Xilizhra wrote...
I wouldn't have an issue with how they treat outsiders if they didn't extend it to Merrill.
Well I always had issues with how they treated me as an outsider. I understand why they are that way, that they want as little contanct with other races as possible, but it always bothered me. Because frankly I was always just comming to help them out. And I can't stand ungrateful people.Xilizhra wrote...
I wouldn't have an issue with how they treat outsiders if they didn't extend it to Merrill.jlb524 wrote...
General User wrote...
I'm pretty sure Merrill was only talking about the way her Clan interacts amongst itself, not about any outsiders Dalish or shemlen. Why? Because it wasn't really relevant. I don't think there's nothing inherently wrong with how the Dalish treat outsiders.
Yeah, Merrill was. I believe Xili's comment was in reference to how the clan treats outsiders.
I have no issues with how they treat outsiders.
True. I suppose I may be extending my wrath a tad far; I certainly don't enjoy killing them and don't do it myself, though that's also because I feel it should have a much bigger impact on Merrill than it actually does.jlb524 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
I wouldn't have an issue with how they treat outsiders if they didn't extend it to Merrill.
I'm reluctant to blame them because I don't know exactly what Marethari has been telling them about Merrill.
Apparently, Merrill is worse than a varterral to some of them because of what Marethari told them about her.
Xilizhra wrote...
True. I suppose I may be extending my wrath a tad far; I certainly don't enjoy killing them and don't do it myself, though that's also because I feel it should have a much bigger impact on Merrill than it actually does.
AlexXIV wrote...
Well I always had issues with how they treated me as an outsider. I understand why they are that way, that they want as little contanct with other races as possible, but it always bothered me. Because frankly I was always just comming to help them out. And I can't stand ungrateful people.
Modifié par jlb524, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:50 .
AlexXIV wrote...
I wouldn't know enough about rl tribal clans to judge. But as the head of the clan Marethari let Merrill go and actually come and go as she pleased. If Marethari needs evoke some right to judge her to death or whatever then she should have just done that. I mean it's not like Merrill has been lying or decieving or anything. She made her case clear for everyone to see. If it was a crime to the tribe then why didn't she get killed or banned?
Didn't say it did. But in this specific case, Merrill's place was to obey her Keeper and stay with her clan.Forst1999 wrote...
I disagree with you (and Sebastian) here. That it is the social norm to obey a certain person doesn't make it automaticly right.
Of course it is, Merrill was a Dalish First! It is only natural that her obsession was connected with elven history or lore. A saying very applicable in this case would be: "Sometimes the Devil speaks more strongly to our hopes than to our failings."Forst1999 wrote...
And that the Dalish actually let her go without any sanctions (permanent banishment, exclusion from dalish rights like vir sulevanan) means that she is free to go her own path. And it isn't just her own vision, but something inherently connected with her purpose.
Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:49 .
I agree.esper wrote...
They are not bad people for being hostile, but they do decide to try and kill Hawke and the three others. If you try to kill someone you cannot call it genocide or purge if that someone defends themself.
Bayz wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
I wouldn't know enough about rl tribal clans to judge. But as the head of the clan Marethari let Merrill go and actually come and go as she pleased. If Marethari needs evoke some right to judge her to death or whatever then she should have just done that. I mean it's not like Merrill has been lying or decieving or anything. She made her case clear for everyone to see. If it was a crime to the tribe then why didn't she get killed or banned?
First Marethari seems to have seen Merril as her own daughter (well she is supposed to do so with the whole clan, but you get my thinking)
Second it was not a crime to the tribe iself. As other posters had pointed out it is even "Merril's job" to study elven artefacts. The problem here is that knowing how narrow minded her tribe was, she disregarded their fears and preconceptions and went on her own without trying to empathise with her tribe's PoV and maybe try to change it more subtly.
She basically kept going with the light of reason trying to convince them with stuff they were not buying because of their own preconceptions and beliefs. She could have had the power to eventually change it in the future but she decided to just play her cards and throw in her clan's faces the same stuff she had been saying before and they had been rejecting before.
Bayz wrote...
