544 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I don't understand. Are you trying to say that Merrill's imagination and reality bear little resemblance to one another?

Well, as Merrill imagined that her clan would rather restore itself to some semblance of its former self instead of decay into nothingness, I suppose I am.

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...
As Marethari's reasons for opposing the Eluvian (the removable taint and blood magic) aren't exactly convincing, i can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it.

You can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it?  To your way of thinking, why is that? 

I can see why she disagreed with her Keeper about restoring the eluvian, but no further. Disagreeing with one's superiors does not excuse disobeying them.

Forst1999 wrote...
The dalish will always have troubles, and Merrill believed that she could better serve her people by doing something for the future.

Such is the folly of youth.

Xilizhra wrote...
Considering how idiotic and retrograde Merrill's clan is, I can hardly blame her for imagining a bright future.

I don't understand.  Are you trying to say that Merrill's imagination and reality bear little resemblance to one another?

They don't have military structures. The worst thing they do is banning people from the clan. Like they did with Velanna in Awakenings too. And then they simply walk seperate ways. Remember how Marethari gives Mahariel to the Wardens? She said something along 'we mourn her because she is already lost'. Obviously she does not cling to everyone of the clan as much as to Merrill. I could understand that she feels guilty because it was her who sent the Warden and Merrill to search for Tamlen. Well in my playthrough, since my Warden is a Dalish after all.

Anyway, she had the right to ban Merrill, to tell her to never come back, etc. But beyond that she had no right to lord her life. It's Merrill's choice if she wants to become Keeper or rather do something different. The Dalish are no communists after all. As far as I know anyway.

[Forst1999]

General User wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...
As Marethari's reasons for opposing the Eluvian (the removable taint and blood magic) aren't exactly convincing, i can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it.

You can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it?  To your way of thinking, why is that? 

I can see why she disagreed with her Keeper about restoring the eluvian, but no further. Disagreeing with one's superiors does not excuse disobeying them.

So she left the clan, Marethri is no longer her superior. She isn't property of the clan, she is an adult, free woman that must do what she thinks is the right thing to do.

[Bayz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

What I said. It makes me really wary this tendency of "X people are retrograde, so in butchering them we are actually helping them!!"

I mean do not misunderstand me, I thought it was a great thing in the 19th Century but we are quite more evolved since or so I like to believe (which the internet keeps proving me wrong)

I don't believe that anybody has actually expressed the opinion that killing the clan was helping them; just that, as the clan attacked first, Hawke and Merrill are morally blameless for their deaths.

OK. We provoked them to become hostile, so we are just defending ourselves. Happy now? Don't see the moral blameless bit as we have been warned that it might happen, not to that scale but anyway.

It is like saying that it is Leliana's fault to die if you corrupt the urn of sacred ashes and she attacks you.

AlexXIV wrote...

Not sure why you keep saying that, but
they are not being butchered. Firstly you have the option to take the
blame and leave without harming anyone. Secondly if you don't then they
attack. You don't blame people for butchering people in Kirkwall at
night either. They attack, you defend. It's not Hawke or Merrill who
make the choice, it's the clan. And as sorry as I am for the elves, if
they choose to fight they will have to deal with the consequences, being
that they die.

Didn't know the first bit. Will try in my "Paragon Hawke" gameplay when I try. It is different from burglars launching an all on assault against you just to take your money than an entire clan of elves who had not treated you specially bad in the past.

Forst1999 wrote...

No one ever said that. You might equate
"not listening to your superiors when they  make no sense, thus
starting a chain of events in which several people make wrong calls,
concluding in vindicative people trying to murder you" with
"slaughtering everyone", but stop twisting words.

You might equate "Wait until you do fulfill your duties and take command and then keep on with the very last part of the ritual" with "leaving the Eluvian forever rotting in a cave into oblivion", but stop twisting words.

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[AlexXIV]

Yeah you should try it. Just pick the option in which Hawke says something along 'It's not Merrill's fault, it was my choice'. They will still not be happy but at least let you leave peacefully. Funny though how protecting Merrill by taking the blame is the only way to save the clan.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't understand. Are you trying to say that Merrill's imagination and reality bear little resemblance to one another?

Well, as Merrill imagined that her clan would rather restore itself to some semblance of its former self instead of decay into nothingness, I suppose I am.

