544 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Merrill doesn't have the social self confidence to believe she could be a good keeper. That's one reason she's so obsessed by the mirror - to her, it's the only way she can really contribute to her people.

Well.... that was in Act 1 in the very beginning of her journey into everything. Who knows how she feels in Act 3 about possibly being Keeper?

Does not matter much since the clan won't have her as a keeper anymore anyway.

[Forst1999]

It MIGHT really have been better, if Merrill had taken her time, kept being First and tried to restore the Eluvian when she became Keeper. But would it have been possible to sway the clan's opinion as Keeper later on, after Marethari shot the whole project down? The other's in the clan might think that restoring the Eluvian was wrong when Marethari was in charge, and still is wrong when Merrill is. Especially as i have trouble imagining Merrill as a Keeper that is as respected as Marethari. The clan respects her skills, and in the beginning they like her well enough personally, but Merrill probalby wouldn't have been a very good Keeper, by her own admission.
And if it would have been necessary to return to Sundermount to talk to the demon, would that even have been possible? I don't imagine the humans looking kindly on a Dalish clan coming back after a few years.
Would Marethari have let Merrill keep her piece of the Eluvian if she abandoned it?
Would it even have been responsibly to undertake this possibly risky project while being Keeper?
I see why Merrill decided to follow her path right now instead of waiting to become Keeper herself. And she genuinly thought that it was her duty to restore the mirror and that it was the best use of her abilities to help her people.
The start of the whole mess is on Merrill's head, but back then, the only bad consequence was that the clan lost the Keeper's apprentice. That the cost became higher later on, is on other peoples heads. Marethari made a mistake when she condemned Merrill in the eyes of the clan. This made Merrill's return impossible, and resulted in Pol's death (ok, his Andrastian upbringing was responsible for this too). Marethari made another mistake when she imprisoned the demon in her while not considering how the clan would react to this. And the biggest mistake was made by Fenarel and Ineria, when they refused to listen to Merrill and Hawke about Marethari's sacrifice, looking for vengeance.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I don't even know who to quote here, so I won't bother:

I love that people see nothing wrong with someone simply choosing to disobey a person they are SUPPOSED to listen to.

I wonder - if a 14 year old child decided they wanted to take their parents car for a ride, and was told no, would it also be okay if that child thought about it for a while a decided, "hey, my parents are wrong"?

You're equating a learned scholar of the arcane arts - who is building a Eluvian based on two thousand year old elven technology because she thinks it can fundamentally help the People, who have been on a downward spiral since the fall of the Dales and have been nomadic to avoid their elven mages getting killed by the templars - with a 14 year old child? The analogy simply doesn't add up, TJPags. Merrill is doing what she believes is right, based on actual study of the Eluvian, while Marethari condemns it based on her assumptions alone.

TJPags wrote...

It's really that simple - she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. She chose not to. That is wrong.

Not if the Keeper is wrong, which is what Merrill believed was the case. Merrill was doing her duty as a Dalish by restoring the past - which means she was being more faithful to the premise and goal of the Dalish than her clan's own Keeper was. Merrill addresses this when Hawke asks if risking her life is worth the price: "If it brings back this artifact of the elvhen, if it gives us even one piece of our history, it's worth any risk."

TJPags wrote...

It has nothing to do with what Maretheri did or didn't do. It has everything to do with what Merrill didn't do - listen.

But hey, I guess we all go through our "parents are idiots" phase. Luckily, for most people, it doesn't lead to the death of their entire family.

Marethari's own actions can lead to the death of the clan, because she poisoned them against Merrill to such an extreme that they commit suicide by Hawke unless Hawke coddles them.

Please don't bring me back into this.

Continuing speculating that Merrill is wonder girl (based on information not given in game) and that Maretheri is stupid (based on nothing more than you think she is) and that the rest of the Dalish have no say in the matter at all (because they disagree with Wonder Girl).

