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[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How that remotely makes her right, I have no idea.

Because Marethari's interference led to the negative results. If your proof for saying that disobedience leads to bad things is the disobeyed ones trying to ruin the positive effects that the disobedience may bring about... it really doesn't count.

What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

If she listens, Audacity totally shifts its focus to Marethari, bringing her more fully under its sway, possibly possessing her at such a time that no one will ever know. Even if it doesn't, a Keeper in thrall to a demon is probably good for no one, and the clan would likely wind up doomed in some way. And beyond that, Merrill might just be the only one who could save Hawke's life at some point by going with her, and if she doesn't, things could start going badly wrong from there.

So much speculation here, I don't know where to begin.

Let's settle on this - didn't the game tell us that the clan didn't go to those caves?  Except Merrill?  So how would the demon (I don't know their names, it's Audacity?  Okay then) have corrupted anyone?

[Xilizhra]

So much speculation here, I don't know where to begin.

Everything is. We know very little about the situation. But your answer is hardly conclusive.

Let's settle on this - didn't the game tell us that the clan didn't go to those caves? Except Merrill? So how would the demon (I don't know their names, it's Audacity? Okay then) have corrupted anyone?

Merrill and Marethari. Marethari clearly went there before Hawke, otherwise Audacity wouldn't have been gone from Pride's End. And the whole mountain is cursed; you see corpses, weird Dalish shadow ghosts, and shades popping up everywhere. I think a lot of this is from Audacity's influence. But I can totally buy Marethari coming up there once in a while as well.

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

So much speculation here, I don't know where to begin.

Everything is. We know very little about the situation. But your answer is hardly conclusive.

No, see, I'm not speculating.  I'm dealing with what we know.

Maretheri is the Keeper.  She is the head of the clan.  She is Merrill's mentor.  These are facts.

Maretheri told Merrill to stop playing with the mirror.  Merrill continued.  Also facts.

Xilizhra wrote...

Let's settle on this - didn't the game tell us that the clan didn't go to those caves? Except Merrill? So how would the demon (I don't know their names, it's Audacity? Okay then) have corrupted anyone?

Merrill and Marethari. Marethari clearly went there before Hawke, otherwise Audacity wouldn't have been gone from Pride's End. And the whole mountain is cursed; you see corpses, weird Dalish shadow ghosts, and shades popping up everywhere. I think a lot of this is from Audacity's influence. But I can totally buy Marethari coming up there once in a while as well.

Either Maretheri or Merrill - or maybe one of the other elves - specifically states that they don't go there anymore, because they consider it cursed.  We have no evidence that Maretheri went there any time other than when she was possessed.  Sure, maybe she went up there a lot.  Maybe Meredith, Orsino, Elthinna and the Arishok had a weekly poker game.  We don't see or hear anything about either.

None of this changes the facts - Maretheri said no, Merrill kept doing it.  Merrill is wrong.

[Xilizhra]

No, see, I'm not speculating. I'm dealing with what we know.

Maretheri is the Keeper. She is the head of the clan. She is Merrill's mentor. These are facts.

Maretheri told Merrill to stop playing with the mirror. Merrill continued. Also facts.

Which have no significance of their own.

None of this changes the facts - Maretheri said no, Merrill kept doing it. Merrill is wrong.

In your interpretation. I've given a way in which it could be seen otherwise. You will continue to refuse to see it. However, your shortsighted attempts at reason will not have any hold over me.

[jlb524]

TJPags wrote...
What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Merrill was supposed to listen to the Keeper and didn't...and yes, she's not being a very good First.  So, yes, some of the blame and responsibility for the end outcome rests on her shoulders.

Some people (including myself) think Merrill is justified for disobeying, especially considering that Marethari didn't give her an intelligent reason for why she shouldn't study the mirror.  Thus, Merrill decided to leave the clan and Marethari so she could pursue the project on her own.   They had an academic disagreement, basically.  It reminds me of a student disagreeing with their professor in graduate studies and deciding that it would be best to leave the school and find another professor to work with.

Merrill left the clan...left...completely went her separate way...and expected Marethari and the clan to leave shortly after, leaving her alone in Kirkwall.  She had no intentions of invoving the clan in the matter.   She wanted to do it alone and figured the clan would be gone.

But Marethari kept them there.  She stayed to interfere/watch/whatever and was thus responsible for involving the clan in her 'academic' disagreement with Merrill.  She could have moved the clan to a safer spot or traveled back to Ferelden like she was supposed to do.  She choose to remain with her clan and put them at risk the entire time.  Not just from whatever demons lurked on Sundermount but from humans/Templars/etc.  This is why I think Marethari is mainly responsible for what happened to the clan.

