46 réponses à ce sujet

[Made Nightwing]

Now, there is a prevailing opinion that Harbinger is essentially 'Sovereign lite', and there is grounds for agreement on this. Sovereign was dark, mysterious, and beyond comprehension. In comparison, Harbinger just seemed like a cheesy 80's movie villain.

What seemed the clincher for this is the corny 'you have failed, we will find another way' line he gives Shepard at the destruction of the Collector Base, at the conclusion of what most feel is a diatribe similar to 'I'll get you darn kids, next time!'

But I believe that his lines have been taken out of context. BioWare mucked up slightly by giving his voice far too much inflection, allowing his voice to actually display contempt. If his lines were spoken in Sovereign's monotone, Harbinger would be just as terrifying.



Presenting my key evidence as to Harbinger's true machine malevolence is footage from the end run. If you skip to 2:54 *SPOILERS* you will notice that when Harbinger says 'you have failed, etc', he's not actually addressing Shepard as some people think. He's addressing the Collector General, implying that the CG still had some limited autonomy, and informing him that the Collectors have failed in their task, and they are no longer necessary to the Reaper war effort. In this context, Harbinger becomes pretty damn fearsome. He's not a villain ranting about how he lost, he's a chessmaster casually tossing aside a pawn, after genetically mutating that pawn, depriving it of freedom and using it as a slave for fifty thousand years...and informing it that it failed in pretty much the only purpose it had left...and that it was irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I have renewed hope that Harbinger will actually be a pretty decent villain in ME3.

[DoNotIngest]

Nice catch on the CG part.



I thought this would be pointing out that he's a scary muthaf*cka when he briefly appears in the image spam during Arrival.

[Made Nightwing]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Nice catch on the CG part.



I thought this would be pointing out that he's a scary muthaf*cka when he briefly appears in the image spam during Arrival.

I've only played up to the part where you kill Kenson. Hard drive died, and I have to replay ALL my Mass Effect save games again.

[DoNotIngest]

Oh dear, that's not good. Mainly it shows him landing and such, but the background is some nightmarish glow, and his body is completely black and shadowy, with his eyes radiating yellow light. You can tell his size from it.

[Made Nightwing]

@DoNotIngest

I just hope BW takes the 'callous director' route, not the 'mustache twirling villain' route.

[Shotokanguy]

I'm willing to bet 90% of the people who finished ME2 could tell Harbinger was addressing the Collectors when it said that.

It doesn't really make sense if it was talking to Shepard anyway.

[Made Nightwing]

@Shoto, you'd think so, but a lot of people don't catch it. My brother played the endgame through about four times before he realised.

[SnakeStrike8]

'Course Harbinger aces Sovereign.
Sovereign spent decades running around the galaxy and only manages to indoctrinate a few people, never more than a few at a time, and takes advantage of a convenient legend shared by a small part of a race of synthetics to get his job done.
Harbinger mind-controlled an entire race of creatures from lightyears of empty space away. That takes some doing, mates.

[Dhiro]

I kinda thought that was obvious. I got really sad for the CG

[Ryuzetsu]

Harbinger I wouldn't say is more or less menacing then Sovereign. The great part about the Reapers is that any of them could speak for all. While I do enjoy the OP's comparison of Harbinger prattling off comments akin to a Scooby Doo villian, I think for the most part Harbinger redeemed whatever lingering doubts about his cold malevolence in the arrival DLC close. That line where he says, "...your leaders will beg to serve us." Gives me chills to this moment. Also paints a nice probability that some "humans" may already be serving them. Wink, Wink, lookin at you TIM.

[ElitePinecone]

Harbinger's motivations aside, I'd argue the Reapers have still been somewhat... demystified... since ME. They've lost the sense of wondrous terror.

Sovereign was flat, cold, absolutely implacable and beyond understanding. Harby (and it's something in itself that people have given him nicknames, and he's become a meme) just seems almost like a caricature in comparison.

I'm not sure if it's the tone of voice or the writing, but he just seems like a generic 'mechanical villain' and not the terrifying living machine of unstoppable power and intelligence that I thought Sovereign represented.

[Kaiser Shepard]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Harbinger's motivations aside, I'd argue the Reapers have still been somewhat... demystified... since ME. They've lost the sense of wondrous terror.

