109 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Ryo Bondiko wrote...
And I think that what happend between her and Alistair was a little beyond "bickering" and didn't really change (in contrast Aveline and Isabella actually developed a good relationship later) in the course of the game.

Aveline/Isabela is not in any way comparable to Morrigan/Alistair. The DA2 companions who parallel Morrigan and Alistair's relationship, both in magnitude of hatred and opposition of philosophy, are Fenris and Anders. And while Morrigan/Alistair/Leliana was my single favorite party in DA:O by a wide margin, to the point where I'd drag both main LIs around with me even when I too was playing a tank or entropy mage and making them completely redundant, I go out of my way not to group with Fenris and Anders in DA2 regardless of how much they'd compliment my build.

Actually you know, it's the cause that's the problem. Alistair is a templar but he's a really, really bad one, and actually resents the Chantry almost as much as Anders does. Morrigan is an apostate, but she's only interested in her own freedom, and has as much contempt for Circle mages as... well, again, Anders. They fight because they don't like each other personally. She calls him stupid, he calls her mean, and they're often very clever about it, which makes it fun to listen to.

Fenris and Anders aren't clever about it because they're not doing it for fun, and they don't even really hate each other; they hate what the other stands for. Arguments between them aren't about Fenris and Anders, they're about mage freedom. On the rare occasions when you get a banter that isn't about mages, it's pretty civil, and interesting to listen to; Fenris and Merrill talking about Varania, or Anders and Fenris talking about suicide. It's just... those are maddeningly rare because everything in the damn game is so obsessed with the mage/templar issue.

[Sealy]

labargegrrrl wrote...

you know, i just thought about DAA banter for a second. it seemed a bit more abrasive than DAO too, though not to the extent that DA2 had. maybe characters are just more invested in challenging each other when they're stuck together for a longer period.

Possibly it is also the blight hanging over the head as a constant distracter in DA:O, in DA:A and DA2 there really isn't much of a constant threat to them, things happen and they react more in these two. Stressful and no one is forced to bond by being together 24/7.

[Apathy1989]

Lately I create characters and builds so I get optimal happy banter. Little funny, not sure if was biowares intention but I cannot stomach bickering all the time.

[Nyreen]

Fleshdress wrote...

(Izzy doesn't brood at all, you just don't like her cause you were unable to figure out here friend/rival system the first time and she betrayed you,

Don't have time to respond to the entire wall of text, but this stuck out the most. One, I never said Isabela was broody. Two, when I did her companion quests, I won friendship for being snarky, but gained rivalry because I usually ignored her requests during quests because I didn't like doing her dirty work. It's not that I didn't "figure out her rivalry/friendship system", it's simply because my Hawke acted as I wished.

As far as companion interaction goes, my opinion of their banter is nearly the same as of their character, (the exception being Merrill). Carver, Fenris, Anders, and Sebastian are either broody, bitter, or whiny during companion interaction, unless they are interacting with a neutral character such as Varric. DA2 companions are more prone to bitter arguments, (or converting in Sebastian's case) than DAO companions. Even if you believe DAO companions were more fortunate, that doesn't null the fact that DAO companions led some difficult lives and weren't nearly as broody/angsty/bitter as DA2 companions.

[Sealy]

Celestina wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

(Izzy doesn't brood at all, you just don't like her cause you were unable to figure out here friend/rival system the first time and she betrayed you,

Don't have time to respond to the entire wall of text, but this stuck out the most. One, I never said Isabela was broody. Two, when I did her companion quests, I won friendship for being snarky, but gained rivalry because I usually ignored her requests during quests because I didn't like doing her dirty work. It's not that I didn't "figure out her rivalry/friendship system", it's simply because my Hawke acted as I wished.

As far as companion interaction goes, my opinion of their banter is nearly the same as of their character, (the exception being Merrill). Carver, Fenris, Anders, and Sebastian are either broody, bitter, or whiny during companion interaction, unless they are interacting with a neutral character such as Varric. DA2 companions are more prone to bitter arguments, (or converting in Sebastian's case) than DAO companions. Even if you believe DAO companions were more fortunate, that doesn't null the fact that DAO companions led some difficult lives and weren't nearly as broody/angsty/bitter as DA2 companions.

It's very easy for people who don't have as much to be broody about to be less broody. So I have to just disagree. Not all their character interaction are broody or angsty. *shrug* Fenris is sarcastic and a bit flirty, he is serious at times and silly at others. Same for Anders, and Sebastian is mostly exactly as he should be, chaste, sweet and a little preachy and always concerened for everyone elses... soul  guess.