Basically, because Marethari was the Keeper and had more responsibility, the shirking of her duties "effed stuff up" worse than Merrill's shirking.

[TJPags]

jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Merrill was supposed to listen to the Keeper and didn't...and yes, she's not being a very good First.  So, yes, some of the blame and responsibility for the end outcome rests on her shoulders.

Some people (including myself) think Merrill is justified for disobeying, especially considering that Marethari didn't give her an intelligent reason for why she shouldn't study the mirror.  Thus, Merrill decided to leave the clan and Marethari so she could pursue the project on her own.   They had an academic disagreement, basically.  It reminds me of a student disagreeing with their professor in graduate studies and deciding that it would be best to leave the school and find another professor to work with.

Merrill left the clan...left...completely went her separate way...and expected Marethari and the clan to leave shortly after, leaving her alone in Kirkwall.  She had no intentions of invoving the clan in the matter.   She wanted to do it alone and figured the clan would be gone.

But Marethari kept them there.  She stayed to interfere/watch/whatever and was thus responsible for involving the clan in her 'academic' disagreement with Merrill.  She could have moved the clan to a safer spot or traveled back to Ferelden like she was supposed to do.  She choose to remain with her clan and put them at risk the entire time.  Not just from whatever demons lurked on Sundermount but from humans/Templars/etc.  This is why I think Marethari is mainly responsible for what happened to the clan.

Basically, because Marethari was the Keeper and had more responsibility, the shirking of her duties "effed stuff up" worse than Merrill's shirking.

See, I can understand this.  I disagree with it, but I can understand it.  It's based on facts, and that I can respect.

Sure, Maretheri screwed up - I don't dispute that.  However, I blame Merrill chiefly because without her disobedience, Maretheri is never in the position to do what she did.

But I can see your point.

[Kelnuin]

The only way to stop Merril, with her mind so set, probably would be to kill her. That was the very fate that Maretheri was trying to stop Merril, to prevent the demon from killing Merril.

What happens with Tamerin affected Merril greatly, so much that she sees him out of the corner of her eye. There is some sort of emotional attachment there. It is like a close family member or spouse having to find why their precious family member was murdered. This, in my opinion, is what starts Merril's dedication and the other reasons she has are fuel for that fire.

[TEWR]

Now that I actually have enough time today to devote myself to this discussion....

TJPags wrote...

What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because Merrill was never obligated to follow the Keeper's words on every thing. Certainly she should take them into consideration, but the Dalish aren't forced into being lemmings. They can think for their own.

Marethari fears the taint. Sure that's a fear that's well-founded because everyone should be afraid of the taint on some level, but the taint and the Eluvian are not the same thing. They are joined but they can be separated. And that's what Merrill wanted to do. She wanted to see at first if there was a way that the taint could be cleansed from the Eluvian shard since it's a part of ancient Elven technology.

Marethari should've backed her up on that to the point where it could be determined if the shard was indeed safe or not anymore. We know the shard -- and by extension the mirror Merrill made -- was cleansed and is no longer dangerous. We know this because Merrill goes 10 years without being tainted, Anders doesn't say anything about the taint being in the Eluvian or Merrill when Duncan could sense both, and when other Elves were tainted by other shards that weren't part of a functioning mirror anymore.

Now, had the shard been tainted still I could understand Marethari wanting nothing more to do with it. But Merrill cleansed it and proved the Keeper wrong.

Tell me, if you wanted to go driving down Killer's Lane because the library in the next town over had a book you needed for school -- and say your sibling was killed on Killer's Lane in a car accident -- and your parents said "No" because of what happened in the past when you're a full-grown adult yourself, would you really not drive down Killer's Lane?

We learn from the past and use it to make the future safer for the rest of us. Ignoring it because of one bad incident -- however heart-wrenching it may have been -- is not how one should live. Letting fear dominate the soul is a dangerous road.

Disobedience isn't always an inherently bad thing. Certainly at first it may appear to be bad -- and whether it is bad in a scenario is subjective -- but it can lead somewhere good sometimes. Merrill is the same age as Mahariel, so any decisions she makes are her own to make. She isn't a child no matter what one may think. An inexperienced adult surely, but that's something else. She is allowed to disagree with the Keeper and choose to not obey her if she wishes.