She was told to stop.  She didn't.  Chaos ensues.  Story should be over except everyone wants to gigglesquee over her.

So again - whatever.

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Because they have been imprinted in most of the clanmembers mind's mainly by the Chantry. Remember many Dalish Elves come from city elven origin, they have descendants who are fully Dalish but it is not too strecht to think they may have passed most of those fears to them.

That's all wrong...just wrong.  There was only one elf that came from the city.  

Knew I had to underline that

I have no idea what you are trying to say anymore.  Descendants passed on the fear?   Any fear of the mirror would have come from Marethari as she's responsible for the clan's guidance.  

Bayz wrote...
You keep thinking clanmembers = modern humans. Do not. It's proven wrong. Even with some modern Humans.

Again, what?  I'm not following what you are trying to say here.

I'm saying that the clanmembers that found the mirror were not mages and didn't study lore.  How are they as equipped to deal with the mirror as Marethari or Merrill?

Bayz wrote...
Which I agree to some extent. But Marethari doesn't seem to be completely fearing the mirror as she knows Merril is studying it and doesn't really seems to care too much about it. Also I do not think it would be an automatic "We can has teh mirrorz" scenario, but something maybe a bit more slow, to talk them into it and study it with time.

Marethari does seem to completely fear the mirror...she calls it 'evil'.  That's irrational behavior born of fear.

Yes, and if Marethari would have taken the time to study the mirror so she could make an informed decision on what to do with it and could have passed on this knowledge to the clan.  She would have been able to rationalize her decision better...whatever it may be.  If Marethari thought it was too dangerous to study further but Merrill wanted to continue, she would have been able to at least provide rational reasons for why she didn't want Merrill to study it, and then perhaps Merrill would have agreed.  "LOL, it's evil!" isn't rational.  On the otherhand, if she deemed it worthy of studying, she could have explained her rationalizatiosn to the clan and allayed their fears.

She never did this.  She didn't attempt to look at the thing once.

[TEWR]

Please don't bring me back into this

Technically you brought yourself back into this. Just sayin'....

=P

[jlb524]

Hehe, "gigglesquee".

[Bayz]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well so we can conclude that everyone got what they deserved. They all made decisions and now have to deal with it. Marethari dead of her own fault, Merrill clanless of her own fault, clan lost their keeper and first of their own fault. If that's no closure then I don't know one.

Wow...a person which actually understood my point in this community!

Anyway mate, forget about getting a closure, you are going to see in a couple of months a thread like this popping out again, and people talking the same stuff again and again and again. It is the wheel of life. It all boils down to the person's own experiencies and how they see the world, but some people will keep going on exactly the same, everytime in a more childish way.

This title now is "Marethari is more at fault on the genoc...cookie spreading than Merril is" in stuff that is just horrid IMO, try to use that as a title for any newspaper's article in real world conflicts and you'll see what I am saying.

When the result in the end was the anihilation of a clan, then there is not "Right" and there is not "X are more to blame than Y", it is just a tragedy that should have been avoided at all cost and both parties are horribly wrong morally and otherwise, no matter how people tries to twist it.

But yeah, both parties are to blame, both have their flaws and they fell into it for said flaws.

Heh, people's attempts to see one single culprit in cases like this amuses me and makes me lose my remmants on faith on our species.

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...

Heh, people's attempts to see one single culprit in cases like this amuses me and makes me lose my remmants on faith on our species.

This is another strawman.

I don't think anyone ever said Merrill is completely blameless.

I haven't, at least.

The OP is putting more blame on Marethari but not necessarily saying that Merrill is blameless.

You can put some blame on all of them...even Hawke and the companions that traveled to Sundermount.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

I have no idea what you are trying to say anymore.  Descendants passed on the fear?   Any fear of the mirror would have come from Marethari as she's responsible for the clan's guidance.  

