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[esper]

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]esper wrote...

:blink:What? Are you honestly comparing supporting Merrill to mass exterminating people against their will? That's just... I really don't know how to respond to that.
[/quote]

Well what did your Hawke did in the Dalish camp? Oh and often exterminating people tend to go against their will...just for the record.


[/quote]

I don't want to derail the topic so I will be as brief in the matter as I can.

United NationsConvention on the Prevention and
Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).

Look it up

Ethically the elves of Merril's clan did NOT want the "gift" Merril was offering, they stated several times they did not want anything to do with it, they considered it evil and they did want nothing to do with it.

Yet Merril went all "For science!" and kept going, they reacted as any group of people with their believes and life experiences could get to react if stuff like this happened. They did not kn ow Marethari had a demon inside, they did not trust Merril could actually cleanse it, Merril didn't know the extent of this could happen, yet she didn't cared that it might, only obsessively caring about the Eluvian.

And yet it eneded up triggering the execution of her whole clan. You know, if you provoke a group with intent that it will attack you and then wipe said group out, you are still committing genocide, maybe you would like to call it something else, call it "self-defense" or "giving them cookies", but if you ended up in the Hage being trialled for it changing its name will not help you, and screaming "it was for progress" will be a bad case for you...

[/quote]

Hawke did not provoke the group with the intent of getting them to attack her. Saying 'we had no choice your keeper was an abormination' is NOT provoking. It is a way of trying to calm both sides down. And any trial would realisng that a whole group of fifty or more (I don't know how many the dalish clans is, but I refused to believe less than fifty) attacking four persons is not extermination. Those four person are acting in self defense. The dalish raised their swords way before my Hawke raised her staff and has wholly themself to blame for their dead.

Also you keep acting like Hawke know before hand how it will end. Untill Mathari took the demon in the only one who was in danger was Merrill. Mathari took the final deal with the demon and the clan attacked Hawke. You don't even hand the option to hand Merrill over.

If you want to use your stupid science example then Merrill is the scientist studying a potiential dangerous viruos. Mathari is the person getting infected on purpose with the virus just to prove it is dangerous. And the clan is the mob attacking the scientist and the guard out of fear. Well I am sorry, but the scientis and the guard is no danger to the mob at the moment the mob attacks because the virus has been destroyed with the infected. and so the mob has no right to atttack and the scientiest and the guards has every right to defend themself.  

It is selfdefense, because Hawke doesn't have metagame knowlegde and know that there is a walk away dialog option, end any modern trial would regonize that.  

[Forst1999]

General User wrote...

They became Dalish because they lost a war (a couple of them actually), their only choices were to become Dalish Wanderers or accept human overlordship as city elves. 

When Dalish seek to find and restore ancient elven artifacts and lore they do not/should not do so at the expense of the now, of the people in the now or their obligations in the now.  That's near the heart of where Merrill went wrong; she was so focused on the past and her vision of the future, that she lost sight of the present.

When they became Dalish they did so to preserve and restore elven culture. It is explecitly stated that it is a Keeper's place to remember. Merrill just did what she was supposed to. That it conflicted with the present was Marethari's decision.  I see your point, but i think that with the present state of the dalish, active meassures are needed.

[Xilizhra]

Bayz wrote...

Nope I claim that keep going against what the majority of the clan (as in every single one but Merril) after having being warned in several ways, times and languages counts as it.

I don't want to put real life examples.

Let's see... I've done a total of three things, none of which were likely to put the clan in danger, and two of them were actually orders from Marethari. Then Marethari gets possessed, we have to kill the demon, and then the whole clan feels it has a right to kill us? If we hadn't been there, Audacity would either have eaten them all, or just run off and been all abominationy (though the fact that it hung around would seem to imply that it really wanted Merrill dead).

[Bayz]

I did not say Hawke did know or provoked the elves. I was not talking about him.

Neither the elves could metagame, know that Marethari was an abomination, know that Merril actually could clean the Eluvian etc...on the other hand some of this elves even come from scaped city elves with all the Chantry stuff about Tevinter and the Taint on them.

They are just perjuiced against the Eluvian for tainting two members and perjuiced against Merril, whom Marethari had been most of the time we have seen treating her as a child more than as her actual sucessor and who keeps going with this Eluvian crap every once in a while.

I wasn't using an stupid "for science" example, I was saying "for science" because I was remembering Doctor Insano.
She is not studying a potential virus. She is unlocking the security of an overgrown iPod. There is a difference, the Eluvian wasn't around killing elves and Jaywalking. It was sitting there awaiting for people to try use it and them taint them and laugh afterwards before feeling itself alone again and await for the next group.

I said it is not self defense. It is giving them cookies, and yes read some trials in cases like this and see how many of them claim self defense and how it does end. It is not like there is no real life examples, I just rather not bring them to a videogame forum .