Saying "She should've listened because the Keeper outright told her 'No'" is foolish imo.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:21 .

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Merrill was supposed to listen to the Keeper and didn't...and yes, she's not being a very good First.  So, yes, some of the blame and responsibility for the end outcome rests on her shoulders.

Some people (including myself) think Merrill is justified for disobeying, especially considering that Marethari didn't give her an intelligent reason for why she shouldn't study the mirror.  Thus, Merrill decided to leave the clan and Marethari so she could pursue the project on her own.   They had an academic disagreement, basically.  It reminds me of a student disagreeing with their professor in graduate studies and deciding that it would be best to leave the school and find another professor to work with.

Merrill left the clan...left...completely went her separate way...and expected Marethari and the clan to leave shortly after, leaving her alone in Kirkwall.  She had no intentions of invoving the clan in the matter.   She wanted to do it alone and figured the clan would be gone.

But Marethari kept them there.  She stayed to interfere/watch/whatever and was thus responsible for involving the clan in her 'academic' disagreement with Merrill.  She could have moved the clan to a safer spot or traveled back to Ferelden like she was supposed to do.  She choose to remain with her clan and put them at risk the entire time.  Not just from whatever demons lurked on Sundermount but from humans/Templars/etc.  This is why I think Marethari is mainly responsible for what happened to the clan.

Basically, because Marethari was the Keeper and had more responsibility, the shirking of her duties "effed stuff up" worse than Merrill's shirking.

I agree with this.

[TEWR]

Maybe Meredith, Orsino, Elthina, and the Arishok had a weekly poker game.

New idea for my fanfic!

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...


See, I can understand this.  I disagree with it, but I can understand it.  It's based on facts, and that I can respect.

Sure, Maretheri screwed up - I don't dispute that.  However, I blame Merrill chiefly because without her disobedience, Maretheri is never in the position to do what she did.

But I can see your point.

Well your logic is simple. But life isn't. I mean you can just say you are supposed to obey your superior, but you can for example quit your job for various reasons. And that's basically what Merrill wanted. It's her life and her business tbh because nobody, not Marethari, not Hawke or anyone has to tell anyone how to live their lifes. Of course Merrill does have to bear the consequences of her actions, but that's another matter. Main point is, she doesn't want to be keeper or keeper's first. And nobody can force her. I mean you can force someone to clean up the floor or a table. But forcing someone to lead a tribe? There is way too much responsibility in this task to force people into in who don't even want to do it. I don't see how this could go well in the long run.

Also I could just say, if Marethari would have left Merrill and the demon alone then nothing would have happend either. I don't see how exactly Merrill forced Marethari to do anything. She was just acting irresponsible (the keeper that is). Merrill thought the keeper would go away after Merrill left and would take the clan with her. And tbh it would have been Marethari's duty to do so.

[TEWR]

AlexXIV wrote...


Well your logic is simple. But life isn't. I mean you can just say you are supposed to obey your superior, but you can for example quit your job for various reasons. And that's basically what Merrill wanted. It's her life and her business tbh because nobody, not Marethari, not Hawke or anyone has to tell anyone how to live their lifes. Of course Merrill does have to bear the consequences of her actions, but that's another matter. Main point is, she doesn't want to be keeper or keeper's first. And nobody can force her. I mean you can force someone to clean up the floor or a table. But forcing someone to lead a tribe? There is way too much responsibility in this task to force people into in who don't even want to do it. I don't see how this could go well in the long run.

Also I could just say, if Marethari would have left Merrill and the demon alone then nothing would have happend either. I don't see how exactly Merrill forced Marethari to do anything. She was just acting irresponsible (the keeper that is). Merrill thought the keeper would go away after Merrill left and would take the clan with her. And tbh it would have been Marethari's duty to do so.

The bolded is actually a great way to put it. At my old job at BJ's Warehouse, I was supposed to put up with all of these write-ups -- which were reprimands you had to sign -- for forgetting to scan an item in a person's cart. It was a box of energy bars, but the people had a 2 for 1 coupon which I always scanned. Still, I got reprimanded for it.

But that wasn't the case. No one came back and re-bought it as the case may be and no one said anything to me about missing an item. After the first time it happened which made me say "This never once happened", it happened again. Same item and everything. Except I had checked the person's receipt to make sure it was scanned. I even circled it! At that point, I began to suspect BJ's was making write-ups against me so they could fire me. I began contesting these write-ups because I always made sure the information was on the receipt, circling it and everything. I even showed the damn coupon to my superiors.