Your father hates Apples, he seriously does because when he was a child people where he was raised in hated them and thought they only brought evil for the people. He will raise you in an appleless territory and pass on his views on apples. Some people will grow up and try some of said horrible foes, but most people will keep their father's view on apples their whole lives. Preconceptions are not something that comes or goes in one generation.

Clear now?

jlb524 wrote...
Again, what?  I'm not following what you are trying to say here.

I'm saying that the clanmembers that found the mirror were not mages and didn't study lore.  How are they as equipped to deal with the mirror as Marethari or Merrill?

Yes, but you are thinking the other clanmembers can just have their fears being talked out with reason. Modern humans tend to be more reasonable than the humans on, let's say the middle ages. And therefore most of us could be convinced by Merril's arguments. Her clanmembers can't.

Clear now?

jlb524 wrote...

Marethari does seem to completely fear the mirror...she calls it 'evil'.  That's irrational behavior born of fear.

Yes, and if Marethari would have taken the time to study the mirror so she could make an informed decision on what to do with it and could have passed on this knowledge to the clan.  She would have been able to rationalize her decision better...whatever it may be.  If Marethari thought it was too dangerous to study further but Merrill wanted to continue, she would have been able to at least provide rational reasons for why she didn't want Merrill to study it, and then perhaps Merrill would have agreed.  "LOL, it's evil!" isn't rational.  On the otherhand, if she deemed it worthy of studying, she could have explained her rationalizatiosn to the clan and allayed their fears.

She never did this.  She didn't attempt to look at the thing once.

Again you are seeing the thing on a modern human point of view. Do not, you are assuming she has to be rational. She has not. That doesn't mean she is guilty of taking her clan to destruction as her actions actually did not bring it until Merril came back the last time.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Heh, people's attempts to see one single culprit in cases like this amuses me and makes me lose my remmants on faith on our species.

This is another strawman.

I don't think anyone ever said Merrill is completely blameless.

I haven't, at least.

The OP is putting more blame on Marethari but not necessarily saying that Merrill is blameless.

You can put some blame on all of them...even Hawke and the companions that traveled to Sundermount.

Sure, counting blame in a countable manner is not a strawman at all, no sir nope.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

Please don't bring me back into this.

Continuing speculating that Merrill is wonder girl (based on information not given in game) and that Maretheri is stupid (based on nothing more than you think she is) and that the rest of the Dalish have no say in the matter at all (because they disagree with Wonder Girl).

She was told to stop.  She didn't.  Chaos ensues.  Story should be over except everyone wants to gigglesquee over her.

So again - whatever.

I shouldn't get personal but are you by any chance in the military, raised in a military family? Because even in the military you can refuse a command if you think it is unlawful. So I wouldn't know one example in which an adult would not have the option to not follow an order. What you say may be right for kids. And even then it's bad style to raise kids that way. I mean they need to learn to trust their own judgement more than other people's don't you think?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:48 .

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...
Your father hates Apples, he seriously does because when he was a child people where he was raised in hated them and thought they only brought evil for the people. He will raise you in an appleless territory and pass on his views on apples. Some people will grow up and try some of said horrible foes, but most people will keep their father's view on apples their whole lives. Preconceptions are not something that comes or goes in one generation.

Yes, I know that.  But you cannot prove that the elves have passed on fear of mirrors or certain types of magic.   Which is why the comment made no sense in context.

Bayz wrote...
Yes, but you are thinking the other clanmembers can just have their fears being talked out with reason. Modern humans tend to be more reasonable than the humans on, let's say the middle ages. And therefore most of us could be convinced by Merril's arguments. Her clanmembers can't.

Clear now?

So, they're not rational enough to know that a mage (their Keeper) who studies elven lore would be better suited to study an ancient elven artifact than a hunter in the clan?

I understand that it won't be super easy to convince them since they don't know anything about magic, but they do trust their Keeper and I feel would eventually come around if she gave reasonable arguments.  

Bayz wrote...
Again you are seeing the thing on a modern human point of view. Do not, you are assuming she has to be rational. She has not. That doesn't mean she is guilty of taking her clan to destruction as her actions actually did not bring it until Merril came back the last time.