Second it was not a crime to the tribe iself. As other posters had pointed out it is even "Merril's job" to study elven artefacts. The problem here is that knowing how narrow minded her tribe was, she disregarded their fears and preconceptions and went on her own without trying to empathise with her tribe's PoV and maybe try to change it more subtly.
Well, they'd start out by coming to the gate and politely asking a guard, saying they were on a mission to do so. I mean, it wouldn't be nice, necessarily, but wouldn't be totally out of context.I always ask myself, what would happen if four heavily-armed Dalish warriors marched into Kirkwall and asked to see the Viscount?
More applicable to Marethari...Of course it is, Merrill was a Dalish First! It is only natural that her obsession was connected with elven history or lore. A saying very applicable in this case would be: "Sometimes the Devil speaks more strongly to our hopes than to our failings."
jlb524 wrote...
Bayz wrote...
Second it was not a crime to the tribe iself. As other posters had pointed out it is even "Merril's job" to study elven artefacts. The problem here is that knowing how narrow minded her tribe was, she disregarded their fears and preconceptions and went on her own without trying to empathise with her tribe's PoV and maybe try to change it more subtly.
Why did the clan have those fears?
What was Marethari's obsession? What desperate thing drove her actions? It was the desire to keep Merrill safe.Xilizhra wrote...
More applicable to Marethari...Of course it is, Merrill was a Dalish First! It is only natural that her obsession was connected with elven history or lore. A saying very applicable in this case would be: "Sometimes the Devil speaks more strongly to our hopes than to our failings."
Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:01 .
At least as far as explaining someone's actions goes, cause believed is cause achieved.Xilizhra wrote...
They are violent without cause. They believe themselves to have it at one point, but it's utterly wrong and their doom wholly self-inflicted. If Hawke doesn't lie, of course.How does Merrill's Clanmates (whom she herself describes as "good people who watch out for one another) being largely hostile (though, it should be noted, not violent without cause) to anyone who isn't part of their clan make them bad people?
Just because you are warned of something does not mean you can't make your own decisions.jlb524 wrote...
Bayz wrote...
Second it was not a crime to the tribe iself. As other posters had pointed out it is even "Merril's job" to study elven artefacts. The problem here is that knowing how narrow minded her tribe was, she disregarded their fears and preconceptions and went on her own without trying to empathise with her tribe's PoV and maybe try to change it more subtly.
Why did the clan have those fears?
To prove Merrill wrong. I think that's how Audacity manipulated her.What was Marethari's obsession? What desperate thing drove her actions? It was the desire to keep Merrill safe.
It was the desire to save her clan, but also to restore a piece of history for all of the Dalish in general. Her clan was a major part of it, but not all of it.What, to your way of thinking, drove Merrill?
And they were unquestionably within the wrong regardless.At least as far as explaining someone's actions goes, cause believed is cause achieved.
Marethari had her responsibility to the clan though, not to Merrill. Merrill though made it clear she didn't even want to be keeper. What drove Marethari? Good question, since she risked the whole clan for her Merrill's sake. To me it looks that rather Marethari brought the bad fortune to the clan, not Merrill. If you come back with Merrill she even wonders why the clan had not moved on. Why indeed didn't it? Especially if in Ferelden elves now had it much better than anywhere else because of my elven Warden. So why did Marethari not leave? I don't understand how you justify Marethari's hesitation to get her clan to saftey by declaring that she viewed Merrill like a daughter. As a keeper she is not supposed to sacrifice the clan, not even for her daughter.General User wrote...
What was Marethari's obsession? What desperate thing drove her actions? It was the desire to keep Merrill safe.Xilizhra wrote...
More applicable to Marethari...Of course it is, Merrill was a Dalish First! It is only natural that her obsession was connected with elven history or lore. A saying very applicable in this case would be: "Sometimes the Devil speaks more strongly to our hopes than to our failings."
What, to your way of thinking, drove Merrill?
Bayz wrote...
Because they have been imprinted in most of the clanmembers mind's mainly by the Chantry. Remember many Dalish Elves come from city elven origin, they have descendants who are fully Dalish but it is not too strecht to think they may have passed most of those fears to them.
Bayz wrote...
