83 réponses à ce sujet

[Andraste_Reborn]

So, we know from experience that the Joining can kill some would-be Grey Wardens outright. What I'm wondering is how common this is.

In the course of DAO, Awakening and DA2 there are eleven people who can undertake the Joining - the protagonist in the first game, Daveth, Loghain, five of the six companions in the expansion, plus your siblings in DA2. Of those, all but two survive. (Not counting the alternate universe of The Darkspawn Chronicles here, and being murderknifed by Duncan doesn't count either.)

Obviously who lives and who dies is determined by BioWare for plot reasons, but I'm wondering if this is a good guide to how dangerous the Joining is on average. Is it fatal in roughly 20% of cases, or are the people your protagonists know an unusual bunch? We know one person died at Alistair's Joining, but not how many recruits were involved. (For that matter, do we even know the Joining killed him? Alistair doesn't specify, AFAIK, so maybe he was another stabbing victim.)

[Heimdall]

The way Duncan and all the others talk about it, the Joining sounds like it should have closer to a 50% mortality rate. What the real average is, I haven't a clue.

[LobselVith8]

I don't believe it's addressed how common fatalies are with The Joining. It seems to vary, though, given how Alistair said only one member of his group was lost, but I think it's expected that there are going to be casualties because not everyone can handle the taint.

[ReallyRue]

I've always thought it interesting that both Bethany and Carver survive the Joining. Obviously we know why for plot reasons, but it makes me wonder if there is something in the person's blood or DNA or whatever that makes them more resistant to the taint, or adaptive to the Joining or whatever it is.

Also, if dwarves are more resistant (as I imagine they must be, having more contact with the darkspawn and living so close) that would easily account for Oghren and Sigrun's survival.

Edit: Obviously it depends on the playthrough, but you could argue that maybe Avernus' experiments lead to a safer Joining mixture that the Warden uses on the party members in Awakening.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 31 octobre 2011 - 10:49 .

[Malanek]

I get the feeling it depends on how strong the person is in both mind and body.

[Joy Divison]

Plot armor accounts for only 2 dying. The in game characters make it sound like a dangerous undertaking that few people have a chance of surviving.

[megski]

Didn't it give some kind of statistics in the calling? If I remember correctly, I think the wardens were discussing this when they found out the architects plan, but I don't remember specifics.

[WhiteKnyght]

I think it has more to do with a person's health and physical constitution personally. It's like Morrigan said, the Grey Wardens are by nature very healthy.

Look at Oghren, guy may be a drunken lout, but he's strong as an ox and has a cast iron stomach. I don't think he even passes out when he drinks the stuff.

After all. The blood is poison. So think about it, what does it take to survive being poisoned, save an antidote? A strong immune system and a good constitution.

[thats1evildude]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think it has more to do with a person's health and physical constitution personally. It's like Morrigan said, the Grey Wardens are by nature very healthy.

I have to agree with The Grey Nayr. I always thought that the reason the Grey Wardens seek out the most skilled warriors, mages and rogues is because no one else stands a chance of surviving the Joining. It doesn't have a set mortality rate as in "50 per cent of all people who take the Joining survive it." Hence the reason why the Wardens don't conduct mass recruitment campaigns.

As evidence, I'll note that Duncan will refuse to recruit Soris into the Wardens because he doesn't believe Soris has a chance of surviving the ritual. If his odds of survival were 50/50 or something like that, Duncan's argument isn't very logical.

For that matter, Genevieve administered the Joining to Duncan under the belief it would kill him. Her plan doesn't make sense if the Joining has a specific mortality rate.

megski wrote...

Didn't it give some kind of statistics in the calling? If I remember correctly, I think the wardens were discussing this when they found out the architects plan, but I don't remember specifics.

No, I don't recall anything like that. Genevieve implies that the process would kill most of the people in Thedas.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 novembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[megski]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think it has more to do with a person's health and physical constitution personally. It's like Morrigan said, the Grey Wardens are by nature very healthy.

I have to agree with The Grey Nayr. I always thought that the reason the Grey Wardens seek out the most skilled warriors, mages and rogues is because no one else stands a chance of surviving the Joining. It doesn't have a set mortality rate as in "50 per cent of all people who take the Joining survive it.". Hence the reason why the Wardens don't conduct mass recruitment campaigns.

megski wrote...

Didn't it give some kind of statistics in
the calling? If I remember correctly, I think the wardens were
discussing this when they found out the architects plan, but I don't
remember specifics.

No, I don't recall anything like that.

Genevieve administered the Joining to Duncan under the belief it would kill him.

I could have sworn  I saw 2/3 as a number of people that die under the mass joining, but maybe it was just speculation on the forums.  Or maybe I just made it up lol.  

[ejoslin]

megski wrote...

I could have sworn  I saw 2/3 as a number of people that die under the mass joining, but maybe it was just speculation on the forums.  Or maybe I just made it up lol.  

FWIW, 2/3 of the candidates died in the warden's joining, but fewer than that in Alistair's joining so I doubt that it's quite that lethal.

[Malanek]

ejoslin wrote...

megski wrote...

I could have sworn  I saw 2/3 as a number of people that die under the mass joining, but maybe it was just speculation on the forums.  Or maybe I just made it up lol.  

FWIW, 2/3 of the candidates died in the warden's joining, but fewer than that in Alistair's joining so I doubt that it's quite that lethal.

Jory didn't really die because of the joining as such, he died because he was a coward and Duncan was a no compromise sort of guy. Still not sure it was necessary to kill him.

[ejoslin]

Malanek999 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

megski wrote...

I could have sworn  I saw 2/3 as a number of people that die under the mass joining, but maybe it was just speculation on the forums.  Or maybe I just made it up lol.  

