545 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Yes it's true. And here's why.

1. She condemns Merrill for using blood magic. Yet how do you think she was able to prolong Mahariel's life after he/she was tainted and inevetiably die or be recruited? The poison travels through the blood after all. And the Dalish aren't the Chantry, they have no laws explicitly forbidding blood magic.

2. She 'warns' the whole clan about Merrill and demonizes her(pun intended) to them. Which leads to Pol's death, and she acts smug about it. Merrill grieved more for Pol than she did. Merrill wasn't even living with them anymore so there was no reason to warn.

3. Marethari deliberately becomes an abomination to protect Merrill because she knew what the mirror would do if completed, when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start. And this little screw up can lead to the death of her whole tribe.

The whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari were just fair and honest.

I never thought I'd say this but Zathrian had better character than she does.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 01 novembre 2011 - 02:04 .

[Heimdall]

1) Does not really put Marethari at blame for anything but possibly being hypocritical. If it was true, which I doubt, I don't see why healing magic wouldn't be able to delay the taint, seeing as it's a poison.

2) She wasn't smug, and I was under the impression she had been warning the clan about the dangers of Merrill's blood magic since before she left.

3) Merrill wouldn't have listened.

The guy who lets generations of human beings suffer out of grudge? Really? He was flat out malicious.

[Arthur Cousland]

I just wonder with more development time, if this scenario would have been fleshed out better.

With Merethari being the leader and spiritual guide for her clan, it doesn't make sense for her to throw her life away like she does just to protect Merrill. That leaves the clan with no keeper and an inexperienced first.

Since Merethari insists that Merrill abandon her pursuit of restoring the eluvian, why wouldn't she respect the wishes of her clan's keeper and assume that Merethari knows more than Merrill about the situation? In this case, Merrill seems like a rebellious daughter who thinks she knows more than her mother and like a spoiled brat, goes off to do her own thing.  With Merethari being the keeper, it should be her call whether or not the eluvian is restored.  Rather than simply leave her clan, Merrill should have explained things to her clan and if they still refused her help, the quest should have ended there.

After Merrill leaves her old clan, why bother to keep trying to restore the eluvian other than to try to prove Merethari wrong?  If the dalish don't want her help, then why force it on them?  If the mirror is fixed and working properly, what then?  Would Merrill drag it back to the dalish camp with a giant bow on it and say, "Merry Christmas!" and rejoin the clan that doesn't want anything to do with her?

In this scenario, you have two people who are stubborn and in the end, it has distasterous results.  Merethari seems to expect Merrill to abandon the mirror and come running back to her, while Merrill wants to restore the mirror just to prove Merethari wrong, and is too proud to give up her quest.  This is a lesson in pride and the demon played them both.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[TJPags]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I just wonder with more development time, if this scenario would have been fleshed out better.

With Merethari being the leader and spiritual guide for her clan, it doesn't make sense for her to throw her life away like she does just to protect Merrill. That leaves the clan with no keeper or first.

Since Merethari insists that Merrill abandon her pursuit of restoring the eluvian, why wouldn't she respect the wishes of her clan's keeper and assume that Merethari knows more than Merrill about the situation? In this case, Merrill seems like a rebellious daughter who thinks she knows more than her mother and like a spoiled brat, goes off to do her own thing.

A lot of things in DA2 would have been better with more development . . . not the least being charcter interactions.

As for the bolded part - yes, exactly.  Merrill's childish "I know better then my elders" routine is what led to Maretheri's death (although, to be honest, she shouldn't have gone to that demon - should have just sealed up the cave and/or guarded it from Merrill) and the end of the events.

[WhiteKnyght]

Lord Aesir wrote...

1) Does not really put Marethari at  blame for anything but possibly being hypocritical. If it was true, which I doubt, I don't see why healing magic wouldn't be able to delay the taint, seeing as it's a poison.

2) She wasn't smug, and I was under the impression she had been warning the clan about the dangers of Merrill's blood magic since before she left.

3) Merrill wouldn't have listened.

The guy who lets generations of human beings suffer out of grudge? Really? He was flat out malicious.

