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Marethari is more at fault than Merrill is.


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#251
Forst1999

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Addai67 wrote...

Well and there is why discussing the topic is kind of useless. Since everyone suffers a bout of chaotic stupid in DA2, we're only talking a matter of degree and Merrill's just another case. Why indeed the clan should hang around Kirkwall is never explained.


I thought that Marethari prolonged their stay at Sundermount because of this whole Merrill/Eluvian/Demon thing. But the best thing for her clan, but her decision in the end also was more about what she thought was good for Merrill than for the clan. Another factor is that the clan lost their Halla and have trouble replacing them, which makes travel rather difficult.

#252
LobselVith8

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Forst1999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well and there is why discussing the topic is kind of useless. Since everyone suffers a bout of chaotic stupid in DA2, we're only talking a matter of degree and Merrill's just another case. Why indeed the clan should hang around Kirkwall is never explained.


I thought that Marethari prolonged their stay at Sundermount because of this whole Merrill/Eluvian/Demon thing. But the best thing for her clan, but her decision in the end also was more about what she thought was good for Merrill than for the clan. Another factor is that the clan lost their Halla and have trouble replacing them, which makes travel rather difficult.


The Dalish follow the halla, which is why their loss has stranded them at Sundermount. I agree with you that it seems that Marethari stayed there because of Merrill. I do think they have had communication with the other clans, because I think it's mentioned there's a new First now (by Act III). Also, Ilen tells his apprentices that they are leaving, with or without the clan. I'd assume that, after Marethari's demise, the new Keeper (ascended from the new First) would move the clan from Sundermount.

#253
Joy Divison

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Forst1999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well and there is why discussing the topic is kind of useless. Since everyone suffers a bout of chaotic stupid in DA2, we're only talking a matter of degree and Merrill's just another case. Why indeed the clan should hang around Kirkwall is never explained.


I thought that Marethari prolonged their stay at Sundermount because of this whole Merrill/Eluvian/Demon thing. But the best thing for her clan, but her decision in the end also was more about what she thought was good for Merrill than for the clan. Another factor is that the clan lost their Halla and have trouble replacing them, which makes travel rather difficult.


This is left ambiguous but Marethari's intentional evasiveness when asked about the clan still being there and saying something to the effect that SHE has unfinished business there does lead me to believe you're right in its tied to the Merrill/Eluvian/Demon thing.

#254
Merilsell

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Addai67 wrote...
Her whole clan was against it.   Shouldn't those same people get a vote as to what is their "entire premise"?  Shouldn't they get a veto if they don't have any confidence in Merrill?  Let's be honest, here's this woman who's a bit of a twit, and is blithely and obsessively working on Pandora's Box while spraying blood everywhere.  I don't blame her clan for not being reassured by her insistence that she knows what she's doing.


Yup. Besides...shouldn't the not so little incident of her clan mate (and possible Warden) have showed Merrill that it possibly...just possibly might be a bad idea to restore the eluvian? :blink:

[...]

Oh, I forgot...it is Merrill we are talking about. My bad, sorry.

#255
Forst1999

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Merilsell wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Her whole clan was against it.   Shouldn't those same people get a vote as to what is their "entire premise"?  Shouldn't they get a veto if they don't have any confidence in Merrill?  Let's be honest, here's this woman who's a bit of a twit, and is blithely and obsessively working on Pandora's Box while spraying blood everywhere.  I don't blame her clan for not being reassured by her insistence that she knows what she's doing.


Yup. Besides...shouldn't the not so little incident of her clan mate (and possible Warden) have showed Merrill that it possibly...just possibly might be a bad idea to restore the eluvian? :blink:

[...]

Oh, I forgot...it is Merrill we are talking about. My bad, sorry.


That was the taint, Merrill removed it from the Eluvian. With that problem out of the way, the only reason not to restore it that Merrill knows of is the Keeper's disapproval. Which contradicts everything Merrill is purposed to do (restore elven history), without being explained until it is to late.

Modifié par Forst1999, 02 novembre 2011 - 06:02 .


#256
LobselVith8

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Merilsell wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Her whole clan was against it.   Shouldn't those same people get a vote as to what is their "entire premise"?  Shouldn't they get a veto if they don't have any confidence in Merrill?  Let's be honest, here's this woman who's a bit of a twit, and is blithely and obsessively working on Pandora's Box while spraying blood everywhere.  I don't blame her clan for not being reassured by her insistence that she knows what she's doing.