Well, that's what you get in an age where the masses cry "PLOT HOLE!" at everything not explicitly explained to them.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
I fully agree with your observation - I've long thought Harbinger was addressing the Collector general with that statement.

The problem is not that, as far as I'm concerned, but his trash talk in combat. Even his appearance in Arrival spectacularly fails to reach Sovereign's level of uncaring menace.

[Rune-Chan]

If they had taken away Harbingers lines from combat (everything he says addressing Shepard while fighting the controlled Collectors), I'd have found him a lot more impressive.

I liked his ending speech, as well as what he says in Arrival.

His voice is nowhere near as wesome as Sovreign's though.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 01 novembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[Aurora313]

Harbinger's voice and tone have shown emotion, something the Reapers saw as weakness. So, if they lose the inflictions and contempt, then he would sound as menacing as Sovereign, but at the same time he would lose what made him sound like 'Harbinger'.

I also have the theory that the emotion shown in Harbinger's voice was done purposefully, making it easier to distinguish between the two, but quite frankly, the monotone of Sovereign as more of an impact. No matter how many times I play it, Virmire's encounter still sends shivers down my spine.

[RogueState]

Dhiro wrote...

I kinda thought that was obvious. I got really sad for the CG

Me too, I actually feel really sorry for the poor CG.

And I always assumed Harbinger was talking to the CG, it just seemed obvious to me!

[ElitePinecone]

Aurora313 wrote...
No matter how many times I play it, Virmire's encounter still sends shivers down my spine.

This. Actual chills. 

[Rokku-X]

I've always been of the opinion that he was addressing the CG too. That said, Harbinger might be a little bit more imposing if he talked less, but then he just wouldn't be Harbinger. And we wouldn't have any great one liners like "assuming direct control".

[CrutchCricket]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

'Course Harbinger aces Sovereign.
Sovereign spent decades running around the galaxy and only manages to indoctrinate a few people, never more than a few at a time, and takes advantage of a convenient legend shared by a small part of a race of synthetics to get his job done.
Harbinger mind-controlled an entire race of creatures from lightyears of empty space away. That takes some doing, mates.

Mind controlled an entire race? You do realize the Collectors were built/repurposed for the sole reason of doing what they did and every major organ was "replaced by tech" by the Reapers? Harbinger didn't mind control anything. Hell he probably built the Collectors himself.

Anyway I'm not detecting as much emotion in Harbinger's voice as some people claim but I did think he sounded more organic compared to Sovereign's mechanized verbal terror (in fact a great deal about the Collectors appeared organic). And he talked too much during combat. Sadly this made him (and the other Reapers) less menacing. The only way to reconcile this with keeping the Reapers as Mecha Cthulu is to admit Harbinger was not a good Reaper to begin with.

[Jog0907]

IMO Sovereign was scarier but Harbinger truly gave them purpose beyond "we're the evil guys and we want to kill you" which in my mind makes harbinger the better reaper

[CrutchCricket]

Jog0907 wrote...

IMO Sovereign was scarier but Harbinger truly gave them purpose beyond "we're the evil guys and we want to kill you" which in my mind makes harbinger the better reaper

It didn't "give them purpose" it just explained/revealed that purpose to us. This, to some is a step in the wrong direction.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 novembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[Jog0907]

precisely by revealing their purpose (kinda "giving" them one since its the one to reveal it to the player) it moved the reapers beyond generic galaxy destroyers, cant see how that is a step in the wrong direction but everyone has a different opinion.

[Rokku-X]

Jog0907 wrote...

precisely by revealing their purpose (kinda "giving" them one since its the one to reveal it to the player) it moved the reapers beyond generic galaxy destroyers, cant see how that is a step in the wrong direction but everyone has a different opinion.

It's a tossup between if you want to acknowledge them as being senseless killing machines that are intended to incite fear, or a legitimate force in the galaxy with a story element.

I think the people saying that it's a step in the wrong direction are talking about it in the sense of "we are the reapers, fear us" mentality. Giving them any sort of emotions, ambitions, goals and purpose inherently humanizes them, which makes it much, much more difficult to fear them.  Things are far more frightening when we lack the ability to understand them, empathize with, or comprehend their actions.

Modifié par Rokku-X, 01 novembre 2011 - 05:23 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Sovereign wass an idiot. He risked his whole plan by controlling one person (Saren) and then ended up dead. At least the Harbinger lives after assuming control.