Merrill's Clan are not bad people.  What they would rather to do is remain together through all they have endured and endure still.  They do not wish to decay, but the truth is that if the Dalish are to have a real future they must first have a present, and that's where Merrill abandoned them, in the present.

Forst1999 wrote...
So she left the clan, Marethri is no longer
her superior. She isn't property of the clan, she is an adult, free
woman that must do what she thinks is the right thing to do.

Marty, you're just not thinking 4th dimensionally tribally.  As the Clan's first Merrill has an obligation to serve her clan by obeying her Keeper.  Not following her own vision.

Sebastian said it best: "None of us are free."

AlexXIV wrote...
Anyway, she had the right to ban
Merrill, to tell her to never come back, etc. But beyond that she had no
right to lord her life. It's Merrill's choice if she wants to become
Keeper or rather do something different.

  When Merrill was Marethari's First, Marethari did indeed have a right to lord over her life.  And it is ultimately the Clan's decison if they will accept Merrill as their Keeper or not.

AlexXIV wrote...
The Dalish are no communists
after all. As far as I know anyway.

The Dalish are a tribal/clan-based society.

[Xilizhra]

If it actually did work, I'd think it was most likely that something between 1 and 2 would happen.

Merrill's Clan are not bad people. What they would rather to do is remain together through all they have endured and endure still. They do not wish to decay, but the truth is that if the Dalish are to have a real future they must first have a present, and that's where Merrill abandoned them, in the present.

I contest that first sentence. They seem to be, in large part, ****s to anyone who isn't part of their clan, definitely moreso than Zathrian's clan was, which was only mildly suspicious.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[Bayz]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The only case in which Marethari cannot be blamed is (2A). Coincidentally, that is the case which I consider the most probable. Despite my affinity with the Dalish (I would be Dalish if I were in the DA universe), they are no less racist or prejudiced than the Andrastians or the Qunari.

Agreed in that. People have to remember elves are rebuilding their culture from scratch and had been suffering enough under human rule that some stuff went in by osmosis. To that they have to keep in mind also their own narrow mindedness from before the human invasions (Tevinter first, then the Chantry).

Marethari is a bit guilty even in 2A, as every interaction I remember her having with Merril and her clan is as if Merril was just an innocent child, without responsabilities. This will help the clan see her in said eyes as Marethari is the leader of it, she should have showed more confidence in her at least in front of her people IMO, specially considering she was going to be the new Keeper. Allowing her to slowly learn what her new leadership position will mean.

But I do not believe that it makes Marethari the one guilty of having her clan uhh...been given cookies.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill's Clan are not bad people. What they would rather to do is remain together through all they have endured and endure still. They do not wish to decay, but the truth is that if the Dalish are to have a real future they must first have a present, and that's where Merrill abandoned them, in the present.

I contest that first sentence. They seem to be, in large part, ****s to anyone who isn't part of their clan, definitely moreso than Zathrian's clan was, which was only mildly suspicious.

How does Merrill's Clanmates (whom she herself describes as "good people who watch out for one another) being largely hostile (though, it should be noted, not violent without cause) to anyone who isn't part of their clan make them bad people?

Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Bayz]

Because they didn't want internet. People who refuse the internet are heathens and bad people by definition and must be purged apparently.

[jlb524]

General User wrote...
How does Merrill's Clanmates (whom she herself describes as "good people who watch out for one another) being largely hostile (though, it should be noted, not violent without cause) to anyone who isn't part of their clan make them bad people?

Merrill only ever sees inter-clan interactions and not the clan interacting with those outside.

Not that I think the clan are 'bad people' (cuz I don't...they're just irrational).

Bayz wrote...

Because they didn't want internet. People who refuse the internet are heathens and bad people by definition and must be purged apparently.

Nice strawman.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[Forst1999]

General User wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...
So she left the clan, Marethri is no longer
her superior. She isn't property of the clan, she is an adult, free
woman that must do what she thinks is the right thing to do.

Marty, you're just not thinking 4th dimensionally tribally.  As the Clan's first Merrill has an obligation to serve her clan by obeying her Keeper.  Not following her own vision.

Sebastian said it best: "None of us are free."