So, what Marethari did is okay because she gets a free pass as Dalish elves in the DA verse don't have to act rationally?

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

Yes, I know that.  But you cannot prove that the elves have passed on fear of mirrors or certain types of magic.   Which is why the comment made no sense in context.

Prove it otherwise:mellow:

jlb524 wrote...
So, they're not rational enough to know that a mage (their Keeper) who studies elven lore would be better suited to study an ancient elven artifact than a hunter in the clan?

I understand that it won't be super easy to convince them since they don't know anything about magic, but they do trust their Keeper and I feel would eventually come around if she gave reasonable arguments.

Bayz wrote...
Again you are seeing the thing on a modern human point of view. Do not, you are assuming she has to be rational. She has not. That doesn't mean she is guilty of taking her clan to destruction as her actions actually did not bring it until Merril came back the last time.

So, what Marethari did is okay because she gets a free pass as Dalish elves in the DA verse don't have to act rationally?

Nope, People in general has not to be rational. It is not a requisite. Not in the DA verse, in general.

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...
Prove it otherwise:mellow:

It's your claim and your burden of proof.

Bayz wrote...
Nope, People in general has not to be rational. It is not a requisite. Not in the DA verse, in general.

Should they act rationally?

Well then, no one is rational so no one is to blame!

Modifié par jlb524, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:08 .

[AlexXIV]

jlb524 wrote...

Bayz wrote...
Prove it otherwise:mellow:

It's your claim and your burden of proof.

Bayz wrote...
Nope, People in general has not to be rational. It is not a requisite. Not in the DA verse, in general.

Should they act rationally?

Well then, no one is rational so no one is to blame!

My Hawke tried hard to be rational, but for some reason it didn't work. I wonder if the lyrium idol was not much stronger than we assume and drove more than just Bartrand and Meredith crazy. Probably the crazy spread over all of Kirkwall.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

It's your claim and your burden of proof.

You've got it in the clanmembers reaction on Merril's studies. That is unless you assume they are just drones and will follow Marethari to whatever she does, says or commands without having a cultural background giving them preconceptions.

jlb524 wrote...
Should they act rationally?

Well then, no one is rational so no one is to blame!

How does not acting rational frees you from responsability?

[DrFumb1ezX]

AlexXIV wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Bayz wrote...
Prove it otherwise:mellow:

It's your claim and your burden of proof.

Bayz wrote...
Nope, People in general has not to be rational. It is not a requisite. Not in the DA verse, in general.

Should they act rationally?

Well then, no one is rational so no one is to blame!

My Hawke tried hard to be rational, but for some reason it didn't work. I wonder if the lyrium idol was not much stronger than we assume and drove more than just Bartrand and Meredith crazy. Probably the crazy spread over all of Kirkwall.

It's actually Cory, if Legacy is to be believed. Having a near Old God living right next to you might be slightly unstable.

[Bayz]

That or the fact the barrier separating the fade from reality is thinner

[DrFumb1ezX]

That too. I was always wondering how everyone and their mother in Kirkwall knew blood magic...

[Raging Nug]

I dunno. I think if Corypheus was to blame then **** would have gone down a lot sooner.

I blame the pigeons. You never see them, but they're always around for Shale to comment on them.

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...
You've got it in the clanmembers reaction on Merril's studies.

And Marethari states 'in game' that they think 'X' about it because she told them 'X' about it.  Everything you've said is just speculation that 'could' be true but isn't necessarily.

Bayz wrote...

How does not acting rational frees you from responsability?

It doesn't.  Which is why I think a lot of responsibility falls on Marethari.

You said she 'shouldn't act rationally' and I shouldn't expect her to...which seems as if you want to give them a free pass.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Please don't bring me back into this.

Continuing speculating that Merrill is wonder girl (based on information not given in game) and that Maretheri is stupid (based on nothing more than you think she is) and that the rest of the Dalish have no say in the matter at all (because they disagree with Wonder Girl).

