46 réponses à ce sujet

[sharkboy421]

Rokku-X wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

precisely by revealing their purpose (kinda "giving" them one since its the one to reveal it to the player) it moved the reapers beyond generic galaxy destroyers, cant see how that is a step in the wrong direction but everyone has a different opinion.

It's a tossup between if you want to acknowledge them as being senseless killing machines that are intended to incite fear, or a legitimate force in the galaxy with a story element.

I think the people saying that it's a step in the wrong direction are talking about it in the sense of "we are the reapers, fear us" mentality. Giving them any sort of emotions, ambitions, goals and purpose inherently humanizes them, which makes it much, much more difficult to fear them.  Things are far more frightening when we lack the ability to understand them, empathize with, or comprehend their actions.

My thoughts exactly.  With Sovereign, there was no explantion only a real sense of dread.  And while revealing what the purpose behind the Reapers' actions is terrifing in its own right, its not quite the same as having no idea. 

Please forgive the comparison but I am reminded of Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight.  Joker is never explained in the film other than he is evil.  To me, that made him much more frightening; there was no understanding his motive or desires.  I got that same feeling Sovereign. 

[ADLegend21]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Now, there is a prevailing opinion that Harbinger is essentially 'Sovereign lite', and there is grounds for agreement on this. Sovereign was dark, mysterious, and beyond comprehension. In comparison, Harbinger just seemed like a cheesy 80's movie villain.

What seemed the clincher for this is the corny 'you have failed, we will find another way' line he gives Shepard at the destruction of the Collector Base, at the conclusion of what most feel is a diatribe similar to 'I'll get you darn kids, next time!'

But I believe that his lines have been taken out of context. BioWare mucked up slightly by giving his voice far too much inflection, allowing his voice to actually display contempt. If his lines were spoken in Sovereign's monotone, Harbinger would be just as terrifying.



Presenting my key evidence as to Harbinger's true machine malevolence is footage from the end run. If you skip to 2:54 *SPOILERS* you will notice that when Harbinger says 'you have failed, etc', he's not actually addressing Shepard as some people think. He's addressing the Collector General, implying that the CG still had some limited autonomy, and informing him that the Collectors have failed in their task, and they are no longer necessary to the Reaper war effort. In this context, Harbinger becomes pretty damn fearsome. He's not a villain ranting about how he lost, he's a chessmaster casually tossing aside a pawn, after genetically mutating that pawn, depriving it of freedom and using it as a slave for fifty thousand years...and informing it that it failed in pretty much the only purpose it had left...and that it was irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I have renewed hope that Harbinger will actually be a pretty decent villain in ME3.

[CyberDirectorFreedom]

Harbinger was scared if you ask me. He talks about how you're nothing during fights, but He is watching all the fights that you're having. He pays too much attention to what Shepards doing. If He was really content with His plans, he wouldn't need to take control of any of his collectors. He'd assume you would fail in the end, so what do you matter.

[avengeASTRID]

Watching it again after reading the OP, I get it now. Although it makes me feel a bit stupid I didn't get it before, I'm glad I came in here and read the OP. Makes awesome sense and thanks for taking the time to inform some of the people who didn't notice it the first time through.

I always thought that Harbinger, unlike Sovereign, didn't fully underestimate Shepard's ability. Sovereign was more passive because what had Shepard done to it to prove otherwise. It wasn't until Shepard takes down a reaper that the other reapers seem to blink and say, "well, okay then." Harbinger comes and thinks he'll just manipulate the Collectors into killing Shepard and be done with him, no big deal. Shepard dies, comes back, and, like Garrus points out, all it did was "... just pissed you off."

Sure, I think Harbinger strikes less fear because of the voice. I also think Harbinger knew that Shepard was a force to watch closely.

[CrutchCricket]

Sorry but I don't think the "Harbinger was more cautious" interpretation of his voice really flies. As the OP and so many others point out "you have failed" is delivered to the Collector General. And it is delivered in precisely the same tone and voice as any line said to Shepard. If the likes of "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" is Harbinger being cautious, why does he sound the same when talking to what amounts to his action figure? And why is he saying "you failed" at all? The Collector General was not only his pawn but literally his puppet. He didn't fail anything. Harbinger himself just didn't have enough micro to ensure victory. I know the line is there for our benefit but it makes no sense in universe.

