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[Joy Divison]

The Fade portion of the game is done horribly and aside from being one of the numerous flaws in DA:2, it muddles the issue with Hawke, demons, and his companions, especially Merrill.

The demons are represented as the greatest of their kind and are pushovers. Problematic.

Marethari makes the quest sound like a longshot and Hawke's successful resolution of it as a miracle, but was laughably simple. Problematic.

All companions are treated the same and automatically fail to resist a demon's temptation. Not only does this fail to differentiate between them, it contradicts the precedent established in DA:O which those with superior willpower can resist a demon. Problematic.

The quest is the equivalent of a DM saying "you/he/she fail" without being given a chance to roll.

If the developers wanted to convey through this quest that Merrill is more susceptible to possession than she and her admirers believe, then they should have demonstrated this by having someone without plot armor resisting the demon's offer in the Fade and Merrill failing.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:32 .

[Bayz]

http://tvtropes.org/...torySegregation

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah obviously it is a question how to deal with ancient artifacts. Study them or throw them in a hole and earth on it in case they are evil. Most people would probably think studying it is the better course of action, even if they are 'cursed'. Because I really don't see how something that is dangerous becomes less of a danger by ignoring it instead of trying to find out what it is.

The problem being that, if you unearth it, do you unleash that danger on the world?  Or do you let it sit safely sealed away where it couldn't hurt anyone.

No the problem is that people really believe they can safely lock away things or people. But someone eventually finds or unlocks it. That's how things start every single time. The mirror was hidden away for ages and then someone found it, the idol was locked away in the deeproads but then someone found it. Given enough time there will always be someone finding whatever you hid and 'locked away safely'. And then you don't know who finds it and what he or she is using it for and then the world is unprepared because nobody even knows that it exists.

That's why I think that responsible people should make researches. For once to avoid getting powerful things into hands of unresponsible people and for the other that the world is not completely unaware of the danger when one day they are getting confronted with it. This claim of safety is just setting yourself up for the next catastrophe in the future. You don't erase the danger, you delay it.

It is obvious that dark and evil ancient things slumber deep under the surface of Thedas. And just pretending they are not there does not make them go away. And if people don't learn about them or a way to deal with them properly they will be set off at some point anyway. If you know your house is build on a former mine field, will you search the ground to find them and secure them or will you just let them be there and pretend they don't exist until someone triggers one?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

Joy Divison wrote...

The demons are represented as the greatest of their kind (according to themselves) and are pushovers. Problematic.

Fixed.

Marethari makes the quest sound like a longshot and Hawke's successful resolution of it as a miracle, but was laughably simple. Problematic.

You mean like how this blight thing was built up to be terrible, yet 4 dudes outside Orzammar are a harder fight than the archdemon?

All companions are treated the same and automatically fail to resist a demon's temptation. Not only does this fail to differentiate between them, it contradicts the precedent established in DA:O which those with superior willpower can resist a demon. Problematic.

Anders manages. That is your quota of one Morrigan managing.

The quest is the equivalent of a DM saying "you/he/she fail" without being given a chance to roll.

You have not played bioware games much, have you?

If the developers wanted to convey through this quest that Merrill is more susceptible to possession than she and her admirers believe, then they should have demonstrated this by having someone without plot armor resisting the demon's offer in the Fade and Merrill failing.

Or they could have her see that, and admit to it. I doubt she went "That was so OOC".

[Joy Divison]

Herr Uhl, normally I respect your posts a lot, but I really can't tell if you are just beng argumentative

It's not just the demons who are full of themselves, Torpor also says he is no match for them.

I have no idea why you're comparing the bounty hunters outside Orzammar to the Archdemon fight.  The Archdemon fight was not a difficult as I would  have liked but that bounty hunter fight was not particularly difficult.  And just because DA:O failed at something doesn't mean it's OK for DA:2 to fail in the same way.

Anders is already possessed.  He also isn't even subject to a temptation offer.

It wasn't just Morrigan who realized she was being tricked, Sten did as well. 

No, I actually haven't played a lot of Bioware games.  How does Bioware employing the same stupid mechanic in previous games make it acceptable?

She does not say it is OOC when she apologizes and her quest in Act III, but in the rest of Merrill's dialogue and banter throughout the game, she is dissmissive of the possibility of being possessed and says stuff like "that won't happen to me" "yes, but I know how to defend myself" and "i know what i'm doing."