1) Rember how Avernus kept the taint at bay? Blood magic. And how Merrill purged the taint from the hard? Blood magic. A lot of lyrium would work too, but the Chantry keeps tight control of the trade and I doubt the Dalish have carta connections.

2) She was so smug. She all but had a smirk on her face when she said that she had warned them. She didn't care at all that Pol died because he was scared of Merrill after she warned him. She knew Pol was raised as an Andrastian and she knows how much they fear blood magic. That situation could have been
handled a lot better by her.

3) Says who? Marethari never said anything and just gave Merrill the impression that she just hated it because of what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel. If she had said that the portal would release a demon who would possess her, she might well have listened. Merrill's ignorance was Marethari's fault.

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I just wonder with more development time, if this scenario would have been fleshed out better.

With Merethari being the leader and spiritual guide for her clan, it doesn't make sense for her to throw her life away like she does just to protect Merrill. That leaves the clan with no keeper or first.

Since Merethari insists that Merrill abandon her pursuit of restoring the eluvian, why wouldn't she respect the wishes of her clan's keeper and assume that Merethari knows more than Merrill about the situation? In this case, Merrill seems like a rebellious daughter who thinks she knows more than her mother and like a spoiled brat, goes off to do her own thing.

Her whole life Merrill had it pounded into her psyche by Marethari to restore and protect Elvhen lore and artifacts. Marethari didn't properly warn her and gave the impression that it was simply a prejudice against the mirror, not an actual danger.

It's like Flemeth did with Morrigan. She raised her to be that way and cannot expect her to be any less.

TJPags wrote...

A lot of things in DA2 would have been better with more development . . . not the least being charcter interactions.

As for the bolded part - yes, exactly.  Merrill's childish "I know better then my elders" routine is what led to Maretheri's death (although, to be honest, she shouldn't have gone to that demon - should have just sealed up the cave and/or guarded it from Merrill) and the end of the events.

Marethari contradicted something she had taught Merrill religiously for her whole life and never gave a good reason except a hint of personal bias. Arguably the whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari had just told the freaking truth.

Also there are plenty of times when younger people do know better than their elders. Loghain had a good thirty years on the Warden and look who was right in their little dispute.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 01 novembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

Good... Good... come to the Merrill-mancing side OP... we have cookies... XD

[TJPags]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

A lot of things in DA2 would have been better with more development . . . not the least being charcter interactions.

As for the bolded part - yes, exactly.  Merrill's childish "I know better then my elders" routine is what led to Maretheri's death (although, to be honest, she shouldn't have gone to that demon - should have just sealed up the cave and/or guarded it from Merrill) and the end of the events.

Marethari contradicted something she had taught Merrill religiously for her whole life and never gave a good reason except a hint of personal bias. Arguably the whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari had just told the freaking truth.

Also there are plenty of times when younger people do know better than their elders. Loghain had a good thirty years on the Warden and look who was right in their little dispute.

She's a spoiled child.  She listens to what she wants to listen to.  She's told by Maretheri not to screw with the mirror - one which almost killed one of her clan (the Dalish Warden) and turned another into a ghoul.  She does it anyway.  If I'm not mistaken, Hawke can tell her to stop also - and she keeps going.

At the end of the day, sure Maretheri didn't have to screw with the demon - there were other options - but if Merrill had listened, and stopped her foolishness, she doesn't get cast out, Maretheri doesn't die, etc. etc.

Oh, and btw - what happens to the mirror at the end?  I don't recall (seriously, I don't).

[Xilizhra]

Oh, and btw - what happens to the mirror at the end? I don't recall (seriously, I don't).

She lets go of the obsession on the friendship path. The rivalry path isn't worth recounting because it's ****.

[Joy Divison]

TJPags wrote...

At the end of the day, sure Maretheri didn't have to screw with the demon - there were other options - but if Merrill had listened, and stopped her foolishness, she doesn't get cast out, Maretheri doesn't die, etc. etc.

Maretheri becoming an abomination is not on Merrill. Merrill not listening may have been myopic and self-defeating but Maretheri's "solution" was utter stupidity and carelessness and unbefiting of a keeper.