Yup. Besides...shouldn't the not so little incident of her clan mate (and possible Warden) have showed Merrill that it possibly...just possibly might be a bad idea to restore the eluvian? :blink: 


Considering Merrill cleansed the shard of its corruption, the reason behind the "corruption" of the two members of her clan is no longer an issue. That's the reason Merrill can handle the shard for several years without being corrupted while the elves in the Elven Ruins (in Witch Hunt) were corrupted by the remaining shards of the Eluvian that were left behind longer after the Eluvian was destroyed.

Merilsell wrote...

[...]

Oh, I forgot...it is Merrill we are talking about. My bad, sorry.


You mean the pro-active character who proficiently handles magic and is trying to re-create a two thousand year old piece of elven technology that may be able to benefit the People, who are nomadic because they were hunted by the templars?

#257
TEWR

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It's really that simple - she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. She chose not to. That is wrong.


I'm sorry, but where was it given that a First is supposed to do everything the Keeper says to the letter?

Should she have said "Yes Master, I exist to serve the master and only the master." in a dry monotone?

The student will always surpass the master. Apparently because Marethari said "No" Merrill should give up? That's just stupid.

The Eluvian didn't give Mahariel and Tamlen the Blight disease. The taint within the Eluvian gave Mahariel and Tamlen the Blight disease. That has been taken care now and the Eluvian is no longer a danger.

#258
dragonflight288

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My opinion is pretty simple. The Dalish elves are self-righteous and arrogant. They and the chantry both are responsible for the sacking of the Dales...although I blame the chantry more than I do the elves...a lot more. Both sides hide their dirty laundry after all.

When I play as a Dalish warden or talk to the Dalish as an outsider, I see the dalish having a threefold mission.

The first is the restoration of Arlathan and everything associated with it. This means the revival of the language, the culture, the gods, the knowledge, and the technology. So that means magical knowledge, like the eluvians, blood magic, arcane warriors, in addition to the technology a crafter can supply his people.

The second is to restore their homeland. Which means finding a land to call home. Set up their findings, each clan learning all they can from the others as one clan may find information another lacks.

The third is teaching the lost ones...the city elves, the old ways.

Essentially they want to rebuild their empire and unite the elves.

Now moving on to Merrill, Merethari, and the dalish elves near Kirkwall. They had just escaped the blight and are camping dangerously close to Kirkwall and its templars. The clan knows that the Keeper has a debt to pay to Ashbelennar (Flemeth) so they expect to stay there for Hawke to show up. Only they were expecting an elf, as the watch outright admits.

While they are there, Merrill and Merethari encounter a demon sealed within a statue. Merethari refuses to even listen to it, while Merrill is more open. Both are knowledgeable about the Fade and the dangers of consorting with demons. Merrill is also holding a piece of the eluvian, likely stashed safely away because of the corruption from the darkspawn.

She learns blood magic from the demon and how to purify the tainted shard. The fact that she stays in close proximity to the shard for over a decade without becoming tainted, or tainting anyone around her is proof that she succeeded.

Merrill uses her blood magic very carefully, only believing in herself when dealing with demons, taking their knowledge as they offer it, but not their deals.

Merethari fears the darkspawn taint, having lost two hunters to the eluvian before it was potentially destroyed by Duncan. She is also afraid of blood magic and what it may lead Merrill too.

So the first time that Hawke meets the Dalish, only a few are suspicious of Merrill, but some, like the crafter mourn her leaving. Merethari even tells Merrill it's not too late to reconsider her path.

On my first playthrough, I'm just wearing a blank look with question marks in my eyes. So I decide to see what's happening as the game progresses.

We come to act 2, and I see the city-born Pol running from Merrill, even more terrified of her than he is of the Varterral. I am absolutely shocked by that happening.

When we get back to camp, Merethari admits she told the clan that Merrill could bring back the taint and that she was a blood mage...then had the audacity to ask her to return. I literally face-palmed at that.

Pol was city-born, and when he greets Hawke, he's all "Praise Andras....the CREATORS!" leading me to believe he was still a believer in the chantry, but didn't want to return to the alienage. So his views are colored by andrastian beliefs regarding blood magic.

But the very moment he ran to his death rather than be rescued by Merrill, I felt it was too late for Merrill to return to the clan, as they all now hated her guts and distrusted her, based entirely on Merethari's opinion, which has no evidence supporting it.

For one thing, Merrill does not control anyone's mind throughout the game, she does not get the taint, or infect anyone else with it. And in Witch Hunt, elves who had gone into that ruin with the eluvian were corrupted by the taint, so we prove that Merrill succeeded in purifying it.