Modifié par Joy Divison, 02 novembre 2011 - 02:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Saberchic wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill addresses this. She said she didn't have the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard, so she used blood magic instead because it's more powerful than regular magic. The fact that Merrill isn't a ghoul like the corrupted elves in the Elven Ruins (who were corrupted by the remaining shards of the Eluvian) illustrates that Merrill was successful in cleansing the shard; otherwise, she would have ended up as a ghoul instead.

As for being "irresponsible," Merrill seemed to simply converse with Audacity. There is no evidence that Merrill let him out (and addresses the distinction on rivalry, saying she wouldn't let Audacity loose from his totem). Even Marethari never argues that Merrill was at risk from simply conversing with Audacity, but from her assumption that Audacity could escape through the restored Eluvian that Merrill was working on).

So... then she could have waited and gotten enough lyrium for it to work? That's what I'm getting from that.  

Considering that lyrium comes from Orzammar, and the Chantry of Andraste has a monopoly on lyrium on the surface for the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi, I'm not certain how you're getting that from what I stated.

Saberchic wrote...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Anders say that in order to perform blood magic, you have to accept a demon inside of you?

Anders also asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident. Clearly, demons are one method for a mage to learn blood magic, as The Warden can in the Fade in the attempt to rescue Connor, but we see the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness (during the crisis in Amaranthine) to teach him blood magic, and at this point the Orlesian Warden simply assumes that she is simply another mage. Clearly, if one mage is asking another mage (from the perspective of the Orlesian Warden) to teach him blood magic, it's not exclusive to demons.

Saberchic wrote...

I thought there was a banter with him and Fenris about that. The part I find irresponsible is that she purposely opens herself and her entire clan to the threat of a demon. I'm not saying Audacity was that demon, but she difinitely had a bond with one because she was using blood magic.

Considering that Audacity is imprisoned by ancient elven magic inside a totem, I don't see how that's the case. Having a discourse with Audacity doesn't mean that Merrill is letting him loose - she emphasizes the difference to Hawke with the aggressive option. The only person who endangers the entire clan by letting Audacity loose from its imprisonment is the Keeper Marethari.

Saberchic wrote...

If she simply didn't have enough lyrium, why couldn't she have waited or sent word to other clans. I'm sure they would have loved an opportunity to reclaim a part of their history. (Besides, I get the feeling that there's more than lyrium and blood magic out there.) I would hope that she would have at least tried to attempt another way of cleansing the eluvian before going to blood magic.

You're condemning her based on what you assume might be the case, and considering Marethari's clan is currently stranded at Sundermount, I don't see why Merrill should have waited ten years, twenty years, or a lifetime when she could simply use blood magic to successfully cleanse the shard. Blood magic isn't evil - it's what The Joining is, it's basically what Finn used during Witch Hunt, it's the phylacteries used by the templars to locate rogue mages, it's the type of magic that Duncan says some Grey Warden mages use against the darkspawn.

Considering that the elves in the Elven Ruins were corrupted by shards remaining from the destroyed Eluvian (in Witch Hunt) and Merrill isn't a ghoul, she successfully cleansed the shard of its corruption.

[Bayz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're condemning her based on what you assume might be the case, and considering Marethari's clan is currently stranded at Sundermount, I don't see why Merrill should have waited ten years, twenty years, or a lifetime when she could simply use blood magic to successfully cleanse the shard. Blood magic isn't evil - it's what The Joining is, it's basically what Finn used during Witch Hunt, it's the phylacteries used by the templars to locate rogue mages, it's the type of magic that Duncan says some Grey Warden mages use against the darkspawn.

Considering that the elves in the Elven Ruins were corrupted by shards remaining from the destroyed Eluvian (in Witch Hunt) and Merrill isn't a ghoul, she successfully cleansed the shard of its corruption.

To Merril it isn't, but apparently the rest thought it would be. She should have waited because the conditions around were not working to avoid disaster. It is not that she didn't know how to cleanse the Eluvian, it is not that she wasn't skilled it is not that she could not do it...

...it is that her clan and Marethari only seem to know that the Eluvian tainted two clan members and therefore they were not ready to accept it as a gift. It is that Marethari knew she was getting the knoledge to cleanse the Eluvian from a demon.

You see there is not only results in how to hipothetically it would work, you need to keep in mind the people around you as well. Yeah, people are important, and people's opinions are important as well.