It kept happening. And it kept pissing me off. So I quit.

Frankly, I don't think I had enough evidence if any to make a case out of it. I had been planning on quitting anyway since something better came along.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[Addai]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well why should Merrill's storyline have less weaknesses than other storylines in DA2. Things don't make sense, they just happen and you are supposed to act as if it's all logical and normal. That's what makes is even harder to judge companions and their actions since they at some point just act to support the plot.

Yes.  It's vexing.

[mcsupersport]

Merrill tells(I believe on the first trip up with her, before she is a companion) you the first time she went up Sundermount was with Marethari. So they had gone once together before the end of the game.
Marethari's action to disregard the safety of the Clan as a whole over one student who already left is vast dereliction of duty.
The only person who says the mirror was to be a gateway for the Demon was Marethari AFTER she was an abomination.

My question always has to be what made Marethari go so out of character to totally neglect the clan, by staying 6 years+ in one location, next to a demon infested mountain and a human city? I have to wonder how much influence the demon had on her from a very early stage to completely warp her values and responsibilities to the clan.
Once Merrill left the clan, she was no longer Marethari's responsibility and thus if Marethari was truly looking out for the clan she would have left, and should have. Merrill made a decision in life to leave the clan to further her work, and Marethari made a decision to neglect her clan to try and "save" Merrill from her decisions. Whose actions were worse, Merrill for leaving the clan behind and going on with her life, or Marethari's abandoning the responsibilities to the whole clan in favor of one member who LEFT THE CLAN???

[Joy Divison]

TJPags wrote...

What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because it's problematic logic.

Merrill is not "supposed" to listen.  When an apprentice/assistant/student/subaltern has a fundamental disagreement with their elder/superior/boss it is standard practice to resign/transfer from your position rather than carry out an order or an assignment that you are unwilling to do.  It is for the benefit in both parties.  This is true in politics, the military, academia, the business world, etc., virtually any sector which has a chain of command or authority.

Also I can't think of one instance where historians have come to the conclusion that tragic event X happened because someone was supposed to listen and did not.  It's weak, overly reductionist, and myopic.

[Sharn01]

TJPags wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
What does what Maretheri did have anything to do with the fact that Merrill disobeyed her, which is why I think she was wrong?

That's my point here - Merrill was supposed to listen, she didn't.  If she listens, nothing else happens.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Merrill was supposed to listen to the Keeper and didn't...and yes, she's not being a very good First.  So, yes, some of the blame and responsibility for the end outcome rests on her shoulders.

Some people (including myself) think Merrill is justified for disobeying, especially considering that Marethari didn't give her an intelligent reason for why she shouldn't study the mirror.  Thus, Merrill decided to leave the clan and Marethari so she could pursue the project on her own.   They had an academic disagreement, basically.  It reminds me of a student disagreeing with their professor in graduate studies and deciding that it would be best to leave the school and find another professor to work with.

Merrill left the clan...left...completely went her separate way...and expected Marethari and the clan to leave shortly after, leaving her alone in Kirkwall.  She had no intentions of invoving the clan in the matter.   She wanted to do it alone and figured the clan would be gone.

But Marethari kept them there.  She stayed to interfere/watch/whatever and was thus responsible for involving the clan in her 'academic' disagreement with Merrill.  She could have moved the clan to a safer spot or traveled back to Ferelden like she was supposed to do.  She choose to remain with her clan and put them at risk the entire time.  Not just from whatever demons lurked on Sundermount but from humans/Templars/etc.  This is why I think Marethari is mainly responsible for what happened to the clan.

Basically, because Marethari was the Keeper and had more responsibility, the shirking of her duties "effed stuff up" worse than Merrill's shirking.

See, I can understand this.  I disagree with it, but I can understand it.  It's based on facts, and that I can respect.

Sure, Maretheri screwed up - I don't dispute that.  However, I blame Merrill chiefly because without her disobedience, Maretheri is never in the position to do what she did.

But I can see your point.

Your logic is just to simplistic, you are saying a person in a leadership role can never be disobeyed but that is not true.  If Maretheri told Merrill to slit her own throat with a knife would she then be justified in disobeying the order?  At what point is an order worth disobeying, and what should be done when you disobey it?  Seems like Merrill did what she was suppose to do, she wished to disobey the keeper so she left the clan, the clan stayed behind when it shouldnt have, so everything other then the initial decision to leave the clan is Maretheri's fault.