We also have a clear distinction concerning their differing opinions on the eluvian. Merrill is constantly researching a scrap of lore, using a single shard, and is in the process of rebuilding an eluvian from scratch. Merethari believes that such knowledge belongs to another time and should be left well enough alone. She doesn't even want to touch the lore saying it is far too dangerous. She even tries to renege on her deal with Merrill.

Merrill asks for the tool in Act 2, and Merethari says she'll give it to her in exchange for defeating the Varterral. Well, we defeat the varterral but she gives the tool to Hawke and asks he/she NOT give it to Merrill. She broke her deal, and an important dalish rite invoked by Merrill.

In Act 3, the Dalish are pretty fed up with Kirkwall. They want to leave, but have no Halla. They are fed up with Merethari who is keeping them there as she is constantly asking Merrill to return. And because Merrill is a blood mage and may bring back the taint, she becomes an easy target for their hatred and malcontent, to the point that they refuse to even listen to an opinion that isn't theirs.

Granted, the dalish generally do that regardless of Merrill, and the Chantry...and every other culture. Getting off track.

Merrill, knowledgeable about the eluvians, having done a butt load of research and hard work into rebuilding the mirror, is at a dead end. She doesn't know enough to complete it. She recognizes the demon does. She asks Hawke to accompany her up...and should the worst come to pass, kill her.

Up to this point, I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on. Merrill is discovering the lost knowledge, she is trying to rebuild a very large part of the Dalish heritage (and even if they only manage the long distance communication, that would benefit all the clans and the people as a whole). She invoked the rite to obtain a tool, and honored her end of the bargain.

Merethari on the other hand, was doing nothing to help the clan leave. She stuck around asking Merrill to return to a clan that hated her...courtesy of Merethari warning them of blood magic and the taint. She tried to break the deal with Merrill, and she didn't research or even look into any lore on eluvians.

What it came down to for me was simple. Merrill is a world authority of Eluvians, possibly only Morrigan surpassing her in knowledge for getting one started. She is working at a goal to benefit her people worldwide, she is restoring a part of their heritage. Merrill was following the mission of the Dalish.

Merethari was thinking too much like a mother and less a keeper. I don't doubt she cared for Merrill, but I doubt her (un)common sense. She and the Dalish had an opinion, and no amount of evidence would change it.

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

We show up at the cave, and Merethari reveals herself as an abomination. She says the demon planned to escape from the eluvian and Merrill would be the first victim, so she (Merethari) willingly paid the price she feared Merrill would pay.

Again, I facepalmed. Someone who has steadfastly avoided dealing with demons, wouldn't listen to what they say, didn't do ANY research at all eluvians, she seemed to assume a lot. And she was so self-righteous that she wouldn't even consider that Merrill could be correct...and she practically abandoned her duty as a Keeper because of Merrill.

So we have to kill Merethari, and therein any chance of completing the Eluvian because a leader without any facts but a very strong opinion felt her way was the best way.

After we leave the cave, we are confronted by the dalish elves. They didn't know that Merethari was an abomination, so that shows me that Merethari thought it fit to warn them about Merrill but not about herself. And when we tell them that Merethari was an abomination, they, having spent a decade blaming Merrill for them staying there, Pol's death, fearing her because she was a blood mage and could potentially bring back the darkspawn taint.

And having spent so long blaming Merrill, they won't even consider that Merethari made her own choices, that Merrill did the duty of the clan by killing an abomination. All they see is Merrill driving Merethari to desperation...despite the fact that Merrill left the clan roughly a decade earlier and no longer had any claim to them.

They are angry, prejudiced against Hawke as a shemlen, prejudiced against Merrill as a blood mage, afraid of the taint, that they won't even consider the fact that Merrill is helping her people. We are forced to kill them, because I won't take responsibility for Merrill when Merethari was also a completely rational adult who could make her own decisions.

They attack en mass because of hatred and self-righteousness. There is no way they can be in the wrong, it has to be all their fault, the shemlen and the outcast.

Essentially Merrill was accomplishing what Dalish are supposed to do, and she was hated because of it.

Merethari was not doing her duty, unwittingly sowed the seeds of hatred and distrust, because she was thinking more of a witless mother with no long-term plan. In addition to her endangering the clan by becoming an abomination without warning anyone, and abandoning the mission of the dalish by denying any research into the eluvian, and breaking her deal with merrill in act 2.

That's essentially my rant about Merrill and the Dalish. I always romance Merrill as well. She's just so dang cute and intelligent...just naive. Of course, she seems much more sarcastic later in the game than innocently naive. Another trait I like because she pulls it off well.

#259
WhiteKnyght

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dragonflight288 wrote...