Look at it the same as the Stem Cells. They could save lives, they would make transplants easier heavily increasing the chances of survival of millions of people but as they could be used for other stuff not so moral (according to the watchdogs) the development of its science is limited after having been even stopped for several years, for several reasons.

What people defending Merril seem to think is that the way to go is taking the people who would go against it to extermination camps and kill them straight away, because the Stem Cells could save lives...which makes very wary honestly.

Anyway is what another poster said before. Hopefully when you pass puberty and become a full grown adult you might be able to grasp it properly.

And no Merril was not a monster, neither was Marethari, it was all a tragedy that happened just because Merril couldn't wait her turn to do stuff...I do understand patience is something that most youngsters can't grasp though so nobody is judging you.

[Arthur Cousland]

Doesn't Jowan learn blood magic by reading a book on it? That would mean that demons aren't required for a mage to be able to learn blood magic.

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're condemning her based on what you assume might be the case, and considering Marethari's clan is currently stranded at Sundermount, I don't see why Merrill should have waited ten years, twenty years, or a lifetime when she could simply use blood magic to successfully cleanse the shard. Blood magic isn't evil - it's what The Joining is, it's basically what Finn used during Witch Hunt, it's the phylacteries used by the templars to locate rogue mages, it's the type of magic that Duncan says some Grey Warden mages use against the darkspawn.

Considering that the elves in the Elven Ruins were corrupted by shards remaining from the destroyed Eluvian (in Witch Hunt) and Merrill isn't a ghoul, she successfully cleansed the shard of its corruption.

To Merril it isn't, but apparently the rest thought it would be. She should have waited because the conditions around were not working to avoid disaster. It is not that she didn't know how to cleanse the Eluvian, it is not that she wasn't skilled it is not that she could not do it...

...it is that her clan and Marethari only seem to know that the Eluvian tainted two clan members and therefore they were not ready to accept it as a gift. It is that Marethari knew she was getting the knoledge to cleanse the Eluvian from a demon.

You see there is not only results in how to hipothetically it would work, you need to keep in mind the people around you as well. Yeah, people are important, and people's opinions are important as well.

Look at it the same as the Stem Cells. They could save lives, they would make transplants easier heavily increasing the chances of survival of millions of people but as they could be used for other stuff not so moral (according to the watchdogs) the development of its science is limited after having been even stopped for several years, for several reasons.

What people defending Merril seem to think is that the way to go is taking the people who would go against it to extermination camps and kill them straight away, because the Stem Cells could save lives...which makes very wary honestly.

Anyway is what another poster said before. Hopefully when you pass puberty and become a full grown adult you might be able to grasp it properly.

And no Merril was not a monster, neither was Marethari, it was all a tragedy that happened just because Merril couldn't wait her turn to do stuff...I do understand patience is something that most youngsters can't grasp though so nobody is judging you.

she left the clan so they would not be involved because she knew they were wary of her methods. That Martathi breaks all dalish tradition and doesn't move the clane after six years is not Merrill's fault. Also people have a limited life time, you know. If you wait all your life it is going to pass you by.
I don't imagine how you think that the dalish would get Lyrium enough to clean the shard without blood magic and for that matter, the longer she carried an uncleaned shard around the higher the chance that someone would get tainted.

[Bayz]

Yes, but methinks Merril is slightly younger (and therefore has more lifetime) than Marethari.

In fact Merril happens to be Marethari's successor, so her word would be as much as law as it would get. She can just decide to train a sucessor and let the new one handle the clan affairs while she cleanses the Eluvian (with rituals she had been studying in Kirkwall) after she takes power.

Life is limited, but honestly, in normal conditions your parents are not expected to outlive you

[Bayz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

What people defending Merril seem to think is that the way to go is taking the people who would go against it to extermination camps and kill them straight away, because the Stem Cells could save lives...which makes very wary honestly.

:blink:What? Are you honestly comparing supporting Merrill to mass exterminating people against their will? That's just... I really don't know how to respond to that.

Well what did your Hawke did in the Dalish camp? Oh and often exterminating people tend to go against their will...just for the record.

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

Yes, but methinks Merril is slightly younger (and therefore has more lifetime) than Marethari.

In fact Merril happens to be Marethari's successor, so her word would be as much as law as it would get. She can just decide to train a sucessor and let the new one handle the clan affairs while she cleanses the Eluvian (with rituals she had been studying in Kirkwall) after she takes power.