Last but not least the propper effect they have seen, which is two clanmembers tainted, one forced to become a Warden and leaving the clan and the other "dissapeared". Yeah Merril said she could clean it but Merril is treated as a kiddo by the member of the clan who you would consider to be the most wise so she doesn't seem to know what she does.
How bizarre, Marethari only ever showed the desire to do what was best for Merrill (Clearly she believed she knew better than Merrill, which she may have, and if Audacity manipulated her at all it was through that).Xilizhra wrote...
To prove Merrill wrong. I think that's how Audacity manipulated her.What was Marethari's obsession? What desperate thing drove her actions? It was the desire to keep Merrill safe.
jlb524 wrote...
Bayz wrote...
Because they have been imprinted in most of the clanmembers mind's mainly by the Chantry. Remember many Dalish Elves come from city elven origin, they have descendants who are fully Dalish but it is not too strecht to think they may have passed most of those fears to them.
That's all wrong...just wrong. There was only one elf that came from the city.
jlb524 wrote...
Bayz wrote...
Last but not least the propper effect they have seen, which is two clanmembers tainted, one forced to become a Warden and leaving the clan and the other "dissapeared". Yeah Merril said she could clean it but Merril is treated as a kiddo by the member of the clan who you would consider to be the most wise so she doesn't seem to know what she does.
Those clanmembers weren't capable of studying the mirror and they never should have messed with it because they don't possess Merrill and Marethari's expertise in dealing with magic stuff.
jlb524 wrote...
If Marethari decided to study the
mirror and ensured the clan that she would be careful, I don't see why
they should still fear it.
I don't know... a lot of what she said seemed rather self-serving to me, and at the end, she's possessed, so who knows if what she's telling is the truth?Lord Aesir wrote...
How bizarre, Marethari only ever showed the desire to do what was best for Merrill (Clearly she believed she knew better than Merrill, which she may have, and if Audacity manipulated her at all it was through that).Xilizhra wrote...
To prove Merrill wrong. I think that's how Audacity manipulated her.What was Marethari's obsession? What desperate thing drove her actions? It was the desire to keep Merrill safe.
Mr.House wrote...
Just because you are warned of something does not mean you can't make your own decisions.jlb524 wrote...
Bayz wrote...
Second it was not a crime to the tribe iself. As other posters had pointed out it is even "Merril's job" to study elven artefacts. The problem here is that knowing how narrow minded her tribe was, she disregarded their fears and preconceptions and went on her own without trying to empathise with her tribe's PoV and maybe try to change it more subtly.
Why did the clan have those fears?
Well so we can conclude that everyone got what they deserved. They all made decisions and now have to deal with it. Marethari dead of her own fault, Merrill clanless of her own fault, clan lost their keeper and first of their own fault. If that's no closure then I don't know one.Bayz wrote...
Mr.House wrote...
Just because you are warned of something does not mean you can't make your own decisions.jlb524 wrote...
Bayz wrote...
Second it was not a crime to the tribe iself. As other posters had pointed out it is even "Merril's job" to study elven artefacts. The problem here is that knowing how narrow minded her tribe was, she disregarded their fears and preconceptions and went on her own without trying to empathise with her tribe's PoV and maybe try to change it more subtly.
Why did the clan have those fears?
Of course. But then go with the responsabilities of said decisions. If your actions provoke people to stab you in the face, it is your fault for provoking them, not the people who did it. If they go on and stab you without warning then it is a completely different animal.
Now we're getting somewhere! What did Merrill give up in order to make the attempt to restore that piece of history? And how else might she have gone about exactly that, both including and excluding attempting to restore the eluvian?Xilizhra wrote...
It was the desire to save her clan, but also to restore a piece of history for all of the Dalish in general. Her clan was a major part of it, but not all of it.What, to your way of thinking, drove Merrill?
Indeed and if Hawke doesn't intervene they pay for their error with their lives.Xilizhra wrote...
And they were unquestionably within the wrong regardless.
Wulfram wrote...
Merrill doesn't have the social self confidence to believe she could be a good keeper. That's one reason she's so obsessed by the mirror - to her, it's the only way she can really contribute to her people.
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