I disagree with you (and Sebastian) here. That it is the social norm to obey a certain person doesn't make it automaticly right.
And that the Dalish actually let her go without any sanctions (permanent banishment, exclusion from dalish rights like vir sulevanan) means that she is free to go her own path. And it isn't just her own vision, but something inherently connected with her purpose.

[esper]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill's Clan are not bad people. What they would rather to do is remain together through all they have endured and endure still. They do not wish to decay, but the truth is that if the Dalish are to have a real future they must first have a present, and that's where Merrill abandoned them, in the present.

I contest that first sentence. They seem to be, in large part, ****s to anyone who isn't part of their clan, definitely moreso than Zathrian's clan was, which was only mildly suspicious.

How does Merrill's Clanmates (whom she herself describes as "good people who watch out for one another) being largely hostile (though, it should be noted, not violent without cause) to anyone who isn't part of their clan make them bad people?

They are not bad people for being hostile, but they do decide to try and kill Hawke and the three others. If you try to kill someone you cannot call it genocide or purge if that someone defends themself. 

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

I contest that first sentence. They seem to be, in large part, ****s to anyone who isn't part of their clan, definitely moreso than Zathrian's clan was, which was only mildly suspicious.

You were a warden in DAO. There is a difference.

I expect clans to be hostile to any human they come across, the mood being set by the first bit of the Dalish Origin.

[Heimdall]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The question is, if Merrill indeed manages to fix the Eluvian, and presents the result to her clan. A glorious gateway to the ancient glory of the Elves. Would the clan:

(1) Finally open their eyes, admit how wrong they were, and follow Merrill's path;

(2) Destroy the Mirror and stone Merrill to death for practicing forbidden Magic.

If (1) is true, then Merrill is perfect and blameless. She is a heroic innovator who was undeservedly punished. Like Nikola Tesla.

If (2) is true, then Merrill was naive and stupid, despite meaning well. There are again two reasons for this:

(2A) The Dalish are simply stupid and prejudiced, like the Andrastian Humans;

(2B) The Dalish were actually open-minded, and (1) would have happened were it not for Marethari's influence.

The only case in which Marethari cannot be blamed is (2A). Coincidentally, that is the case which I consider the most probable. Despite my fondness of the Dalish, they are no less racist or prejudiced than the Andrastians or the Qunari.

Where's the option that Merrill complete's the mirror, lets a demon onto the physical plane, and gets possessed?

[Bayz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

You were a warden in DAO. There is a difference.

I expect clans to be hostile to any human they come across, the mood being set by the first bit of the Dalish Origin.

I have been actually impressed in DA2 with the almost warming welcome that the Elves did to Hawke when he approached their camp. I mean warming as in "Not KoS" kind of thing, which is the impression I got from their reception of humans in Origins, actually that very clan in the Dalish Elf Origin.

That's why I want to know more between Flemmeth's relationship with the elves.

[Bayz]

Lord Aesir wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The question is, if Merrill indeed manages to fix the Eluvian, and presents the result to her clan. A glorious gateway to the ancient glory of the Elves. Would the clan:

(1) Finally open their eyes, admit how wrong they were, and follow Merrill's path;

(2) Destroy the Mirror and stone Merrill to death for practicing forbidden Magic.

If (1) is true, then Merrill is perfect and blameless. She is a heroic innovator who was undeservedly punished. Like Nikola Tesla.

If (2) is true, then Merrill was naive and stupid, despite meaning well. There are again two reasons for this:

(2A) The Dalish are simply stupid and prejudiced, like the Andrastian Humans;

(2B) The Dalish were actually open-minded, and (1) would have happened were it not for Marethari's influence.

The only case in which Marethari cannot be blamed is (2A). Coincidentally, that is the case which I consider the most probable. Despite my fondness of the Dalish, they are no less racist or prejudiced than the Andrastians or the Qunari.

Where's the option that Merrill complete's the mirror, lets a demon onto the physical plane, and gets possessed?

Not to forget the option that she had actually been possesed already and had planned her clan's demise since, but I rather not go for that.

[Heimdall]

Forst1999 wrote...

General User wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...
So she left the clan, Marethri is no longer
her superior. She isn't property of the clan, she is an adult, free
woman that must do what she thinks is the right thing to do.