[dragonflight288]

This has progressed a long way from where I last checked.

*reads back a few pages*....this is why I use in-game evidence to support my theories. To quote Sherlock Holmes- "It is unwise to form theories before gathering facts otherwise we shift the facts to fit our theories rather than our theories to fit the facts." Or something like that.

For those just reading this, go to page 11. I have a very long analysis of the whole situation of the Dalish and Merethari vs Merrill there. My in-game pieces of evidence and conclusions drawn from them.

For those who don't want to do that, I'll just paraphrase.

Merethari, as Keeper of the Dalish, her main responsibility is the safety of her clan and the gathering of ancient elven knowledge. It is her job description to gather the lost lore and remember it, passing it onto a first and sharing what knowledge she finds with other clans when they meet once every ten years.

(need I also add that the Dalish elves have trade their children during this time to avoid inbreeding...they're a dying culture.)

Merethari is avoiding the eluvian like the plague (which the taint technically is) because she fears it after losing two hunters to it. She won't study the lore or the eluvians, and considers the entire mirror best left forgotten.

Right at that point, she is blatantly ignoring her duties as a Keeper.

Agree or disagree with her reasons as you will, she is still ignoring her duties.

Merrill, having been trained as First and to be the eventual Keeper, and according to Dalish storytellers in more than one clan, the Dalish elves exist to gather the lost knowledge and remember so that they may one day rebuild; Merrill feels that the best course of action is to cleanse the eluvian shard of the taint. Once it is safe, she proceeds to study it and attempts to rebuild a large piece of their history.

Now I turn my attention to Witch Hunt. We know that Tevinter at it's height only managed fancy telephones with the eluvians, but Morrigan made a portal out of it. Who knows what Merrill would have gotten out of hers.

But even if all she got was a communication device; think of how much better it would be for the Dalish clans. They could communicate with each other far faster than anyone else in Thedas. They could share knowledge or hold council together over controversial decisions. Heck, Merethari could even have gotten hold of halla from another clan in the time between Act 1 and 2 if the Dalish had them and could communicate.

Even with its most limited function, the Dalish people benefit.

Now for DA2. The only evidence we receive that the eluvian was a trap was when Merethari was already possessed. Up to that point, Merethari never gives Hawke or Merrill a good logical reason that the mirror is dangerous beyond Tamlen and potential-Warden. And that problem is already solved.

Ultimately, the choice for the player is, do you see potential benefit of the eluvian worth Merrill isolating herself from her clan (some were honestly sad to see her leave in Act 1) worth it if it helps all elves in the long run, or do you see it as a self-destructive path made worse by pride and intolerance of everyone involved?

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

The Dalish are a people, a culture, not an organization. They do not have a "mission" per-say, only cultural values and imperatives.

Merrill did have a mission, an obsession, and she forsook her people to pursue it.

No, Merrill left her clan to help the People. Merrill had an opinion that differed from that of Keeper Marethari. I don't see how you think restoring the Eluvian goes against the Dalish or their culture, because the entire point behind the Dalish is restoring the past of the elvhenan for the elves living in the present.

General User wrote...

They became Dalish because they lost a war (a couple of them actually), their only choices were to become Dalish Wanderers or accept human overlordship as city elves. 

The Dalish became nomadic after the fall of the Dales, which was the Exalted March led by the Chantry and Orlais against the nation of the Dales.
 

General User wrote...

When Dalish seek to find and restore ancient elven artifacts and lore they do not/should not do so at the expense of the now, of the people in the now or their obligations in the now.  That's near the heart of where Merrill went wrong; she was so focused on the past and her vision of the future, that she lost sight of the present.

No, Merrill was focused on helping her people in the present, by restoring important technology from their past that might be able to benefit them.

General User wrote...

The present state of that Clan is that they are wounded by The Blight, bereft of their halla, and stranded in the Vinmarks. 
That being the case, do you really believe Merrill is better serving her people (specifically her clan) by willfully disobeying her Keeper, choosing exile, and consorting with demons to try and restore an eluvian, than she would be by guiding, ministering to, aiding with magic, and yes remembering for her Clan the lore they do have?  Really?

Since the technology could benefit elves across the continent if Merrill is correct... the answer should be obvious. What has the the Sabrae clan been doing to help the People, besides wandering nomadically and doing nothing about the plight of the People?

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. Given that they hate everything she tries to do, I doubt she could do much to help them. Though even she would be better than the prideful deceptive demon summoner-turned-abomination that they had before...