My opinion is pretty simple. The Dalish elves are self-righteous and arrogant. They and the chantry both are responsible for the sacking of the Dales...although I blame the chantry more than I do the elves...a lot more. Both sides hide their dirty laundry after all.

When I play as a Dalish warden or talk to the Dalish as an outsider, I see the dalish having a threefold mission.

The first is the restoration of Arlathan and everything associated with it. This means the revival of the language, the culture, the gods, the knowledge, and the technology. So that means magical knowledge, like the eluvians, blood magic, arcane warriors, in addition to the technology a crafter can supply his people.

The second is to restore their homeland. Which means finding a land to call home. Set up their findings, each clan learning all they can from the others as one clan may find information another lacks.

The third is teaching the lost ones...the city elves, the old ways.

Essentially they want to rebuild their empire and unite the elves.

Now moving on to Merrill, Merethari, and the dalish elves near Kirkwall. They had just escaped the blight and are camping dangerously close to Kirkwall and its templars. The clan knows that the Keeper has a debt to pay to Ashbelennar (Flemeth) so they expect to stay there for Hawke to show up. Only they were expecting an elf, as the watch outright admits.

While they are there, Merrill and Merethari encounter a demon sealed within a statue. Merethari refuses to even listen to it, while Merrill is more open. Both are knowledgeable about the Fade and the dangers of consorting with demons. Merrill is also holding a piece of the eluvian, likely stashed safely away because of the corruption from the darkspawn.

She learns blood magic from the demon and how to purify the tainted shard. The fact that she stays in close proximity to the shard for over a decade without becoming tainted, or tainting anyone around her is proof that she succeeded.

Merrill uses her blood magic very carefully, only believing in herself when dealing with demons, taking their knowledge as they offer it, but not their deals.

Merethari fears the darkspawn taint, having lost two hunters to the eluvian before it was potentially destroyed by Duncan. She is also afraid of blood magic and what it may lead Merrill too.

So the first time that Hawke meets the Dalish, only a few are suspicious of Merrill, but some, like the crafter mourn her leaving. Merethari even tells Merrill it's not too late to reconsider her path.

On my first playthrough, I'm just wearing a blank look with question marks in my eyes. So I decide to see what's happening as the game progresses.

We come to act 2, and I see the city-born Pol running from Merrill, even more terrified of her than he is of the Varterral. I am absolutely shocked by that happening.

When we get back to camp, Merethari admits she told the clan that Merrill could bring back the taint and that she was a blood mage...then had the audacity to ask her to return. I literally face-palmed at that.

Pol was city-born, and when he greets Hawke, he's all "Praise Andras....the CREATORS!" leading me to believe he was still a believer in the chantry, but didn't want to return to the alienage. So his views are colored by andrastian beliefs regarding blood magic.

But the very moment he ran to his death rather than be rescued by Merrill, I felt it was too late for Merrill to return to the clan, as they all now hated her guts and distrusted her, based entirely on Merethari's opinion, which has no evidence supporting it.

For one thing, Merrill does not control anyone's mind throughout the game, she does not get the taint, or infect anyone else with it. And in Witch Hunt, elves who had gone into that ruin with the eluvian were corrupted by the taint, so we prove that Merrill succeeded in purifying it.

We also have a clear distinction concerning their differing opinions on the eluvian. Merrill is constantly researching a scrap of lore, using a single shard, and is in the process of rebuilding an eluvian from scratch. Merethari believes that such knowledge belongs to another time and should be left well enough alone. She doesn't even want to touch the lore saying it is far too dangerous. She even tries to renege on her deal with Merrill.

Merrill asks for the tool in Act 2, and Merethari says she'll give it to her in exchange for defeating the Varterral. Well, we defeat the varterral but she gives the tool to Hawke and asks he/she NOT give it to Merrill. She broke her deal, and an important dalish rite invoked by Merrill.

In Act 3, the Dalish are pretty fed up with Kirkwall. They want to leave, but have no Halla. They are fed up with Merethari who is keeping them there as she is constantly asking Merrill to return. And because Merrill is a blood mage and may bring back the taint, she becomes an easy target for their hatred and malcontent, to the point that they refuse to even listen to an opinion that isn't theirs.

Granted, the dalish generally do that regardless of Merrill, and the Chantry...and every other culture. Getting off track.

Merrill, knowledgeable about the eluvians, having done a butt load of research and hard work into rebuilding the mirror, is at a dead end. She doesn't know enough to complete it. She recognizes the demon does. She asks Hawke to accompany her up...and should the worst come to pass, kill her.