As for Izzy, from a gamer perspective you just take you people on quests they'll enjoy and leave them at home for what they won't. Thats if your breaking the fourth wall, from a roleplaying perspective it sounds like Izzy was being taken along to help with quests and then when asking for assistence in return she got a no, which would not harvest any endearing feelings in the best of people. You can't judge the characters from their surface interactions because they never get to know your Hawke and never get a chance to because you apparently don't try again. 

But back on topic, The characters interact like people interact, and are far closer to one another then anyone in DA:O were.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[Quething]

Celestina wrote...
(or converting in Sebastian's case)

Seb never converts anyone. He never even tries. He answer's Merrill's questions once, when Merrill asks; he tells Isabela that preaching to people never works; he helps Fenris, who is already an Andrastean, to actually get something meaningful out of the faith he already practices.

[Nyreen]

Fleshdress wrote...

Celestina wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

(Izzy doesn't brood at all, you just don't like her cause you were unable to figure out here friend/rival system the first time and she betrayed you,

Don't have time to respond to the entire wall of text, but this stuck out the most. One, I never said Isabela was broody. Two, when I did her companion quests, I won friendship for being snarky, but gained rivalry because I usually ignored her requests during quests because I didn't like doing her dirty work. It's not that I didn't "figure out her rivalry/friendship system", it's simply because my Hawke acted as I wished.

As far as companion interaction goes, my opinion of their banter is nearly the same as of their character, (the exception being Merrill). Carver, Fenris, Anders, and Sebastian are either broody, bitter, or whiny during companion interaction, unless they are interacting with a neutral character such as Varric. DA2 companions are more prone to bitter arguments, (or converting in Sebastian's case) than DAO companions. Even if you believe DAO companions were more fortunate, that doesn't null the fact that DAO companions led some difficult lives and weren't nearly as broody/angsty/bitter as DA2 companions.

It's very easy for people who don't have as much to be broody about to be less broody. So I have to just disagree. Not all their character interaction are broody or angsty. *shrug* Fenris is sarcastic and a bit flirty, he is serious at times and silly at others. Same for Anders, and Sebastian is mostly exactly as he should be, chaste, sweet and a little preachy and always concerened for everyone elses... soul  guess.

As for Izzy, from a gamer perspective you just take you people on quests they'll enjoy and leave them at home for what they won't. Thats if your breaking the fourth wall, from a roleplaying perspective it sounds like Izzy was being taken along to help with quests and then when asking for assistence in return she got a no, which would not harvest any endearing feelings in the best of people. You can't judge the characters from their surface interactions because they never get to know your Hawke and never get a chance to because you apparently don't try again.  

But back on topic, The characters interact like people interact, and are far closer to one another then anyone in DA:O were.

And how do you suppose in my later playthroughs I was able to hand over Isabela if I never got to know her? I got her rivalry level as far as I could, and happily threw her under the bus, several times. Oh and I even befriended her once to make the experience that much crueler. By the end of Act 2 I know enough about her to dislike her.

Also, it's not really saying much when you state DA2 companions are closer. Yes, people who have known each other for several years typically know each other better than people who have knows each other for months. However I still think living, camping, traveling, and battling together for roughly six months is more of a bonding experience that living in the same old city for years. Sten and Shale have a great platonic relationship, Wynne becomes Alistair's surrogate mother and Oghren's drinking buddy, Oghren's mild dislike for Zevran quickly turns into a great friendship, and Leliana dotes anyone who has an ounce a altruism. Morrigan, well, she enjoys alienating herself, being sarcastic, and trolling Sten. There are more disagreements between DA2 companions than there are between DAO companions. Even though they did that to fuel the Mage/Templar debate, it didn't make for particularly entertaining banter.

Modifié par Celestina, 03 novembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Quething wrote...

Celestina wrote...
(or converting in Sebastian's case)

Seb never converts anyone. He never even tries. He answer's Merrill's questions once, when Merrill asks; he tells Isabela that preaching to people never works; he helps Fenris, who is already an Andrastean, to actually get something meaningful out of the faith he already practices.

Oh good - you already wrote what I thought.  Sebastian can get on my nerves for various reasons, but he's hardly a missionary zealot. 

[Wulfram]

Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill with is fairly clearly a, perfectly polite, attempt to convert. "Have you heard the Chant of Light".

[Ghidorah14]

Wulfram wrote...

Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill with is fairly clearly a, perfectly polite, attempt to convert. "Have you heard the Chant of Light".

Yeah. Sebs doesnt really preach, but he does pester the others about the Maker constantly.

[Quething]

Wulfram wrote...

Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill with is fairly clearly a, perfectly polite, attempt to convert. "Have you heard the Chant of Light".

Eh, I wouldn't call that an attempt at conversion. He wants to know if she's heard it - well, of course he does. It's his duty as a Brother (and as an Andrastean generally) to make sure that anyone and everyone has access to the Chant and the ability to pursue the philosophies it teaches. And Merrill is Dalish, so it's quite reasonable to assume she's never had the opportunity to hear it before.

She then says yes, and basically attacks his religion, so he defends it. (Not in a hostile way on either side, but saying "the things you believe don't make sense" is an invitation to, at minimum, debate, which is what he then engages in.)

Past that point, he's aware that she's heard it and decided to stay with her own faith, and he makes no effort to persuade her otherwise; "conversion" is about change, about trying to make someone with one belief give it up for another, and Seb doesn't do that. (Which makes him a bad Andrastean, incidentally, but it's hardly his worst failing from the Chantry perspective).

[KJandrew]

Fenris and Seb get rather friendly. I think Seb gets Fenris coming to the Chantry and they consider taking back Starkhaven together.

[Killjoy Cutter]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

That said... what I really missed out on was the fact that I sometimes felt like Hawke was the outsider. (S)he never gets invited to the card games, or story telling, or whatever. That bothered me. I miss the scenes where everyone is together and having fun, like how Persona 4 did it. There were scenes like the camping scene, the cooking contest, field trip, king's game, etc. where the characters just got together and showed how they all behave in a social setting without the threat of monsters or enemies. I would greatly appreciate similar scenes in future games.

Maybe not the specifics of things like cooking contests, but yes, that's a very good point.  The seemed to be a lot going on that Hawke wasn't visibly a part of. 

[Quething]

It's always a little disappointing when your dog gets invited to card games and you don't, yes. XD

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

It's always a little disappointing when your dog gets invited to card games and you don't, yes. XD

Well, my dog is more outgoing than my Hawke. For regular company, she doesn't need much other than Merrill.

[ReallyRue]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill with is fairly clearly a, perfectly polite, attempt to convert. "Have you heard the Chant of Light".

Yeah. Sebs doesnt really preach, but he does pester the others about the Maker constantly.

I haven't noticed that. The only one I notice him pestering is Fenris, and that's probably because he's more friends with Fenris than the others, and Fenris also shows some interest in it, coupled with doubts. It's more of a two-way thing.

[magelet]

Anders' conversations with other companions got on my nerves, and I even rather like Anders.

It was mostly in the third act though, when that seemed to be all he could talk about. And especially going after people like Aveline who hadn't even openly opposed the mages, or Fenris who is freaking never going to change his mind.

Maybe I just got the worst because I usually had Anders, Fenris and Merrill with me, but I just about had enough of their squabbles. They're all well and good on their own, just not together...

[Sarielle]

magelet wrote...

Anders' conversations with other companions got on my nerves, and I even rather like Anders.

It was mostly in the third act though, when that seemed to be all he could talk about. And especially going after people like Aveline who hadn't even openly opposed the mages, or Fenris who is freaking never going to change his mind.

Tbh, I thought Anders' broken record-ness in Act III was a deliberate way to show how far his obsession (and Justice's influence) had grown. He doesn't want to do any of the things he normally liked to do anymore. "The mage cause" has pretty much consumed him by that point.

[mopotter]

I enjoy both games, but there is a lot in DA:O that I like better, including the feeling of the banter and being able to talk to them when I want, not just specific times. And, yes, it's just my opinion, but it's certainly as valad as anyone elses.

I liked them all individually, but I got really tired of 10 years of complaining and nastiness and (thanks labargegrrrl) Abrasive conversations. I've gotten to the point where I don't take certain characters at the same time just for that reason. DA:O I was always switching them around.

They all play cards together, except maybe Aveline, if I remember her conversation with Donnic right, in their spare time, something people do for enjoyment and something I would have liked to walk in on. But from the banter I've heard between Fenris, Anders and Merril, I can't see it. I just can't see the 3 of them hanging out together, having a drink and shooting the breeze.

I would have liked to see an occasional non mean comment. The only one I can think of is Merrill telling Anders there are kittens available if he wants one.

[mopotter]

Quething wrote...

Ryo Bondiko wrote...
And I think that what happend between her and Alistair was a little beyond "bickering" and didn't really change (in contrast Aveline and Isabella actually developed a good relationship later) in the course of the game.