We'll never know how much Merrill could have done to help her Clan, because she never tried.  Not the real them anyway, she imagined a bright future for them (even one without her in it) through her eluvian studies.  But that wasn't the real Dalish, that wasn't her real Clan, that was her obsession.

Merrill did try - which is why she pursued the Eluvian, basically doing what the Dalish are supposed to do. Your entire argument comes down to Merrill having a disagreement with one, single woman, who has the clan wrapped around her finger and who have no real opinion besides "I follow Marethari." Having a disagreement with one single person doesn't constitute Merrill abandoning her people simply because you, personally, disagree with her choice.

General User wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I don't see how Merrill abandoning the Eluvian would solve the clan's problems. Yes, she could have helped Marethari caring for the clan. But not in a great extent. I wouldn't have brought the Halla back, and most other imediate needs Marethari seemed to handle quite well. That Merrill wasn't allowed to do both, taking care of  the clan and restoring history, was Marethari's decision.

If it was Marethari's decision, should not Merrill have deferred to her judgement? 

It's not about solving the clan's problems, it's about helping to solve them and knowing one's place in doing so.

Merrill pursued ancient elven technology she believed might be able to help her people. The Dalish, who have had no homeland since the fall of the Dales. Who have brethern living in ghettos or in slavery. All of the elves across Thedas. Revolutionary technology. I don't see why she should abandon her goal when it can potentially help so many people (if Merrill is correct).

[Forst1999]

TJPags wrote...

Maretheri is the Keeper.  She is the head of the clan.  She is Merrill's mentor.  These are facts.

Maretheri told Merrill to stop playing with the mirror.  Merrill continued.  Also facts.
[...]
None of this changes the facts - Maretheri said no, Merrill kept doing it.  Merrill is wrong.

Was Merrill supposed to listen to Marethari? You can say yes, and that she could have avoided the whole mess.
Was Marethari supposed to restore the Eluvian in the first place? As a Keeper, i would say yes, as Dragonflight288 pointed out. If she had just done what she was supposed to, she could also have avoided everything.
Here we a have conflict between a Keeper's/First's role in the tribe and their role for the whole Dalish.  When torn between two purposes of your role, you have to choose. On the base of the information that Merrill had, her choice seems reasonable to me. When Marethari knew all along that the Eluvian could be a means of escape for the demon and had told Merrill so, this choice would probably have been different. But with the arguments she gave to Merrill, basicly just expecting her to obey her because she is the Keeper, I support the choice that Merrill made.
Someone raised the point that Merrill could just have waited until she was Keeper herself, solving the conflict between her duties. I doubt it would have been so easy. Would she have been able to convice the clan that she was doing the right thing, after her predecessor shot it down? Would it have been possible to return to Sundermount if needed? Would it have been a good idea to take such a personal risk while being supposed to care for your people? Most important, would Marethari actually have allowed Merrill to keep the Eluvian the whole time? Good questions,  that make it very understandable why Merrill thought it necessary to follow her path now.
Both were proud and stubborn. Marethari expected Merrill to respect her authority over her obligations. Merrill choose the more promising path to help her people, assuming the Keeper couldn't have good reasons. Both of them could have avoided the tragic course of events in the first place, but both were set in their ways.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
No, Merrill left her clan to help the People. Merrill had an opinion
that differed from that of Keeper Marethari. I don't see how you think
restoring the Eluvian goes against the Dalish or their culture, because
the entire point behind the Dalish is restoring the past of the elvhenan
for the elves living in the present.

I don't.  My point was rather that the Dalish are a people and thus have no need to justify their existence to anyone or by doing anything.  And that Merrill's first duty (and her First duty, btw) was with and to her Clan.

LobselVith8 wrote...
No, Merrill was focused on helping her people in the present, by
restoring important technology from their past that might be able to
benefit them.

That's a nonsensical statement.  Doing something that might be of benefit to someone later is, by definition, helping them in the future.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Since the technology could benefit elves across the continent if Merrill
is correct... the answer should be obvious. What has the the Sabrae
clan been doing to help the People, besides wandering nomadically and
doing nothing about the plight of the People?

Elves in Thedas don't exactly have the easiest lot in life.  For a Dlaish Clan, just holding themselves together as a people (ie, not running off to pursue their own agendas and obsessions) is achievement enough.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill did try - which is why she pursued the Eluvian, basically doing what the Dalish are supposed to do.
Your entire argument comes down to Merrill having a disagreement with
one, single woman, who has the clan wrapped around her finger and who
have no real opinion besides "I follow Marethari." Having a disagreement
with one single person doesn't constitute Merrill abandoning her people
simply because you, personally, disagree with her choice.