Up to this point, I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on. Merrill is discovering the lost knowledge, she is trying to rebuild a very large part of the Dalish heritage (and even if they only manage the long distance communication, that would benefit all the clans and the people as a whole). She invoked the rite to obtain a tool, and honored her end of the bargain.

Merethari on the other hand, was doing nothing to help the clan leave. She stuck around asking Merrill to return to a clan that hated her...courtesy of Merethari warning them of blood magic and the taint. She tried to break the deal with Merrill, and she didn't research or even look into any lore on eluvians.

What it came down to for me was simple. Merrill is a world authority of Eluvians, possibly only Morrigan surpassing her in knowledge for getting one started. She is working at a goal to benefit her people worldwide, she is restoring a part of their heritage. Merrill was following the mission of the Dalish.

Merethari was thinking too much like a mother and less a keeper. I don't doubt she cared for Merrill, but I doubt her (un)common sense. She and the Dalish had an opinion, and no amount of evidence would change it.

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

We show up at the cave, and Merethari reveals herself as an abomination. She says the demon planned to escape from the eluvian and Merrill would be the first victim, so she (Merethari) willingly paid the price she feared Merrill would pay.

Again, I facepalmed. Someone who has steadfastly avoided dealing with demons, wouldn't listen to what they say, didn't do ANY research at all eluvians, she seemed to assume a lot. And she was so self-righteous that she wouldn't even consider that Merrill could be correct...and she practically abandoned her duty as a Keeper because of Merrill.

So we have to kill Merethari, and therein any chance of completing the Eluvian because a leader without any facts but a very strong opinion felt her way was the best way.

After we leave the cave, we are confronted by the dalish elves. They didn't know that Merethari was an abomination, so that shows me that Merethari thought it fit to warn them about Merrill but not about herself. And when we tell them that Merethari was an abomination, they, having spent a decade blaming Merrill for them staying there, Pol's death, fearing her because she was a blood mage and could potentially bring back the darkspawn taint.

And having spent so long blaming Merrill, they won't even consider that Merethari made her own choices, that Merrill did the duty of the clan by killing an abomination. All they see is Merrill driving Merethari to desperation...despite the fact that Merrill left the clan roughly a decade earlier and no longer had any claim to them.

They are angry, prejudiced against Hawke as a shemlen, prejudiced against Merrill as a blood mage, afraid of the taint, that they won't even consider the fact that Merrill is helping her people. We are forced to kill them, because I won't take responsibility for Merrill when Merethari was also a completely rational adult who could make her own decisions.

They attack en mass because of hatred and self-righteousness. There is no way they can be in the wrong, it has to be all their fault, the shemlen and the outcast.

Essentially Merrill was accomplishing what Dalish are supposed to do, and she was hated because of it.

Merethari was not doing her duty, unwittingly sowed the seeds of hatred and distrust, because she was thinking more of a witless mother with no long-term plan. In addition to her endangering the clan by becoming an abomination without warning anyone, and abandoning the mission of the dalish by denying any research into the eluvian, and breaking her deal with merrill in act 2.

That's essentially my rant about Merrill and the Dalish. I always romance Merrill as well. She's just so dang cute and intelligent...just naive. Of course, she seems much more sarcastic later in the game than innocently naive. Another trait I like because she pulls it off well.


The Dalish are less arrogant and self-righteous than the Chantry. You gotta admit that. Their hostility towards humans is closed minded, but arguably they live in an age that has yet to see the type of social reform that we're still in the early stages of. So 90% of humans do view elves as less than them.

One thing I've noticed, the stories the humans and city elves tell of the Dalish are mostly false, but most of the stories the Dalish tell about humans are true. They rob, rape, enslave, and abuse them.

And I agree that Marethari's disagreement with Merrill was based on prejudice more than anything. She knew the Eluvian would release the demon yes, and she could have told Merrill that. But anybody who plays Witch Hunt knows the Eluvian is a portal that can be used to transport to other realms or to just communicate.

Also I think most of the taint was purged when Duncan shattered the mirror. If you notice, Finn doesn't become sick when he touches and carries around the shard for scrying purposes.

#260
TEWR

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dragonflight288 wrote...

*snipped the superb post on Merrill being right.*
.



bravo good sir. This is exactly how I feel, save for how I handled the clan. I too facepalmed at the facepalm-inducing moments you mentioned.

#261
AlexXIV

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

*snipped the superb post on Merrill being right.*
.



bravo good sir. This is exactly how I feel, save for how I handled the clan. I too facepalmed at the facepalm-inducing moments you mentioned.