[General User]

Forst1999 wrote...

General User wrote...

They became Dalish because they lost a war (a couple of them actually), their only choices were to become Dalish Wanderers or accept human overlordship as city elves. 

When Dalish seek to find and restore ancient elven artifacts and lore they do not/should not do so at the expense of the now, of the people in the now or their obligations in the now.  That's near the heart of where Merrill went wrong; she was so focused on the past and her vision of the future, that she lost sight of the present.

When they became Dalish they did so to preserve and restore elven culture. It is explecitly stated that it is a Keeper's place to remember. Merrill just did what she was supposed to. That it conflicted with the present was Marethari's decision.  I see your point, but i think that with the present state of the dalish, active meassures are needed.

The present state of that Clan is that they are wounded by The Blight, bereft of their halla, and stranded in the Vinmarks. 

That being the case, do you really believe Merrill is better serving her people (specifically her clan) by willfully disobeying her Keeper, choosing exile, and consorting with demons to try and restore an eluvian, than she would be by guiding, ministering to, aiding with magic, and yes remembering for her Clan the lore they do have?  Really?

Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:01 .

[Xilizhra]

That being the case, do you really think Merrill is better serving her people (specifically her clan) by willfully disobeying her Keeper, choosing exile, and consorting with demons to try and restore an eluvian, than she would be by guiding, ministering to, aiding with magic, and yes remembering for her Clan the lore they do have?

Yes. Given that they hate everything she tries to do, I doubt she could do much to help them. Though even she would be better than the prideful deceptive demon summoner-turned-abomination that they had before...

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

I did not say Hawke did know or provoked the elves. I was not talking about him.

Neither the elves could metagame, know that Marethari was an abomination, know that Merril actually could clean the Eluvian etc...on the other hand some of this elves even come from scaped city elves with all the Chantry stuff about Tevinter and the Taint on them.

They are just perjuiced against the Eluvian for tainting two members and perjuiced against Merril, whom Marethari had been most of the time we have seen treating her as a child more than as her actual sucessor and who keeps going with this Eluvian crap every once in a while.

I wasn't using an stupid "for science" example, I was saying "for science" because I was remembering Doctor Insano.
She is not studying a potential virus. She is unlocking the security of an overgrown iPod. There is a difference, the Eluvian wasn't around killing elves and Jaywalking. It was sitting there awaiting for people to try use it and them taint them and laugh afterwards before feeling itself alone again and await for the next group.

I said it is not self defense. It is giving them cookies, and yes read some trials in cases like this and see how many of them claim self defense and how it does end. It is not like there is no real life examples, I just rather not bring them to a videogame forum .

you started with the real life examples.
And the purpose of the elvuian isn't to taint people - first of it is a mirror not a thing and second off it is not sentinent. I used the virus example because it was the closest thing to a demon I could find and it is the demon that infects Marathari not the taint.

When peopel come at me with the intent to poke arrows, swords or daggers into me I ussally assume that they want to kill me. It was self defense and as self defensely as it can get. And yes, the dalish didn't have meta game knowlegde, but they also doesn't have a right to try an kill Hawke. A mob does not have a right to kill someone they fear just because they fear them and they happened to be the majority. Had one of the dalish clan not tried to shoot her, Hawke would not have attacked that specific person, but everyone tried to shoot her and Hawke could not leave the mountin alive without killing them. If she could, she would.

[Bayz]

She actually could, but I am not repeating myself any longer. Read the Thread.

[Forst1999]

General User wrote...

The present state of that Clan is that they are wounded by The Blight, bereft of their halla, and stranded in the Vinmarks. 

That being the case, do you really think Merrill is better serving her people (specifically her clan) by willfully disobeying her Keeper, choosing exile, and consorting with demons to try and restore an eluvian, than she would be by guiding, ministering to, aiding with magic, and yes remembering for her Clan the lore they do have?

I don't see how Merrill abandoning the Eluvian would solve the clan's problems. Yes, she could have helped Marethari caring for the clan. But not in a great extent. I wouldn't have brought the Halla back, and most other imediate needs Marethari seemed to handle quite well. That Merrill wasn't allowed to do both, taking care of  the clan and restoring history, was Marethari's decision.

[Wulfram]

Merrill doesn't have the social self confidence to believe she could be a good keeper. That's one reason she's so obsessed by the mirror - to her, it's the only way she can really contribute to her people.

[Bayz]

A shame her people did not want that contribution. And that they got killed for it.

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

She actually could, but I am not repeating myself any longer. Read the Thread.

No she couldn't because she does not know the third option exits.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

That being the case, do you really think Merrill is better serving her people (specifically her clan) by willfully disobeying her Keeper, choosing exile, and consorting with demons to try and restore an eluvian, than she would be by guiding, ministering to, aiding with magic, and yes remembering for her Clan the lore they do have?