Life is limited, but honestly, in normal conditions your parents are not expected to outlive you

If she had to wait that long before even cleansing the shard someone would have been corrupted.

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

What people defending Merril seem to think is that the way to go is taking the people who would go against it to extermination camps and kill them straight away, because the Stem Cells could save lives...which makes very wary honestly.

:blink:What? Are you honestly comparing supporting Merrill to mass exterminating people against their will? That's just... I really don't know how to respond to that.

Well what did your Hawke did in the Dalish camp? Oh and often exterminating people tend to go against their will...just for the record.

Funny my Hawke defended herself. She did not expect the whole clan to come after her when she told them that Mathari was an abormination. It was kill or be killed and they were fifty (at the least) to four, that is not extermination that is self defense.

[Forst1999]

Bayz wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

What people defending Merril seem to think is that the way to go is taking the people who would go against it to extermination camps and kill them straight away, because the Stem Cells could save lives...which makes very wary honestly.

:blink:What? Are you honestly comparing supporting Merrill to mass exterminating people against their will? That's just... I really don't know how to respond to that.

Well what did your Hawke did in the Dalish camp? Oh and often exterminating people tend to go against their will...just for the record.

Killing people in self-defense isn't the same thing as executing them for opposing one's beliefs. And i think this example could derail the discussion in a VERY bad way.

[LobselVith8]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

So being pro-active and trying to investigate technology that may be able to irrevocably change the lives of elves across Thedas is stupid? I respectfully disagree, Kaiser Shepard.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah, so apparently it's wrong of people to hold a viewpoint that isn't "Merrill's wrong because I say so!"? It's wrong for us to see her as not being stupid?

Yes, because I say so.

The entire premise of the Dalish is to restore the lost lore and practices of elven tradition, so Merrill is fulfilling her duty as a member of the Dalish by trying to restore the Eluvian. I don't see a reason to villify Merrill for following the premise of the Dalish more honestly than her own Keeper was, especially when Gaider addressed that she actually studied the lore and extrapolated information about the shard. Merrill was informed about the Eluvian, while Marethari makes it clear she is addressing her opinion based on what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

lobi wrote...

Not a Merril fan. However. The caged Demon spoke to both Merril and Marethari in their dreams. Merril got information from the Demon and it remained caged. Merril was safe as long as it remained caged. Marethari freed it from a centuries old prison and took it into herself. How is this the most secure option? It'a not about how wrong blood magic is or how virtuous self sacrifice is, the reasons why have nought to do with it. Merril left it caged, Marethari freed it. It's that simple.

Merrill was also going to release it, although unknowingly. The only reason Marethari took the demon in her is because she wanted to spare her daughter that fate.

You don't know that. Neither does Marethari. There's no evidence that Audacity would have been released through the restored Eluvian. In fact, it seems more likely that Audacity manipulated Marethari by letting her think that so she would release it.

[Forst1999]

LobselVith8 wrote...


You don't know that. Neither does Marethari. There's no evidence that Audacity would have been released through the restored Eluvian. In fact, it seems more likely that Audacity manipulated Marethari by letting her think that so she would release it.

That's a little much speculation for my taste. I think that Marethari made an informed choice, even if it was not wise.

[LobselVith8]

Bayz wrote...

Ahh...we've been through this already many many times. It all boils down to if you think an elven version of internet is worth a whole clan's lives...

Let me put it this way, Did you side with Branka in Origins?

You mean should The Warden spare the Anvil of the Void, the technology responsible for giving the dwarves a hundred years of peace from the darkspawn, and beating back the first Archdemon Dumat from dwarven civilization? With it's loss being the reason why virtually all (but two) of the dwarven kingdoms fell to the darkspawn horde, with women being violated and people being eaten alive?

Besides which, the real dilemma is that Branka has clearly lost her mind, but her focus is on destroying the darkspawn. What she did to her House is morally reprehensible, but she's a mortal who will eventually die. Should technology that could save the dwarves - and the surface world - from the greatest threat to all life on Thedas be destroyed simply because the woman who can forge golems is morally repugnant?

The difference with Merrill is that she's specifically risking her life by dealing with Audacity, not the lives of anyone else like Branka did as Paragon, and her efforts to restore the Eluvian are based on research she's done. Both individuals become focused on helping their people, but while Branka is willing to risk and kill the lives of others to achieve her goals, Merrill is determined to risk only her life for the promise of a better future for the People.