Well why should Merrill's storyline have less weaknesses than other storylines in DA2. Things don't make sense, they just happen and you are supposed to act as if it's all logical and normal. That's what makes is even harder to judge companions and their actions since they at some point just act to support the plot.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:10 .


#262
Forst1999

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Very nice analysis, i agree almost completly.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And since I didn't warn Merethari that Merrill was planning on dealing with the demon, that means that Merethari had become an abomination BEFORE we showed up at the camp. Which means that she believed so much that her way was the right way that she put her entire clan at risk because she couldn't even consider she was wrong about the eluvian.


Just a thought: When Hawke first came to the Dalish camp, Marethari knew he was coming. Maybe she knew that Merrill would be coming the same way, made her conclussions, and the whole "i imprison the demon inside me" thing was made up pretty fast? That could explain her failure to inform anyone about it.

Merrill says when we first meet her than when a Keeper becomes an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.

We show up at the cave, and Merethari reveals herself as an abomination. She says the demon planned to escape from the eluvian and Merrill would be the first victim, so she (Merethari) willingly paid the price she feared Merrill would pay.


I'm not quite sure if "abomination" is the right term. She imprisoned the demon inside her, which sounds different to me than being possessed. She was in control. Considering what it leads to, that's just a technicality though.

Again, I facepalmed. Someone who has steadfastly avoided dealing with demons, wouldn't listen to what they say, didn't do ANY research at all eluvians, she seemed to assume a lot. And she was so self-righteous that she wouldn't even consider that Merrill could be correct...and she practically abandoned her duty as a Keeper because of Merrill.

So we have to kill Merethari, and therein any chance of completing the Eluvian because a leader without any facts but a very strong opinion felt her way was the best way.


I still don't know if Marethari really did know so little about the thing. While the theory LobselVith8 mentioned (the demon possibly told Marethari he would possess Merrill only so that he could possess her instead) is interesting, we have no proof for that. I think the demon would actually have tried, and Marethari made an informed choice (not a wise one though). I think her failure was not being willfully ignorant about the mirror, but knowing something and not sharing this information with Merrill, because she wanted Merrill to simply trust and obey her.

#263
General User

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The Dalish are a people, a culture, not an organization. They do not have a "mission" per-say, only cultural values and imperatives.

Merrill did have a mission, an obsession, and she forsook her people to pursue it.

#264
dragonflight288

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The Dalish are less arrogant and self-righteous than the Chantry. You gotta admit that. Their hostility towards humans is closed minded, but arguably they live in an age that has yet to see the type of social reform that we're still in the early stages of. So 90% of humans do view elves as less than them.

One thing I've noticed, the stories the humans and city elves tell of the Dalish are mostly false, but most of the stories the Dalish tell about humans are true. They rob, rape, enslave, and abuse them.

And I agree that Marethari's disagreement with Merrill was based on prejudice more than anything. She knew the Eluvian would release the demon yes, and she could have told Merrill that. But anybody who plays Witch Hunt knows the Eluvian is a portal that can be used to transport to other realms or to just communicate.

Also I think most of the taint was purged when Duncan shattered the mirror. If you notice, Finn doesn't become sick when he touches and carries around the shard for scrying purposes.


I don't deny the humans and the Chantry are far more arrogant and self-righteous. I was just trying to add my input and stay on topic.

As for why Finn doesn't get tainted. I guess I can ask the same for every soldier fighting the darkspawn on the front lines. Ah well, elves were tainted, Merrill wasn't and had it for years. Finn wasn't tainted, but he is a mage who studied elven artifacts and language extensively (and considering how much he complains about not holding a book open correctly, I'm guessing he took precautions with the shard....only speculation on my part.)

bravo good sir. This is exactly how I feel, save for how I handled the clan. I too facepalmed at the facepalm-inducing moments you mentioned.


*bows* and that Messer, is why I'm here.

Well why should Merrill's storyline have less weaknesses than other storylines in DA2. Things don't make sense, they just happen and you are supposed to act as if it's all logical and normal. That's what makes is even harder to judge companions and their actions since they at some point just act to support the plot.


Oh it does have holes, like everyone else's storylines. Anders is an abomination who for the most part is aware of himself. Fenris has a mage-sister and views any magic as filthy and unclean and has problems differentiating corruption of power without magic as anything of equal note compared to the evils of magic. Aveline lets Hawke and company run around free, often breaking laws but won't turn a blind eye to anyone else...etc etc etc.