[labargegrrrl]

i don't agree that Marethari is using blood magic...there's really no evidence of that. the Dalish have magic that probably wouldn't be smiled on by the Circle, as do people like Flemmeth or Morigan, but that doesn't make it blood magic automatically. casually inferring that Marethari is using blood magic is a stretch.

but she coddles Merril too much, i think. trying to lecture and persuade and even saddling Hawke with her just because she doesn't want Merril to be exiled and alone. she should have just taken the tough-love approach. destroyed the mirror herself and told Merril she could either give up on deamons/blood magic, or get abandoned by the clan in the middle of nowhere.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I think if she really cared, she wouldn't have let Merrilll do what she did for so long, that's why I think marethari was possessed longer than what is seen in Act 3.

[Urzon]

I think the demon played them both. He played Merrill on her pride of possibly saving the elves, and he played Marethari on her pride of being a good Keeper.

It was able to turn Merrill into a blood mage; which got her exiled from the clan, and it forced her into relying on blood magic and his knownledge to finish the mirror. It also got Marethari to play her role by making her exile Merrill for "the good of the clan".

The real question is, who was the true target? Was it Merrill in the possibly freedom the demon could get from the finished mirror, or was it Marethari in that she made herself into an abomination to save Merrill (and the clan from Merrill's actions)?

I'm leaning in towards the Keeper being the true target, with Merrill being the pawn. Either way the demon could have two possible escape routes, but its own pride got itself killed. It could have easily walked away from the camp after it possessed the Keeper.

[ohnotherancor]

TJPags wrote...
Oh, and btw - what happens to the mirror at the end?  I don't recall (seriously, I don't).

The friendship path ends with her concluding that things would've been better if her clan listened to her since she was just trying to help them and she keeps the mirror in her house.

The rivalry path ends with her smashing the mirror and concluding that Hawke/her clan was right the entire time; she views the mirror as a dangerous object and asks Hawke what she should do with her life now.

[Northern Sun]

When this comes up I like to quote Mordin in defense of Merrill:
"Not guilty. But responsible. Her death not my work. Just…reaction to it."

[Heimdall]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1) Rember how Avernus kept the taint at bay? Blood magic. And how Merrill purged the taint from the hard? Blood magic. A lot of lyrium would work too, but the Chantry keeps tight control of the trade and I doubt the Dalish have carta connections.

2) She was so smug. She all but had a smirk on her face when she said that she had warned them. She didn't care at all that Pol died because he was scared of Merrill after she warned him. She knew Pol was raised as an Andrastian and she knows how much they fear blood magic. That situation could have been
handled a lot better by her.

3) Says who? Marethari never said anything and just gave Merrill the impression that she just hated it because of what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel. If she had said that the portal would release a demon who would possess her, she might well have listened. Merrill's ignorance was Marethari's fault.

1) And nothing you've said indicates blood magic is the only thing that can surpress the taint temporarily.  Maybe it's the only thing that could suppress it for a very long time, like Avernus, but healing magic could provide a more short term solution as surely as lyrium.

2) Nope, saw none of that.  She was not smug and she was certainly not pleased by Pol's death.  Marethari told the clan that Merrill was engaging in foul and dangerous practices that included consorting with demons.  All of which was true.  I'd think it more irresponsible of her to not tell the clan to steer clear of Merrill.

3) Sure, because something that killed one of her close friends and turned the other into a ghoul couldn't possibly be hazardous.  Honestly, Merrill should have known better than to be messing with that thing period.  Marethari warned Merrill not to perform blood magic, she did it anyway.  Marethari warned Merril not to consort with demons, but she did it anyway.  There is no shortage of precedence for Merrill not listening to what Marethari says.

[Saberchic]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yes it's true. And here's why.

1. She condemns Merrill for using blood magic. Yet how do you think she was able to prolong Mahariel's life after he/she was tainted and inevetiably die or be recruited? The poison travels through the blood after all. And the Dalish aren't the Chantry, they have no laws explicitly forbidding blood magic.

2. She 'warns' the whole clan about Merrill and demonizes her(pun intended) to them. Which leads to Pol's death, and she acts smug about it. Merrill grieved more for Pol than she did. Merrill wasn't even living with them anymore so there was no reason to warn.