Aveline/Isabela is not in any way comparable to Morrigan/Alistair. The DA2 companions who parallel Morrigan and Alistair's relationship, both in magnitude of hatred and opposition of philosophy, are Fenris and Anders. And while Morrigan/Alistair/Leliana was my single favorite party in DA:O by a wide margin, to the point where I'd drag both main LIs around with me even when I too was playing a tank or entropy mage and making them completely redundant, I go out of my way not to group with Fenris and Anders in DA2 regardless of how much they'd compliment my build.

Actually you know, it's the cause that's the problem. Alistair is a templar but he's a really, really bad one, and actually resents the Chantry almost as much as Anders does. Morrigan is an apostate, but she's only interested in her own freedom, and has as much contempt for Circle mages as... well, again, Anders. They fight because they don't like each other personally. She calls him stupid, he calls her mean, and they're often very clever about it, which makes it fun to listen to.

Fenris and Anders aren't clever about it because they're not doing it for fun, and they don't even really hate each other; they hate what the other stands for. Arguments between them aren't about Fenris and Anders, they're about mage freedom. On the rare occasions when you get a banter that isn't about mages, it's pretty civil, and interesting to listen to; Fenris and Merrill talking about Varania, or Anders and Fenris talking about suicide. It's just... those are maddeningly rare because everything in the damn game is so obsessed with the mage/templar issue.

Might have hit the nail on the head.  I had fun listening to Alistar and Morrigan, I don't have fun listening to Anders, Fenris and Merril.

[Huntress]

Wulfram wrote...

Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill with is fairly clearly a, perfectly polite, attempt to convert. "Have you heard the Chant of Light".

Thats true and telling fenris the maker might have helped him scape.. arg no Sebastian, the qunari hurted the blood mage and fenris killed every single mercenary to be able to flee.I am totally sure the maker wouldn't have send so many mercenaries to their death.. or did he?

Rofl well what better servant to the maker that a blood-mage?

Morrigan is friend of no one but the warden if and only IF the warden accept her proposal, Wynne should keep her nose out of other people's business, oghren is a drunk, zev is an assasin and mean to poor morrigan, Shale sees humanoids as "weak", sten sees everyone as inferior and on top of that killed a hole family including childrens because he lost his sword ,Alistair is insecure the hole game and Leliana is a bard who can fit anywere.. yes like a big happy family.. rofl.

Modifié par Huntress, 08 novembre 2011 - 09:46 .

[Knight of Dane]

Huntress wrote...

Thats true and telling fenris the maker might have helped him scape.. arg no Sebastian, the qunari hurted the blood mage and fenris killed every single mercenary to be able to flee.I am totally sure the maker wouldn't have send so many mercenaries to their death.. or did he?

Perhaps these mercenaries had to die for Fenris to realize that their kind is scum and so he would unleash the a kind death upon them all and thereby cleanse them from their corrupt suffering.

Huntress also wrote...
... and Leliana is a bard who can fit anywere..

[whykikyouwhy]

Is it possible that Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill being about the Maker has less to do with conversion/preaching and more to do with awkwardness? As in, he isn't sure how to approach her, what the best topic of discussion should be, etc, so he goes with what he is familiar with and what, to him, is something beautiful - a song (albeit one used for worship).

I doubt they would talk about blood magic, let alone blood magic, or the Dalish. I suppose cheese might have been a safe subject though.

[Gervaise]

Well Morrigan told my female Warden she was a true friend (and seemed to mean it) well before the Dark Ritual business. Zevran wasn't mean to her, just brought her down a peg or two occasionally and he teased everyone, it was just his way. Wynne apologised to my Warden for some of her earlier comments but after all was only trying to help. Oghran it is true was a bit vulgar and could be annoying at times but his heart was in the right place. Shale and my Wardens seemed to get on just fine. Sten was really a matter of major cultural differences but respected Warden by the end. As for Alistair, he made the whole journey seem a little less grim, once he got over his grief. And Lelianna kept us entertained around the campfire. Not one big happy family but a pretty good team to have around.
Clearly some posters don't bring out the best in people!

[esper]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Is it possible that Sebastian's first conversation with Merrill being about the Maker has less to do with conversion/preaching and more to do with awkwardness? As in, he isn't sure how to approach her, what the best topic of discussion should be, etc, so he goes with what he is familiar with and what, to him, is something beautiful - a song (albeit one used for worship).

I doubt they would talk about blood magic, let alone blood magic, or the Dalish. I suppose cheese might have been a safe subject though.

I actually think that Sebastian and Merrill was truly interested in talking about their religion with each other. Every religious debate between those twoo actully seemed respectfull enough, and I see no reason why two religious people of diffferent beliefs can't debate their faith as long as it is done properly.

Now blood magic on the other hand...