I personally think Merrill inspires such heated debate because her storyline affects more than just herself or the party, but has potentially devastating consequences that we player's cannot fully grasp at the beginning based on ignorance of the subject matter itself. So we add in supposition and conjecture, then begin to see evidence to support whether or not the Eluvian is good or bad. Everyone else has it pretty clear cut what they are for and against.

#265
dragonflight288

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I still don't know if Marethari really did know so little about the thing. While the theory LobselVith8 mentioned (the demon possibly told Marethari he would possess Merrill only so that he could possess her instead) is interesting, we have no proof for that. I think the demon would actually have tried, and Marethari made an informed choice (not a wise one though). I think her failure was not being willfully ignorant about the mirror, but knowing something and not sharing this information with Merrill, because she wanted Merrill to simply trust and obey her.


Well...yes. It is rather murky how much Merethari did know. I base my opinions on in-game evidence that we see. All I know is Merethari didn't present us evidence to support her claims, and she did try to destroy Merrill and Hawke as a demon. Whether or not she was in control at the time she was telling us about imprisoning the demon inside herself, she clearly couldn't keep control (if she had it to begin with.)

So yes...I can figure she knew more than we are shown, but we aren't given any evidence to prove her point. Only what happened to Tamlen and potential-Warden because of the darkspawn taint.

The Dalish are a people, a culture, not an organization. They do not
have a "mission" per-say, only cultural values and imperatives.

Merrill did have a mission, an obsession, and she forsook her people to pursue it.


Well yes. But they became Dalish to hold onto their dying culture. And two completely different clans tell us the same story about what they are about. Each clan does their own thing but they all try to find and restore ancient elven artifacts...supposedly.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:37 .


#266
AlexXIV

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Well some character flaws could be seen as human weaknesses. Aveline turning a blind eye one Hawke, Anders is not really possessed, he merged with a spirit of the fade. There is a difference to possession. Even though probably not too much of a difference considering the struggle between Anders and Justice at some points. Anyway I don't mind if characters make mistakes or not always act logical. That's even charming. But if someone acts outright illogical and everyone acts as if it is logical then it is just hole in the story. I mean that's really something you'd expect the writers to avoid. But obviously writing a good story under pressure doesn't always work too well.

Ah well, ranting again. Anyway, what makes it difficult to judge characters is that you don't know if what you see is what the writers intended you to see. I mean you may see someone act stupid so you think ok, this guy is stupid. But maybe the writers never intended him or her to be stupid. It was just a mistake or not well delivered. So you get a completely wrong impression of a character by the one(s) telling the story. That's just like with any story you hear. I mean if you are not eyewitness you have to rely on the people who tell it to you to be accurate to a certain point.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:42 .


#267
dragonflight288

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And even then it's hard to 100% trust eye-witnesses because personal bias may subconsciously influence their opinions.

But I have listed my (very long *pant pant pant*) views on the Dalish, Merrill and Merethari in DA2. People can either disagree or agree as they see fit. I have my opinions and logical reasons supporting them. That's all I can really say.

#268
AlexXIV

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dragonflight288 wrote...

And even then it's hard to 100% trust eye-witnesses because personal bias may subconsciously influence their opinions.

But I have listed my (very long *pant pant pant*) views on the Dalish, Merrill and Merethari in DA2. People can either disagree or agree as they see fit. I have my opinions and logical reasons supporting them. That's all I can really say.

Well I agree with you mostly. But I am not sure if we can take everything we saw in DA2 at face value. So sometimes I think we are too harsh with the keeper. It wasn't her who wrote the story.

#269
dragonflight288

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Well I agree with you mostly. But I am not sure if we can take everything we saw in DA2 at face value. So sometimes I think we are too harsh with the keeper. It wasn't her who wrote the story.


You may be right. All I actually know is based on in-game evidence and the conclusions I drew from them. Maybe a DLC will come out that will show more of Merethari's side...say a post-game thing where we get the input from other clans.

#270
General User

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dragonflight288 wrote...

The Dalish are a people, a culture, not an organization. They do not have a "mission" per-say, only cultural values and imperatives. 

Merrill did have a mission, an obsession, and she forsook her people to pursue it.

Well yes. But they became Dalish to hold onto their dying culture. And two completely different clans tell us the same story about what they are about. Each clan does their own thing but they all try to find and restore ancient elven artifacts...supposedly.

They became Dalish because they lost a war (a couple of them actually), their only choices were to become Dalish Wanderers or accept human overlordship as city elves. 

When Dalish seek to find and restore ancient elven artifacts and lore they do not/should not do so at the expense of the now, of the people in the now or their obligations in the now.  That's near the heart of where Merrill went wrong; she was so focused on the past and her vision of the future, that she lost sight of the present.