Bottom line is Sovereign's voice had all the right qualities of assured dominance and utter indifference that Mecha Cthulu would have. Indeed you could practically feel its contempt at having to communicate in such a primitive form. But most importantly, his voice sounded mechanical and artificial. I don't mind any of the follies Harbinger makes but the fact that his voice is just generically "deep=evil sounding" and organic disappoints me.
Note: I've just rewatched the end scene of Arrival and while there is a hint of voice synthesizing it's still not quite there. Also it's strained at times like the voice actor has to work at getting it that deep. I'd buy that voice for a Decepticon. But not a Reaper.

And less is definitely more when it comes to Reapers. Consider:
Sovereign: You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it.
Harbinger: You fight against inevitability. Your civilization will fall. Dust in cosmic wind. Leaders beg to serve us. Die in vain and agony yada yada.
Harbinger's totally ranting exactly like what the OP was saying- a cartoon villain. Contrast it with Sovereign. Simple. Terrifying.

All in all what conclusion do I draw from this? Harbinger is new(. Although why the Reapers saw fit to entrust the new guy with their means of reproduction is beyond me. Maybe a different more experienced Reaper controlled the Collectors when they took Shepard down and once he was dead they felt confident enough to hand it off to Harbinger. By the time Shep came back, they were already on the move and had to play it as is.

[avengeASTRID]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Sorry but I don't think the "Harbinger was more cautious" interpretation of his voice really flies. As the OP and so many others point out "you have failed" is delivered to the Collector General. And it is delivered in precisely the same tone and voice as any line said to Shepard. If the likes of "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" is Harbinger being cautious, why does he sound the same when talking to what amounts to his action figure? And why is he saying "you failed" at all? The Collector General was not only his pawn but literally his puppet. He didn't fail anything. Harbinger himself just didn't have enough micro to ensure victory. I know the line is there for our benefit but it makes no sense in universe.

Bottom line is Sovereign's voice had all the right qualities of assured dominance and utter indifference that Mecha Cthulu would have. Indeed you could practically feel its contempt at having to communicate in such a primitive form. But most importantly, his voice sounded mechanical and artificial. I don't mind any of the follies Harbinger makes but the fact that his voice is just generically "deep=evil sounding" and organic disappoints me.
Note: I've just rewatched the end scene of Arrival and while there is a hint of voice synthesizing it's still not quite there. Also it's strained at times like the voice actor has to work at getting it that deep. I'd buy that voice for a Decepticon. But not a Reaper.

And less is definitely more when it comes to Reapers. Consider:
Sovereign: You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it.
Harbinger: You fight against inevitability. Your civilization will fall. Dust in cosmic wind. Leaders beg to serve us. Die in vain and agony yada yada.
Harbinger's totally ranting exactly like what the OP was saying- a cartoon villain. Contrast it with Sovereign. Simple. Terrifying.

All in all what conclusion do I draw from this? Harbinger is new(. Although why the Reapers saw fit to entrust the new guy with their means of reproduction is beyond me. Maybe a different more experienced Reaper controlled the Collectors when they took Shepard down and once he was dead they felt confident enough to hand it off to Harbinger. By the time Shep came back, they were already on the move and had to play it as is.

I just played through ME1 again, and I clearly remember a similar speech from Sovereign. You just happened to pick the coolest line he said : ] but he did give a "you are will all perish or surrender" speech.

[Homebound]

i dont know what it is. Sovereign instilled more fear than Harbinger ever could.

[ADLegend21]

Hellbound555 wrote...

i dont know what it is. Sovereign instilled more fear than Harbinger ever could.

I think it's beause we didn't know the Reapers were ships. That and Sovereign didn't show up until the back half of the Game, Harbiger was allup in our grills tring to kill us every tie we saw a collector. just my thought on it.

[Homebound]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

i dont know what it is. Sovereign instilled more fear than Harbinger ever could.

I think it's beause we didn't know the Reapers were ships. That and Sovereign didn't show up until the back half of the Game, Harbiger was allup in our grills tring to kill us every tie we saw a collector. just my thought on it.

harbinger reminds me of prof. drakken from the old kim possible cartoons now that i think about it.

[Drone223]

If Harbinger is to be in ME3 I want "Arrival Harbinger" not "ME2 Harbinger"

[CrutchCricket]

avengeASTRID wrote...
I just played through ME1 again, and I clearly remember a similar speech from Sovereign. You just happened to pick the coolest line he said : ] but he did give a "you are will all perish or surrender" speech.