Bayz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're condemning her based on what you assume might be the case, and considering Marethari's clan is currently stranded at Sundermount, I don't see why Merrill should have waited ten years, twenty years, or a lifetime when she could simply use blood magic to successfully cleanse the shard. Blood magic isn't evil - it's what The Joining is, it's basically what Finn used during Witch Hunt, it's the phylacteries used by the templars to locate rogue mages, it's the type of magic that Duncan says some Grey Warden mages use against the darkspawn.

Considering that the elves in the Elven Ruins were corrupted by shards remaining from the destroyed Eluvian (in Witch Hunt) and Merrill isn't a ghoul, she successfully cleansed the shard of its corruption.

To Merril it isn't, but apparently the rest thought it would be. She should have waited because the conditions around were not working to avoid disaster. It is not that she didn't know how to cleanse the Eluvian, it is not that she wasn't skilled it is not that she could not do it...

...it is that her clan and Marethari only seem to know that the Eluvian tainted two clan members and therefore they were not ready to accept it as a gift. It is that Marethari knew she was getting the knoledge to cleanse the Eluvian from a demon.

Merrill found a way to cleanse the shard she took from Ferelden, but she lacked the necessary lyrium to cleanse it with regular magic (which she addressed when speaking with Hawke), and therefore turned to Audacity to learn blood magic as a means of cleansing the shard successfully.

Bayz wrote...

You see there is not only results in how to hipothetically it would work, you need to keep in mind the people around you as well. Yeah, people are important, and people's opinions are important as well.

Look at it the same as the Stem Cells. They could save lives, they would make transplants easier heavily increasing the chances of survival of millions of people but as they could be used for other stuff not so moral (according to the watchdogs) the development of its science is limited after having been even stopped for several years, for several reasons.

What people defending Merril seem to think is that the way to go is taking the people who would go against it to extermination camps and kill them straight away, because the Stem Cells could save lives...which makes very wary honestly.

So Merrill risking her own life for technology that could benefit the People and going against the opinion of the Keeper (who apparently didn't conduct the same level of investigative research as Merrill) is the same as... sending people to extermination camps? I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here.

Bayz wrote...

Anyway is what another poster said before. Hopefully when you pass puberty and become a full grown adult you might be able to grasp it properly.

I don't think condescension really makes much difference when two people have differing views.

Bayz wrote...

And no Merril was not a monster, neither was Marethari, it was all a tragedy that happened just because Merril couldn't wait her turn to do stuff...I do understand patience is something that most youngsters can't grasp though so nobody is judging you.

I thought the point was that Marethari was wrong and irresponsible in letting Audacity loose without warning anyone, not that she was a monster.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The entire premise of the Dalish is to restore the lost lore and practices of elven tradition, so Merrill is fulfilling her duty as a member of the Dalish by trying to restore the Eluvian. I don't see a reason to villify Merrill for following the premise of the Dalish more honestly than her own Keeper was, especially when Gaider addressed that she actually studied the lore and extrapolated information about the shard. Merrill was informed about the Eluvian, while Marethari makes it clear she is addressing her opinion based on what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted.

Her whole clan was against it.   Shouldn't those same people get a vote as to what is their "entire premise"?  Shouldn't they get a veto if they don't have any confidence in Merrill?  Let's be honest, here's this woman who's a bit of a twit, and is blithely and obsessively working on Pandora's Box while spraying blood everywhere.  I don't blame her clan for not being reassured by her insistence that she knows what she's doing.

[Forst1999]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The entire premise of the Dalish is to restore the lost lore and practices of elven tradition, so Merrill is fulfilling her duty as a member of the Dalish by trying to restore the Eluvian. I don't see a reason to villify Merrill for following the premise of the Dalish more honestly than her own Keeper was, especially when Gaider addressed that she actually studied the lore and extrapolated information about the shard. Merrill was informed about the Eluvian, while Marethari makes it clear she is addressing her opinion based on what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted.

Her whole clan was against it.   Shouldn't those same people get a vote as to what is their "entire premise"?  Shouldn't they get a veto if they don't have any confidence in Merrill?  Let's be honest, here's this woman who's a bit of a twit, and is blithely and obsessively working on Pandora's Box while spraying blood everywhere.  I don't blame her clan for not being reassured by her insistence that she knows what she's doing.