#271
Heimdall

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AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah obviously it is a question how to deal with ancient artifacts. Study them or throw them in a hole and earth on it in case they are evil. Most people would probably think studying it is the better course of action, even if they are 'cursed'. Because I really don't see how something that is dangerous becomes less of a danger by ignoring it instead of trying to find out what it is.

The problem being that, if you unearth it, do you unleash that danger on the world?  Or do you let it sit safely sealed away where it couldn't hurt anyone.

No the problem is that people really believe they can safely lock away things or people. But someone eventually finds or unlocks it. That's how things start every single time. The mirror was hidden away for ages and then someone found it, the idol was locked away in the deeproads but then someone found it. Given enough time there will always be someone finding whatever you hid and 'locked away safely'. And then you don't know who finds it and what he or she is using it for and then the world is unprepared because nobody even knows that it exists.

That's why I think that responsible people should make researches. For once to avoid getting powerful things into hands of unresponsible people and for the other that the world is not completely unaware of the danger when one day they are getting confronted with it. This claim of safety is just setting yourself up for the next catastrophe in the future. You don't erase the danger, you delay it.

It is obvious that dark and evil ancient things slumber deep under the surface of Thedas. And just pretending they are not there does not make them go away. And if people don't learn about them or a way to deal with them properly they will be set off at some point anyway. If you know your house is build on a former mine field, will you search the ground to find them and secure them or will you just let them be there and pretend they don't exist until someone triggers one?

And what if you really are safe?  What if the only thing unleashing this danger on Thedas is your need to study it?  The notion that a danger must be destroyed completly only is true if it can be destroyed.  The old elves had no need to fear the mirror because they knew how to use it.  The Dalish don't.  Catastrophe that did not imperil the ancient elves could very well befall them easily because they don't undertand what their doing.  Studying it sounds like a good solution on paper, but the only way to study it it to put everyone at risk as they would not be if they had simply let it lie.  Delaying the danger is better than causeing it, don't you think?  Old evils, like, say, Corypheus, were not sealed away because the Wardens thought it was a better solution than killing it.  They were sealed because they couldn't kill him, and it was the next best thing.

#272
Bayz

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[quote]esper wrote...

:blink:What? Are you honestly comparing supporting Merrill to mass exterminating people against their will? That's just... I really don't know how to respond to that.
[/quote]

Well what did your Hawke did in the Dalish camp? Oh and often exterminating people tend to go against their will...just for the record.


[/quote]

I don't want to derail the topic so I will be as brief in the matter as I can.

United NationsConvention on the Prevention and
Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).

Look it up

Ethically the elves of Merril's clan did NOT want the "gift" Merril was offering, they stated several times they did not want anything to do with it, they considered it evil and they did want nothing to do with it.

Yet Merril went all "For science!" and kept going, they reacted as any group of people with their believes and life experiences could get to react if stuff like this happened. They did not kn ow Marethari had a demon inside, they did not trust Merril could actually cleanse it, Merril didn't know the extent of this could happen, yet she didn't cared that it might, only obsessively caring about the Eluvian.

And yet it eneded up triggering the execution of her whole clan. You know, if you provoke a group with intent that it will attack you and then wipe said group out, you are still committing genocide, maybe you would like to call it something else, call it "self-defense" or "giving them cookies", but if you ended up in the Hage being trialled for it changing its name will not help you, and screaming "it was for progress" will be a bad case for you...

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .


#273
Xilizhra

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And yet it eneded up triggering the execution of her whole clan. You know, if you provoke a group with intent that it will attack you and then wipe said group out, you are still committing genocide, maybe you would like to call it something else, call it "self-defense" or "giving them cookies", but if you ended up in the Hage being trialled for it changing its name will not help you, and screaming "it was for progress" will be a bad case for you...

And you claim that simply telling these nutbars the truth in a nonconfrontational manner counts as provocation?

#274
Bayz

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Nope I claim that keep going against what the majority of the clan (as in every single one but Merril) after having being warned in several ways, times and languages counts as it.

I don't want to put real life examples.

#275
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Bayz wrote...

Nope I claim that keep going against what the majority of the clan (as in every single one but Merril) after having being warned in several ways, times and languages counts as it.

I don't want to put real life examples.

So just because she was doing something the rest of the clan didn't approve of meant they were justified in attempting to murder her? So Merrill should feel obligated to do whatever they tell her, even though they are all uninformed and bigoted?

Oh, and I don't mean to be rude, but this has started to annoy me: It's "Merrill", not "Merril". Two "L"s.