3. Marethari deliberately becomes an abomination to protect Merrill because she knew what the mirror would do if completed, when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start. And this little screw up can lead to the death of her whole tribe.

The whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari were just fair and honest.

I never thought I'd say this but Zathrian had better character than she does.

1. There's no proof of blood magic being used.

2. I believe she warned them against Merrill before Hawke even met her as most are extremely hostile to her when we meet her. I see that as being responsible. Demons are a threat to them. They don't have templars hanging around. Merrill is a danger if she is willingly consorting with them. I'm sorry, but the clan does have a right to know about that kind of danger.

3. Merrill would not have listened. In fact, she didn't. Marethari did warn her (as can be read in her short story). For some inexplicable reason, she's rather stubborn about the mirror and its dangers even after witnessing the tragedy herself with Tamlen and Mahariel. Hawke can talk to her and try to reason with her as well, and she still does not listen.

However, Marethari's sacrifice just didn't make sense to me, so I will agree with you on that point.  She gives up everything to save Merrill; this includes the well-being of the entire clan, mind you. I just have a hard time accepting the fact that Marethari would leave her clan without guidance like that; Merrill's replacement, whoever that is, can't have been properly trained that long.

Regardless, I still don't see how Marethari is more at fault than Merrill. Merrill made her choice, and that caused a huge chain reaction that practically (or in some cases it actually did) destroys the entire clan. (My Mahariel would kick Merrill's butt... big time!)

[Sharn01]

One thing a lot of people forget is the mirror had absolutely nothing to do with any of the problems caused with Merrill and the Keeper, other then that they disagreed on cleansing it. Merrill did not contact the demon through the mirror, and as far as we know it was not tied to the mirror in any way and was using it as a tool to lure people to it, not as a window into our world. Marethari was possessed by demon without the mirror, and Merrill was bringing Hawke to where the demon was, which was no where near the mirror.

The facts we do have are that Marethari was possessed by the demon without the need for the mirror, and Merrill was bringing help to prevent what would happen should she be possessed to where the demon was located, which was not the mirror. There is no evidence in the game that the mirror was dangerous, and anyone who says it is, is speculating based on what Marethari says, and not on any actual facts.

[labargegrrrl]

Just a note, to those of you who didn't notice...Vinel is the woman who replaces Marethari as Keeper. She's in the camp, you can talk to her and everything.

[Saberchic]

labargegrrrl wrote...

Just a note, to those of you who didn't notice...Vinel is the woman who replaces Marethari as Keeper. She's in the camp, you can talk to her and everything.

Really? I didn't know that. I'll have to dust off my DA2 and find an early save to load. Does she say anything about this topic?

[labargegrrrl]

Saberchic wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

Just a note, to those of you who didn't notice...Vinel is the woman who replaces Marethari as Keeper. She's in the camp, you can talk to her and everything.

Really? I didn't know that. I'll have to dust off my DA2 and find an early save to load. Does she say anything about this topic?

if you talk to her before Marethari dies, you won't get dialogue.  if you talk to her after, she'll say that Marethari was better at dealing with humans than she is, but then the game doesn't let you talk about it more.  of course, if you pick the wrong option and kill the Dalish then you won't get to talk to her.  i bumped into the dialogue by accident when i did Murder of Crows.

[Vlad_Dracul]

Marethari is just senile as much as Elthina. So same end was inevitable.

After all, Dalish looks like morons all the time. Humans are bad, okay, so what we can do now? Nothing. So Velanna and Merrill had all rights be angry to own people.

[Forst1999]