Marty, you're just not thinking 4th dimensionally tribally.  As the Clan's first Merrill has an obligation to serve her clan by obeying her Keeper.  Not following her own vision.

Sebastian said it best: "None of us are free."

I disagree with you (and Sebastian) here. That it is the social norm to obey a certain person doesn't make it automaticly right.
And that the Dalish actually let her go without any sanctions (permanent banishment, exclusion from dalish rights like vir sulevanan) means that she is free to go her own path. And it isn't just her own vision, but something inherently connected with her purpose.

I think Sebastian was talking about responsibility, not social norms.  As a First, one could argue that Merrill had the responsibility to obey the wisdom of her teacher, especially in matters of the elvhen in which the Keeper is most knowledgable.  Merrill instead abandoned her responsibility as a First and took on a task her clan disagreed with in their name.

Not that I embrace this argument, just saying.  I do think Merrill was a bit hard headed going into this and refusing to take any advice.

[Xilizhra]

How does Merrill's Clanmates (whom she herself describes as "good people who watch out for one another) being largely hostile (though, it should be noted, not violent without cause) to anyone who isn't part of their clan make them bad people?

They are violent without cause. They believe themselves to have it at one point, but it's utterly wrong and their doom wholly self-inflicted. If Hawke doesn't lie, of course.

[General User]

jlb524 wrote...

General User wrote...
How does Merrill's Clanmates (whom she herself describes as "good people who watch out for one another) being largely hostile (though, it should be noted, not violent without cause) to anyone who isn't part of their clan make them bad people?

Merrill only ever sees inter-clan interactions and not the clan interacting with those outside.

Not that I think the clan are 'bad people' (cuz I don't...they're just irrational).

I'm pretty sure Merrill was only talking about the way her Clan interacts amongst itself, not about any outsiders Dalish or shemlen.  Why?  Because it wasn't really relevant.  I don't think there's nothing inherently wrong with how the Dalish treat outsiders.

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...
The Dalish are a tribal/clan-based society.

I wouldn't know enough about rl tribal clans to judge. But as the head of the clan Marethari let Merrill go and actually come and go as she pleased. If Marethari needs evoke some right to judge her to death or whatever then she should have just done that. I mean it's not like Merrill has been lying or decieving or anything. She made her case clear for everyone to see. If it was a crime to the tribe then why didn't she get killed or banned?

You always at least have the choice to die. If you don't want to submit to someone more powerful. You can always turn it as you want it is always Marethari's fault. Because she either didn't enforce the laws as she should or she didn't let go when she was supposed to. Merrill made her choice and stood with it. You can't possibly expect more of her.

Especially if you think that the Dalish themselves are sort of free spirits, homeless, wandering,etc. I mean what is Merrill doing worse than any of the city elves or those who choose to leave the clan to become city elves? That she is born a mage? Honestly, there should be more than one keeper apprentices because you never know if one dies. And you can't seriously think that it is a good idea to condemn a whole clan if their leader dies. Íf they have half a brain they will have replacement. And if they run out of mages they should declare a non mage leader. If their structure falls apart because one person dies or is lost in some way then they probably deserve to fall apart. I mean that's more than a critical weakness then.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[jlb524]

General User wrote...
I'm pretty sure Merrill was only talking about the way her Clan interacts amongst itself, not about any outsiders Dalish or shemlen.  Why?  Because it wasn't really relevant.  I don't think there's nothing inherently wrong with how the Dalish treat outsiders.

Yeah, Merrill was.  I believe Xili's comment was in reference to how the clan treats outsiders.

I have no issues with how they treat outsiders.

[Xilizhra]

jlb524 wrote...

General User wrote...
I'm pretty sure Merrill was only talking about the way her Clan interacts amongst itself, not about any outsiders Dalish or shemlen.  Why?  Because it wasn't really relevant.  I don't think there's nothing inherently wrong with how the Dalish treat outsiders.

Yeah, Merrill was.  I believe Xili's comment was in reference to how the clan treats outsiders.

I have no issues with how they treat outsiders.

I wouldn't have an issue with how they treat outsiders if they didn't extend it to Merrill.

[Forst1999]

@AlexXIV
I don't think that there are enough dalish mages that every clan can have a spare first present, but they actually replace her in act 3. It just takes some time.

Modifié par Forst1999, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:42 .