Actually I just watched that scene again (with no audio to boot) and it was still more chilling. I didn't see Sovereign make any kind of surrender comment. There is no surrender. There might've been something like what you're saying in another dialogue option but the fact remains that even without the voice effects I mentioned Sovereign still inspires more terror. The words themselves are the merit of the author for better or worse. Regardless Harbinger does not come close to Sovereign's levels of horror.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:17 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Made Nightwing wrote...

What seemed the clincher for this is the corny 'you have failed, we will find another way' line he gives Shepard at the destruction of the Collector Base,

Harbinger doesn't say that to Shepard. 

It says that to the Collector "General". 



PS:  Neither Sovereign nor Harbinger are frightening in the slightest.  The whole "elder gods you cannot comprehend and cannot stop" thing falls completely flat with me.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Rokku-X]

This idea that Harbinger must be new or weaker because of his voice is just like.. what? I mean, seriously. I can get behind the idea that he's less intimidating than Sovereign because of his voice, but the implication that he's somehow less effective, weaker, etc, is just balls to the walls batty.

The only "evidence" that's been put out to support that idea is:

"His voice isn't as mechanical or intimidating. He must be newer/incompetent/weaker/etc"

Just..what? I have to ask, the people going by this idea, if you see a six year old girl walking down the street with one of those Darth Vader helmets with the voice changers, when she speaks do you go: "Oh god, this is the last day of my life. Listen to this child's voice, clearly she must be filled with more malice and terrible power than anyone else, and I am going to die here, now."? Would you walk up to someone that looked like they bench pressed cattle in their free time and punch them in the face, just because they had the voice of a young Michael Jackson?

"Harbinger failed, etc etc"

Uh..duh? I don't know about anyone else, but I find it really tough to imagine that there could've been a third game if Harbinger had won. I don't think Shepard's entire team dying and the collectors sucking up a huge chunk of the human race and building a new reaper with it really makes for a good sequel.

Harbinger indirectly lost, he didn't win, but he was only acting through a puppet race. We really don't know anything about Harbinger, aside from the fact that he's a reaper with a different voice. The Collectors were their own species, and while he could control them individually and as a hive mind, he couldn't exactly empower the entire race and go on a killing spree devoid of any obstacles. Shepard and co. nullified most of their advantages and took them out, it's not as though they fought Harbinger directly and he turned tail and ran.

tl;dr, etc, We actually know very little about Harbinger. Determining that he's weaker or incompetent because of his voice is just dumb.

Modifié par Rokku-X, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Labrev]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Presenting my key evidence as to Harbinger's true machine malevolence is footage from the end run. If you skip to 2:54 *SPOILERS* you will notice that when Harbinger says 'you have failed, etc', he's not actually addressing Shepard as some people think. He's addressing the Collector General, implying that the CG still had some limited autonomy, and informing him that the Collectors have failed in their task, and they are no longer necessary to the Reaper war effort. In this context, Harbinger becomes pretty damn fearsome.

I can't check out the clip where I am right now, but didn't he say, "Human, you have failed" - ?

Besides that, saying "That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction" is what he says to you during gameplay and of humans on Horizon as well.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Presenting my key evidence as to Harbinger's true machine malevolence is footage from the end run. If you skip to 2:54 *SPOILERS* you will notice that when Harbinger says 'you have failed, etc', he's not actually addressing Shepard as some people think. He's addressing the Collector General, implying that the CG still had some limited autonomy, and informing him that the Collectors have failed in their task, and they are no longer necessary to the Reaper war effort. In this context, Harbinger becomes pretty damn fearsome.

I can't check out the clip where I am right now, but didn't he say, "Human, you have failed" - ?

Besides that, saying "That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction" is what he says to you during gameplay and of humans on Horizon as well.

"Human, you have failed" and "you have failed, we will find another way" are entirely different lines spoken by Harbinger at different times.  The latter is clearly addressed to the "General" just before Harbinger breaks contact with the creature in the moments before its death.

[CrutchCricket]

Rokku-X wrote...

This idea that Harbinger must be new or weaker because of his voice is just like.. what? I mean, seriously. I can get behind the idea that he's less intimidating than Sovereign because of his voice, but the implication that he's somehow less effective, weaker, etc, is just balls to the walls batty.

The only "evidence" that's been put out to support that idea is:

"His voice isn't as mechanical or intimidating. He must be newer/incompetent/weaker/etc"

Just..what? I have to ask, the people going by this idea, if you see a six year old girl walking down the street with one of those Darth Vader helmets with the voice changers, when she speaks do you go: "Oh god, this is the last day of my life. Listen to this child's voice, clearly she must be filled with more malice and terrible power than anyone else, and I am going to die here, now."? Would you walk up to someone that looked like they bench pressed cattle in their free time and punch them in the face, just because they had the voice of a young Michael Jackson?