The clan's opinion doesn't change Merrill's purpose. Maybe she should have seen sooner that you can't help people that don't want your help. But her task isn't just a responsibility to her own clan, but to all of elvenkind. That her own clan didn't believe in her project (after it was worked up by Marethari), did not change Merrill's view that the restoration of the Eluvian benefeits all of the Dalish.
Also, i don't think they saw Merrill as "a bit of a twit". Most of Merrill's awkwardness comes from her lacking experience with human customs, city life and personal relationships. I got the impression that she was very respected as First.

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Who's fault is that, if not hers?

So you're blaming Merrill for exercising her free will? Merrill was willing to risk her own life for this endeavor, and hers alone. It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari decided to endanger every member of her clan by letting a demon loose into her body and become an abomination simply because she thought the restored Eluvian might hurt Merrill. Given that we know Merrill actually studied lore and extrapolated information from the shard, and we have Marethari making it clear that her stance is based on her assumptions about what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted, I put my trust in the person who actually did the research over the person who is following their own paranoia. To say it's Merrill's fault that Marethari committed actions of her own free condoms her for the behavior of another grown adult. Marethari was the Keeper, she had responsibilities, and she shirked those responsibilities and put the lives of every member of her clan in danger.

Not really arguing your point, but I'd say the eluvian's killing of two clan members puts Marethari's concerns as somewhat more valid than simple paranoia.

Except the Eluvian did that when it was corrupted, and Merrill cleansed the shard she took from Ferelden so that is no longer an issue. The fact that the elves at the Elven Ruins (in Witch Hunt) were corrupted by the remaining shards of the Eluvian, while Merrill handles the 'cleansed' shard for several years without being corrupted, illustrates that what she did was successful in removing the corruption responsible for the deaths of those two elves.

Lord Aesir wrote...

On a related note, I don't really understand the assumption that Merrill knew more about elven lore on eluvians than the keeper and that Marethari was wrong about the mirror allowing the demon through.

Because Gaider addressed that Merrill studied the lore and extrapolated information about the shard she took from Ferelden, while Marethari's argument against building a new Eluvian is that she thinks the ancient elves wanted the technology to stay buried.

Lord Aesir wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

How did Morrigan read it?

Marethari might have decided it was too dangerous or not worth it.  But at least she would have studied the thing instead of calling it 'evil' out of superstitious thinking.

Never said she didn't take a risk.  I just said she had access to the knowledge and Merrill did not, instead gaining it from a demon.  Neither of these things are assumptions.

Actually, David Gaider (the head writer for Dragon Age) addressed that Merrill studied lore about the Eluvian and extraplated information from the shard, so her dealing with Audacity seem to focus strictly on specialized knowledge about blood magic.

Lord Aesir wrote...

That Circle Mage could read it, or at least bits of it.  If her knowledge comes from Flemeth, I imagine it's much more complete.

Or maybe she called it evil out of educated thinking because she did not believe any good would come of messing with it after she researched it.

The entire problem with Marethari's argument is that there's no basis for her opinion. She never suggests that any kind of research she did is why the Eluvian should remain buried, she says it's because she thinks the ancestors didn't want the Eluvian to be re-discovered (in Act II). When she argues for Merrill not to deal with Audacity again, she doesn't reveal her suspicions or her theories until it's too late (in Act III). What proof does she have that Audacity was going to use the Eluvian to escape? Did she hear this plan from Audacity? If so, why would Audacity tell her, unless it was part of Audacity's plan all along to get the Keeper to release it so it could escape from its prison? If Audacity didn't tell Marethari, where is she getting this theory from? Her own paranoia, her own suspicions? There is absolutely no evidence to back up Marethari's claims about Audacity.

[Addai]

Forst1999 wrote...
The clan's opinion doesn't change Merrill's purpose. Maybe she should have seen sooner that you can't help people that don't want your help. But her task isn't just a responsibility to her own clan, but to all of elvenkind. That her own clan didn't believe in her project (after it was worked up by Marethari), did not change Merrill's view that the restoration of the Eluvian benefeits all of the Dalish.
Also, i don't think they saw Merrill as "a bit of a twit". Most of Merrill's awkwardness comes from her lacking experience with human customs, city life and personal relationships. I got the impression that she was very respected as First.

Right, which is why they can't wait to see the back of her.  Undoubtedly she had a place of responsibility before, but they voted her off the island so that is old news.