Marethari definitly is as responsible for everything that happened as Merrill. After cleaning the mirror, there was no sign that it still might be dangerous, it was the taint that got Tamlen and Mahariel, and the taint was removed. Marethari's insistance that it was dangerous, without explaining why, must seem utterly senseless to Merrill. Marethari expected complete trust, which Merrill wasn't ready to give, when it meant to give up on a huge piece of elven history. It IS her job to recover and preserve it. Maybe Marethari should have acknowledged that Merrill wasn't ready to trust her blindly on this after a few years.
As for Marethari's warnings about Merrill: They were exaggerated. Yes, Merrill consorted with a demon. But this demon was captured, and she was in no in no acute danger of become an abomination. Yes, Merrill used blood magic, but it is not as if she sacrificed people top enhance it, or mind controlled anyone. Marethari's panicmongering led directly to Pol's death, and possibly to the death of the rest as well. No doubt she felt it was her responsibility, but it was the wrong call.
Also, it would have been beneficial, if Marethari had told SOMEONE about her plan. If she had told her new first what she was going to do, she might have convinced Fenarel and Ineria to respect Marethari's decision. Again, she just expected everyone to behave as she would like it, thus possibly getting her clan killed.
It was pride, Marethari's as much as Merrill's that led to the whole mess. Merrill was obsessed woth the idea that she could restore a piece of elven glory, and as every pupil she had to rebel against her teacher at some point. Marethari was a noble woman, but she expected everyone to obey her just because she was the Keeper, without ever explaining her reasoning.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

A lot of things in DA2 would have been better with more development . . . not the least being charcter interactions.

As for the bolded part - yes, exactly.  Merrill's childish "I know better then my elders" routine is what led to Maretheri's death (although, to be honest, she shouldn't have gone to that demon - should have just sealed up the cave and/or guarded it from Merrill) and the end of the events.

I thought Marethari's decision to let loose a demon from its imprisonment - without warning any members of her clan what she was doing - was what led to the Keeper's demise. Merrill was focused on restoring the Eluvian - where David Gaider said she studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard - because she believed the two thousand year old technology could help the People. Why is it "childish" for Merrill to want a better future for the elves? Why is it wrong of her to risk her own life for a possible future where the lives of elves across Thedas are irrevocably better than ever? Hawke risks his life - often for much, much less.

TJPags wrote...

She's a spoiled child.  She listens to what she wants to listen to.  She's told by Maretheri not to screw with the mirror - one which almost killed one of her clan (the Dalish Warden) and turned another into a ghoul.  She does it anyway.  If I'm not mistaken, Hawke can tell her to stop also - and she keeps going.

Hawke is completely ignorant about the Eluvian, and Merrill isn't because (according to Gaider) she studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard. How does that make her "a spoiled child" when she is making a decision that is informed by her own studies of the Eluvian? She believes she is correct about the Eluvian - if it helps the People, then I think the risk was well worth it. If it doesn't, it leaves the elves in the same position since the fall of the Dales.

TJPags wrote...

At the end of the day, sure Maretheri didn't have to screw with the demon - there were other options - but if Merrill had listened, and stopped her foolishness, she doesn't get cast out, Maretheri doesn't die, etc. etc.

Marethari is an adult, not to mention the Keeper of the clan. She is responsible for her own choices and the lives of the current members of the clan. Her irresponsible behavior in becoming an abomination without warning anyone was what led to her death.

TJPags wrote...

Oh, and btw - what happens to the mirror at the end?  I don't recall (seriously, I don't).

Merrill abandons her attempts to complete the Eluvian on both Friendship and Rivalry.

[ReallyRue]

Heh, as far as Pol is concerned, I think neither Marethari nor Merrill are to blame. He's the one who runs into the whatever-its-called, they don't herd him with cattle-prods.

[jamesp81]

TJPags wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I just wonder with more development time, if this scenario would have been fleshed out better.

With Merethari being the leader and spiritual guide for her clan, it doesn't make sense for her to throw her life away like she does just to protect Merrill. That leaves the clan with no keeper or first.

Since Merethari insists that Merrill abandon her pursuit of restoring the eluvian, why wouldn't she respect the wishes of her clan's keeper and assume that Merethari knows more than Merrill about the situation? In this case, Merrill seems like a rebellious daughter who thinks she knows more than her mother and like a spoiled brat, goes off to do her own thing.

A lot of things in DA2 would have been better with more development . . . not the least being charcter interactions.

As for the bolded part - yes, exactly.  Merrill's childish "I know better then my elders" routine is what led to Maretheri's death (although, to be honest, she shouldn't have gone to that demon - should have just sealed up the cave and/or guarded it from Merrill) and the end of the events.

Except that Marethari admitted she knew almost nothing about the mirror.