Yes. Given that they hate everything she tries to do, I doubt she could do much to help them. Though even she would be better than the prideful deceptive demon summoner-turned-abomination that they had before...

We'll never know how much Merrill could have done to help her Clan, because she never tried.  Not the real them anyway, she imagined a bright future for them (even one without her in it) through her eluvian studies.  But that wasn't the real Dalish, that wasn't her real Clan, that was her obsession.

Forst1999 wrote...
I don't see how Merrill abandoning the Eluvian would solve the clan's problems. Yes, she could have helped Marethari caring for the clan. But not in a great extent. I wouldn't have brought the Halla back, and most other imediate needs Marethari seemed to handle quite well. That Merrill wasn't allowed to do both, taking care of  the clan and restoring history, was Marethari's decision.

If it was Marethari's decision, should not Merrill have deferred to her judgement? 

It's not about solving the clan's problems, it's about helping to solve them and knowing one's place in doing so.

Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:16 .

[Forst1999]

Wulfram wrote...

Merrill doesn't have the social self confidence to believe she could be a good keeper. That's one reason she's so obsessed by the mirror - to her, it's the only way she can really contribute to her people.

Fine point, her dialogue supports that. I was going to attribute her decision to choose the mirror over helping out Marethari to pride, the Eluvian being the project with the bigger possible benefits for the elves. But i think you point is more inportant.

[Bayz]

esper wrote...

Bayz wrote...

She actually could, but I am not repeating myself any longer. Read the Thread.

No she couldn't because she does not know the third option exits.

She does not know that she is the Keepers successor and that Marethari will die before she does?



Sauce or never happened. AFAIK Merril was not retarded.

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[Bayz]

Keeping in mind I've been defending that for the last 3 pages it seemed crystal clear for me. Apologize for that.

But Read the thread.

[Forst1999]

General User wrote...

If it was Marethari's decision, should not Merrill have deferred to her judgement? 

It's not about solving the clan's problems, it's about helping to solve them and knowing one's place in doing so.

As Marethari's reasons for opposing the Eluvian (the removable taint and blood magic) aren't exactly convincing, i can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it. The dalish will always have troubles, and Merrill believed that she could better serve her people by doing something for the future.

Modifié par Forst1999, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:31 .

[Xilizhra]

We'll never know how much Merrill could have done to help her Clan, because she never tried. Not the real them anyway, she imagined a bright future for them (even one without her in it) through her eluvian studies. But that wasn't the real Dalish, that wasn't her real Clan, that was her obsession.

Considering how idiotic and retrograde Merrill's clan is, I can hardly blame her for imagining a bright future.

[Bayz]

What I said. It makes me really wary this tendency of "X people are retrograde, so in butchering them we are actually helping them!!"

I mean do not misunderstand me, I thought it was a great thing in the 19th Century but we are quite more evolved since or so I like to believe (which the internet keeps proving me wrong)

[AlexXIV]

Bayz wrote...

What I said. It makes me really wary this tendency of "X people are retrograde, so in butchering them we are actually helping them!!"

I mean do not misunderstand me, I thought it was a great thing in the 19th Century but we are quite more evolved since or so I like to believe (which the internet keeps proving me wrong)

Not sure why you keep saying that, but they are not being butchered. Firstly you have the option to take the blame and leave without harming anyone. Secondly if you don't then they attack. You don't blame people for butchering people in Kirkwall at night either. They attack, you defend. It's not Hawke or Merrill who make the choice, it's the clan. And as sorry as I am for the elves, if they choose to fight they will have to deal with the consequences, being that they die.

[Xilizhra]

What I said. It makes me really wary this tendency of "X people are retrograde, so in butchering them we are actually helping them!!"

I didn't butcher them.

[General User]

Forst1999 wrote...
As Marethari's reasons for opposing the Eluvian (the removable taint and blood magic) aren't exactly convincing, i can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it.

You can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it?  To your way of thinking, why is that? 

I can see why she disagreed with her Keeper about restoring the eluvian, but no further. Disagreeing with one's superiors does not excuse disobeying them.

Forst1999 wrote...
The dalish will always have troubles, and Merrill believed that she could better serve her people by doing something for the future.

Such is the folly of youth.

Xilizhra wrote...
Considering how idiotic and retrograde Merrill's clan is, I can hardly blame her for imagining a bright future.

I don't understand.  Are you trying to say that Merrill's imagination and reality bear little resemblance to one another?

[Forst1999]

[quote]Bayz wrote...

What I said. It makes me really wary this tendency of "X people are retrograde, so in butchering them we are actually helping them!!"
/quote]

No one ever said that. You might equate "not listening to your superiors when they  make no sense, thus starting a chain of events in which several people make wrong calls, concluding in vindicative people trying to murder you" with "slaughtering everyone", but stop twisting words.