She was told to stop.  She didn't.  Chaos ensues.  Story should be over except everyone wants to gigglesquee over her.

So again - whatever.

I shouldn't get personal but are you by any chance in the military, raised in a military family? Because even in the military you can refuse a command if you think it is unlawful. So I wouldn't know one example in which an adult would not have the option to not follow an order. What you say may be right for kids. And even then it's bad style to raise kids that way. I mean they need to learn to trust their own judgement more than other people's don't you think?

My dad was in the service.  And maybe that has something to do with it.

I think it's more the fact that I have a job, have had several over the years.  I don't always think my bosses are right.  But by taking the job, I agree to accept their final decisions.  I can't imagine many jobs where you could blatantly disobey the boss, even if you turn out right, and get away with it.  And here, I don't see that Merrill was ever proven right - she does nothing with the mirror, after all, and the end result is, I think most people would agree, bad.

I've been part of a family, as I mentioned before.  I've rented apartments.  I've been where "stupid" decisions or rules keep me from doing what I think is right.  And I've never once disobeyed one of those decisions or rules without something bad happening, either as a direct result of my disobedience, or simply because I broke the rule, even if the result of that action was somehow good.

Merrill, as part of the clan, was supposed to defer to Maretheri, not only the Keeper, but her mentor.  That's how I see it.  She didn't do that.  If she had, no other decision needed to be made - not Maretheri dealing with the Demon, not the clan attacking Hawke, not even Merrill's exile.  All she had to do was listen - she could have waited until she was Keeper herself, could have kept trying to convince Maretheri, could have persuaded Maretheri to assist her.

Instead, in a childish "I know better" fit, she insisted on doing what she wanted, rather than follow the rule she was bound to follow.  End result - Merrill is exiled, Maretheri dead, clan Keeperless or even dead themselves.  AND THE MIRROR DID NOTHING to help the Dalish - there was no result that could remotely be called positive.

To further answer your questions:  No, kids should NOT trust their own judgment over that of others.  They're kids, not adults.  And even as an adult, I know many people who still ask their parents advice - someone always has more experience than you.  Sure, sometimes you DO know better, sometimes you ARE right.  But as a kid?  No, you don't know better than your parents.

As for disobeying unlawful orders - how does that track?  There's nothing unlawful about Maretheri saying don't screw with the mirror.  If she'd told Merrill to go slaughter a peasant family, sure, I'd agree.  But this situation doesn't remotely rise to that level.

Should Merrill have been allowed to investigate the mirror?  Sure, maybe.  I don't know that - nor do I care.

I know she was told not to.  I know she refused to listen.  And I know that, in the end, she got nothing out of it.

How that remotely makes her right, I have no idea.

[Xilizhra]

How that remotely makes her right, I have no idea.

Because Marethari's interference led to the negative results. If your proof for saying that disobedience leads to bad things is the disobeyed ones trying to ruin the positive effects that the disobedience may bring about... it really doesn't count.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

How that remotely makes her right, I have no idea.

Because Marethari's interference led to the negative results. If your proof for saying that disobedience leads to bad things is the disobeyed ones trying to ruin the positive effects that the disobedience may bring about... it really doesn't count.

What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[Xilizhra]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How that remotely makes her right, I have no idea.

Because Marethari's interference led to the negative results. If your proof for saying that disobedience leads to bad things is the disobeyed ones trying to ruin the positive effects that the disobedience may bring about... it really doesn't count.

What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

If she listens, Audacity totally shifts its focus to Marethari, bringing her more fully under its sway, possibly possessing her at such a time that no one will ever know. Even if it doesn't, a Keeper in thrall to a demon is probably good for no one, and the clan would likely wind up doomed in some way. And beyond that, Merrill might just be the only one who could save Hawke's life at some point by going with her, and if she doesn't, things could start going badly wrong from there.