FWIW, 2/3 of the candidates died in the warden's joining, but fewer than that in Alistair's joining so I doubt that it's quite that lethal.

Jory didn't really die because of the joining as such, he died because he was a coward and Duncan was a no compromise sort of guy. Still not sure it was necessary to kill him.

Well, that's true.  We don't know if the taint would have killed him or not.  I was trying to be funny but apparently failed

[Heimdall]

thats1evildude wrote...


I have to agree with The Grey Nayr. I always thought that the reason the Grey Wardens seek out the most skilled warriors, mages and rogues is because no one else stands a chance of surviving the Joining. It doesn't have a set mortality rate as in "50 per cent of all people who take the Joining survive it." Hence the reason why the Wardens don't conduct mass recruitment campaigns.

I'm pretty sure the reason the Wardens look for the very best is because they only want the best for the tough job they have.

[mousestalker]

Does the pen and paper rpg give the odds? That might be the closest thing we have to a reliable source on the subject.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I also agree with The Grey Nayr.

I don't think you can use the statistics of the Joinings we've seen as a strong basis for analysis, as the Grey Wardens seem rather select with their candidates. They go for those they believe are the strongest or wield decent magic power.

If you put an entire village of peasants who'd never seen a fight in their lives through the Joining, the casualty rate may be higher than drawing from a pool of proven fighters/mages.

Duncan seems quite adamant about *not* recruiting people he thinks unsuitable (eg. Soris from the CE Origin). I suppose we can debate about whether this is due to Duncan only wanting uberstrong Grey Wardens or because he believes Soris won't survive, but at a time where Ferelden needs all the Wardens it can get you have to wonder why he'd be so picky over mere 'toughness' in an emergency.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Does the pen and paper rpg give the odds? That might be the closest thing we have to a reliable source on the subject.

As it happens is is actually why I asked in the first place . I'm running a campaign where the PCs will (eventually) be undertaking the Joining, and assuming none of them opt to be murderknifed by a senior Warden NPC they're going to have to roll to live.

Unfortunately, the source material seems to assume that the GM will just give player characters plot armor. I want them to be nervous when their character takes hold of the giant goblet full of blood and lyrium and Maker knows what! In the absence of any official information, I think I'll go with a 10% risk of character death - significant, but not so high that it's likely to kill multiple PCs.

Modifié par Andrastee, 01 novembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[Joy Divison]

ejoslin wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

megski wrote...

I could have sworn  I saw 2/3 as a number of people that die under the mass joining, but maybe it was just speculation on the forums.  Or maybe I just made it up lol.  

FWIW, 2/3 of the candidates died in the warden's joining, but fewer than that in Alistair's joining so I doubt that it's quite that lethal.

Jory didn't really die because of the joining as such, he died because he was a coward and Duncan was a no compromise sort of guy. Still not sure it was necessary to kill him.

Well, that's true.  We don't know if the taint would have killed him or not.  I was trying to be funny but apparently failed

Maybe it's me but I'm not seeing Jory surviving the joining

[DreGregoire]

One-quarter to one-third is the actual survival rate of the joining according to DM Guide RPG set # 2.

OP I sent you a PM too.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 01 novembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[SkittlesKat96]

I'm not sure about the statistics and survival rate but it is pretty lethal.

You have to have a really hard mentality and strong mind, Mhairi was a seasoned and very skilled fighter but she still died. Everyone who has gone through the proving in the DA universe that we've seen have all been strong minded/skilled individuals.

Also you have to be strong physically and be healthy too.

[Tylmarande_JD007]

 As Stroud said in DA 2, the joining is not a cure, it's a calling. Just as it is not a life saver, it's a death sentence. Thus making the joining very lethal.
And also, if you've seen (in which case you probably already did) the joining ritual effects, then you can tell how lethal the joining is. It's always a 50-50 scenario.
And in addition to sensing darkspawn and the other benefits of being a grey warden, you have 30 years to live, give or take. 

[GodWood]

DreGregoire wrote...
One-quarter to one-third is the actual survival rate of the joining according to DM Guide RPG set # 2.

So only 1/3 survive?

Excellent. That's exactly what I imagined it as.

[ReallyRue]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think it has more to do with a person's health and physical constitution personally. It's like Morrigan said, the Grey Wardens are by nature very healthy.

I have to agree with The Grey Nayr. I always thought that the reason the Grey Wardens seek out the most skilled warriors, mages and rogues is because no one else stands a chance of surviving the Joining. It doesn't have a set mortality rate as in "50 per cent of all people who take the Joining survive it." Hence the reason why the Wardens don't conduct mass recruitment campaigns.

As evidence, I'll note that Duncan will refuse to recruit Soris into the Wardens because he doesn't believe Soris has a chance of surviving the ritual. If his odds of survival were 50/50 or something like that, Duncan's argument isn't very logical.

For that matter, Genevieve administered the Joining to Duncan under the belief it would kill him. Her plan doesn't make sense if the Joining has a specific mortality rate.

But what about Mhairi? She's a soldier. I can't imagine that she's somehow weaker or got a worse constitution than say, Anders.

[jamesp81]

I imagine there's some element of chance involved or factors not normally seen. Maybe Mhairi had a congenital condition that didn't react well to the taint, but otherwise didn't manifest.

[DreGregoire]

GodWood wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...
One-quarter to one-third is the actual survival rate of the joining according to DM Guide RPG set # 2.

So only 1/3 survive?

Excellent. That's exactly what I imagined it as.

Generally when one says one-quarter to one-third it means it varies but falls in the range of the two. Saying it's one-third and leaving it at that does not give you the true chances. But whatever helps you sleep at night, LOL.