Self appointed saviors of (elven)kind are not something I have much patience with.  Merrill has disaster written all over her, which is why I just didn't bother with her quests after my first pt.  I would hope Hawke, at least, has some sense.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The entire premise of the Dalish is to restore the lost lore and practices of elven tradition, so Merrill is fulfilling her duty as a member of the Dalish by trying to restore the Eluvian. I don't see a reason to villify Merrill for following the premise of the Dalish more honestly than her own Keeper was, especially when Gaider addressed that she actually studied the lore and extrapolated information about the shard. Merrill was informed about the Eluvian, while Marethari makes it clear she is addressing her opinion based on what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted.

Her whole clan was against it.   Shouldn't those same people get a vote as to what is their "entire premise"? 

Her clan is against it because they follow Keeper Marethari, and she was against it. If you're asking me who I trust more - Merrill, who actually studied the Eluvian, or Marethari, who has assumptions and nothing more, than I'm going to put my faith in Merrill. She is fulfilling her role as a Dalish elf, which is to preserve and restore the ancient past and traditions of her ancient ancestors. According to Keeper Gisharel of the Ralaferin clan, "In time, the human empires will crumble. We have seen it happen countless times. Until then, we wait, we keep to the wild border lands, we raise halla and build aravels and present a moving target to the humans around us. We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten." (emphasis mine) Part of the reason behind this (as we're told in "Nature of the Beast) is that the goal of the Dalish is to teach their city brethern - who have forgotten about the ways of the ancient elves - about their history, their traditions, and their culture.

Addai67 wrote...

Shouldn't they get a veto if they don't have any confidence in Merrill?  

Merrill left Marethari's clan because she believed the Eluvian could possibly help the People. Why should the members of the clan be able to veto the direction that Merrill wants to take her life in when she's no longer living among the Dalish?

Addai67 wrote...

Let's be honest, here's this woman who's a bit of a twit, and is blithely and obsessively working on Pandora's Box while spraying blood everywhere.  I don't blame her clan for not being reassured by her insistence that she knows what she's doing.

Merrill is a trained mage who can distinquish the type of demon inhabiting a Profane Abomination, who can tell whether Kerran is possessed by a demon or not, who has handled regular elven magic and blood magic proficiently for several years, and has been working on a two thousand year old elven device that baffled even the Tevinter Magistes. How is she a "twit" when she's working towards a goal of giving the People technology that may be able to irrevocably change their lives?

As for Marethari's clan, they are a group of racists and close-minded buffoons. Given that her clan are the same people who are willing to commit suicide by Hawke unless Hawke decides to coddle them, their opinion doesn't matter much to me.

[Addai]

Well and there is why discussing the topic is kind of useless. Since everyone suffers a bout of chaotic stupid in DA2, we're only talking a matter of degree and Merrill's just another case. Why indeed the clan should hang around Kirkwall is never explained.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

I don't even know who to quote here, so I won't bother:

I love that people see nothing wrong with someone simply choosing to disobey a person they are SUPPOSED to listen to.

I wonder - if a 14 year old child decided they wanted to take their parents car for a ride, and was told no, would it also be okay if that child thought about it for a while a decided, "hey, my parents are wrong"?

You're equating a learned scholar of the arcane arts - who is building a Eluvian based on two thousand year old elven technology because she thinks it can fundamentally help the People, who have been on a downward spiral since the fall of the Dales and have been nomadic to avoid their elven mages getting killed by the templars - with a 14 year old child? The analogy simply doesn't add up, TJPags. Merrill is doing what she believes is right, based on actual study of the Eluvian, while Marethari condemns it based on her assumptions alone.

TJPags wrote...

It's really that simple - she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. She chose not to. That is wrong.

Not if the Keeper is wrong, which is what Merrill believed was the case. Merrill was doing her duty as a Dalish by restoring the past - which means she was being more faithful to the premise and goal of the Dalish than her clan's own Keeper was. Merrill addresses this when Hawke asks if risking her life is worth the price: "If it brings back this artifact of the elvhen, if it gives us even one piece of our history, it's worth any risk."

TJPags wrote...

It has nothing to do with what Maretheri did or didn't do. It has everything to do with what Merrill didn't do - listen.

But hey, I guess we all go through our "parents are idiots" phase. Luckily, for most people, it doesn't lead to the death of their entire family.

Marethari's own actions can lead to the death of the clan, because she poisoned them against Merrill to such an extreme that they commit suicide by Hawke unless Hawke coddles them.