But leaving her Clan to live in Kirkwall DOES constitute abandoning her Clan.  Your right, I do disagree with Merrill's choice.  I think she was prideful, selfish, and foolhardy.  But disagreement is the key concept here, not the merits and faults of pursueing eluvian research.  What transpired between Merrill and Marethari was just that: a disagreement.  One in which Merrill should have deferred to her superior's decision and continued in her role as First with her Clan.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill pursued ancient elven technology she believed might be able
to help her people. The Dalish, who have had no homeland since the fall
of the Dales. Who have brethern living in ghettos or in slavery. All of
the elves across Thedas. Revolutionary technology. I don't see why she
should abandon her goal when it can potentially help so many people (if
Merrill is correct).

The greatness of a people is evidenced by their works, not caused by their works.  Before one can be a Keeper, one must be a First; before one can be a First, one must be Dalish.  Merrill was an overly ambitious First who (before her time) tried to take on the mantle of a Keeper and, in so doing, forsook her responsibilities as a Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Merrill left her clan to help the People. Merrill had an opinion that differed from that of Keeper Marethari. I don't see how you think restoring the Eluvian goes against the Dalish or their culture, because the entire point behind the Dalish is restoring the past of the elvhenan for the elves living in the present.

I don't.  My point was rather that the Dalish are a people and thus have no need to justify their existence to anyone or by doing anything.  And that Merrill's first duty (and her First duty, btw) was with and to her Clan.

The entire reason the Dalish elves follow the old ways is because they adhere to their traditions and cultural beliefs of their ancestors, and their goal is to regain their lost lore and culture so they can one day teach it to their city brethern, who have forgotten about the old ways. Merrill was being more faithful to the goals of the Dalish than her own Keeper was.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Merrill was focused on helping her people in the present, by restoring important technology from their past that might be able to benefit them.

That's a nonsensical statement.  Doing something that might be of benefit to someone later is, by definition, helping them in the future.

I respectfully disagree. What she was doing with the Eluvian could potentially help all her people, and have widespread ramifications for all the clans across Thedas. It was more beneficial than keeping to the status quo that Marethari had urged Merrill to follow.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since the technology could benefit elves across the continent if Merrill is correct... the answer should be obvious. What has the the Sabrae clan been doing to help the People, besides wandering nomadically and doing nothing about the plight of the People?

Elves in Thedas don't exactly have the easiest lot in life.  For a Dlaish Clan, just holding themselves together as a people (ie, not running off to pursue their own agendas and obsessions) is achievement enough.

Not for Merrill. And that's why I agree with her actions over what Marethari suggested. Being complacent shouldn't be enough for anyone.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill did try - which is why she pursued the Eluvian, basically doing what the Dalish are supposed to do. Your entire argument comes down to Merrill having a disagreement with one, single woman, who has the clan wrapped around her finger and who have no real opinion besides "I follow Marethari." Having a disagreement with one single person doesn't constitute Merrill abandoning her people simply because you, personally, disagree with her choice.

But leaving her Clan to live in Kirkwall DOES constitute abandoning her Clan.  Your right, I do disagree with Merrill's choice.  I think she was prideful, selfish, and foolhardy.  But disagreement is the key concept here, not the merits and faults of pursueing eluvian research.  What transpired between Merrill and Marethari was just that: a disagreement.  One in which Merrill should have deferred to her superior's decision and continued in her role as First with her Clan.

Her clan =/= the People. Merrill's goals were admirable, which is why I defend them. Wanting to change the lives of her people for the better is something that should be strived for, rather than being passive about the plight of the Dalish like Marethari was. And simply because someone (like a superior) 'orders' you to do something doesn't mean those orders should be followed.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill pursued ancient elven technology she believed might be able to help her people. The Dalish, who have had no homeland since the fall of the Dales. Who have brethern living in ghettos or in slavery. All of the elves across Thedas. Revolutionary technology. I don't see why she should abandon her goal when it can potentially help so many people (if
Merrill is correct).

The greatness of a people is evidenced by their works, not caused by their works.  Before one can be a Keeper, one must be a First; before one can be a First, one must be Dalish.  Merrill was an overly ambitious First who (before her time) tried to take on the mantle of a Keeper and, in so doing, forsook her responsibilities as a Dalish.