"Harbinger failed, etc etc"

Uh..duh? I don't know about anyone else, but I find it really tough to imagine that there could've been a third game if Harbinger had won. I don't think Shepard's entire team dying and the collectors sucking up a huge chunk of the human race and building a new reaper with it really makes for a good sequel.

Harbinger indirectly lost, he didn't win, but he was only acting through a puppet race. We really don't know anything about Harbinger, aside from the fact that he's a reaper with a different voice. The Collectors were their own species, and while he could control them individually and as a hive mind, he couldn't exactly empower the entire race and go on a killing spree devoid of any obstacles. Shepard and co. nullified most of their advantages and took them out, it's not as though they fought Harbinger directly and he turned tail and ran.

tl;dr, etc, We actually know very little about Harbinger. Determining that he's weaker or incompetent because of his voice is just dumb.

I assume you're attempting to refute my post so allow me to retort.

I never said, "his voice is less menacing, therefore he sucks". At least not in the sense of his ingame competence. That part was derived from a comparison between Sovereign's speech and Harbinger's at Arrival and in that case I was referring to the writing not the delivery. Voice or not, Sovereign comes off as much more confident and most importantly seems to actually think at a higher level than organics. Notice how he never addresses them personally, only generally, and marginally at best. Subtleties like those really sell the "you cannot comprehend" thing. Harbinger on the other hand just makes generic threats with none of that subtle "otherness" Sovereign possessed.

I speculated an in-universe explanation for this: Harbinger is simply a newer Reaper. Maybe he's the Prothean Reaper. And new in most cases does imply inexperienced (but not necessarily incompentent). And "new=inexperienced" is the basic assumption behind why you don't trust a five year old with a newborn. "Incompentent", "weaker" etc were all assumptions you drew from my post. None were there to begin with. But for the record he did fail. He failed to stop Shepard, he lost the new Reaper and he lost the Collectors. That's a failure for the Reapers. Sovereign failed to open the Citadel too. Would've been hard to have a game if he did open it, right? Careful when you mix in-universe reasoning with simple game marketing.

[CrutchCricket]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
I can't check out the clip where I am right now, but didn't he say, "Human, you have failed" - ?

Besides that, saying "That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction" is what he says to you during gameplay and of humans on Horizon as well.

The line said to Shepard is "Human. You've changed nothing. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through distruction. Cue Shepard cheesing it to the Normandy.

"You have failed. We will find another way. Releasing control" is said to the Collector General just before sh!t blows up.

I don't see how people can confuse the two.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:42 .

[Rokku-X]

It was not directed solely at you, though you do make a good rebuttal. However, my point was simply that people are attempting to infer far too much about Harbinger based on his voice alone, and that it shouldn't be a determining factor in his identity as a reaper. Sure, he talks more, but that could simply be any number of factors, in fact, I'd wager it's probably just characterization. Reapers aren't a hive mind collectively, and BioWare was probably using the differences between Harb and Sovereign to show that to some degree, they're still individuals.

My point is, quite simply, that people are assuming far too much about Harbinger based on his voice and the Collector's inability to resist Shepard, even with his controlling of them. Harbinger could be, as his name might suggest, nothing more than a messenger, or he could be one of the oldest, meanest, and strongest reapers alive.

We don't really know either way.

[CrutchCricket]

Hey all we've got at this point is assumptions and speculation. The latter extends past its reach all the time. As long as the assumptions are reasonable and the deductions follow, speculations will be valid, even if it turns out they're wrong. Oh well. 5 months to go.

[Gabey5]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Harbinger's motivations aside, I'd argue the Reapers have still been somewhat... demystified... since ME. They've lost the sense of wondrous terror.

Sovereign was flat, cold, absolutely implacable and beyond understanding. Harby (and it's something in itself that people have given him nicknames, and he's become a meme) just seems almost like a caricature in comparison.

I'm not sure if it's the tone of voice or the writing, but he just seems like a generic 'mechanical villain' and not the terrifying living machine of unstoppable power and intelligence that I thought Sovereign represented.

All games of not have memes that does not mean they are less frighteneing.I think mass effect 3 will set things straight as we see our fleets and world burn, not able to do a thing. 

But yes, less taunts and no ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL every time they take a host should make things better