Merrill didn't try to take the mantle of Keeper, she tried to recreate the Eluvian. She did research about it, and cleansed the shard of its corruption, and strived to recreate it because she believed it could be beneficial to the People. I don't see the merit in doing nothing but following the status quo like you're suggesting.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The entire reason the Dalish elves follow the old ways is because they adhere to their traditions and cultural beliefs of their ancestors, and their goal is to regain their lost lore and culture so they can one day teach it to their city brethern, who have forgotten about the old ways. Merrill was being more faithful to the goals of the Dalish than her own Keeper was.

The Dalish are the elves who would not accept human overlordship after the fall of The Dales.  There is no "goal" that, once achieved, means they stop being Dalish and start being Old Elvehnan again. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
Not for Merrill. And that's why I agree with her actions over what Marethari suggested. Being complacent shouldn't be enough for anyone.

There's nothing complacent about humbly being of service to one's family and friends while they face a crisis or about waiting for all things to come in the fullness of their own time.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Her clan =/= the People. Merrill's goals were admirable, which is why I defend them. Wanting to change the lives of her people for the better is something that should be strived for, rather than being passive about the plight of the Dalish like Marethari was.

Of course Merrill's goals were admirable!  But the path she took to achieve them was reprehensible.

LobselVith8 wrote...
And simply because someone (like a superior) 'orders' you to do something doesn't mean those orders should be followed.

  Marethari didn't want Merrill to attack a caravan or do anything in anyway immoral, she made a decision about pursuing a given line of research.  Rather than thinking about some superior ordering some subordinate to do something, think instead about this case.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill didn't try to take the mantle of Keeper, she tried to recreate the Eluvian. She did research about it, and cleansed the shard of its corruption, and strived to recreate it because she believed it could be beneficial to the People. I don't see the merit in doing nothing but following the status quo like you're suggesting.

The status quo was broken with the Blight, the flight from Ferelden, and the deaths of the halla.  Merrill's Clan was facing a dire crisis.  I'm not suggesting that she should have followed the status quo, I'm suggesting that she should have helped to restore it.

Modifié par General User, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Bayz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The entire reason the Dalish elves follow the old ways is because they
adhere to their traditions and cultural beliefs of their ancestors, and
their goal is to regain their lost lore and culture so they can one day
teach it to their city brethern, who have forgotten about the old ways.
Merrill was being more faithful to the goals of the Dalish than her own
Keeper was.

What traditions? They are making them up because they have no idea how the Old Elevhan acted.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Not for Merrill. And that's why I agree with her actions over what
Marethari suggested. Being complacent shouldn't be enough for anyone.

Waiting until the social conditions are right =\\= being complacent.

Being patient doesn't mean being complacent, look it up in the dictionary and increase your awereness on the language you are using. And this doesn't go only for you.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Her clan =/= the People. Merrill's goals were admirable, which is why I
defend them. Wanting to change the lives of her people for the better is
something that should be strived for, rather than being passive about
the plight of the Dalish like Marethari was.

Yeah she wants to change the lives of her people for the better by...repairing an overgrown cellphone. Oh shame she had to slaughter her clan in the process, I guess...

LobselVith8 wrote...
And simply because someone
(like a superior) 'orders' you to do something doesn't mean those orders
should be followed.

 

If said superior afraid of how people would react says she doesn't want anything to do with it and you keep going on and on and on throwing the same line of reasoning that said people rejected already, then she tries to avoid danger to you, screws up and you are forced to kill her, it is not her complete fault that people would like to take your ass is it?

It is called responsability, you'll learn it when you grow up.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill didn't try to take the mantle of Keeper, she tried to
recreate the Eluvian. She did research about it, and cleansed the shard
of its corruption, and strived to recreate it because she believed it
could be beneficial to the People. I don't see the merit in doing
nothing but following the status quo like you're suggesting.

She may not want to, which we do not know as it isn't stated AFAIK, but it is her duty (another grown up concept), she would have had more space to apply the last part of the ritual then, and more resources in case it screwed up. She could even have time to change her people's views from the fears Marethari reinforced in them.

[dragonflight288]

The status quo was broken with the Blight, the flight from Ferelden, and the deaths of the halla. Merrill's Clan was facing a dire crisis. I'm not suggesting that she should have followed the status quo, I'm suggesting that she should have helped to restore it.

I can understand where you're coming from. I truly can. I respectfully disagree because the status quo is also seen in the Dalish origin story. They haven't accomplished anything. Beyond pissing off a village.