544 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The status quo was broken with the Blight, the flight from Ferelden, and the deaths of the halla. Merrill's Clan was facing a dire crisis. I'm not suggesting that she should have followed the status quo, I'm suggesting that she should have helped to restore it.

I can understand where you're coming from. I truly can. I respectfully disagree because the status quo is also seen in the Dalish origin story. They haven't accomplished anything. Beyond pissing off a village.

Oh but they have!  Accomplished, much that is.  Holding themselves together as a family and as a Clan in a world that is suspicious of them at the very least is quite the accomplishment in my book.

[LobselVith8]

Bayz wrote...

I don't want to derail the topic so I will be as brief in the matter as I can.

United NationsConvention on the Prevention and
Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).

Look it up

So you are equating a group of people (Dalish elves) trying to murder at least two people (Hawke and Merrill) in cold blood to genocide?

Bayz wrote...

Ethically the elves of Merril's clan did NOT want the "gift" Merril was offering, they stated several times they did not want anything to do with it, they considered it evil and they did want nothing to do with it.

Why should one single clan speak for the entire elven race? Why should Merrill abandon technology that could benefit all her people when she's done the research, and the clan blindly follows Keeper Marethari and her close-minded view of the situation (that doesn't seem to be informed by any actual research)?

Bayz wrote...

Yet Merril went all "For science!" and kept going, they reacted as any group of people with their believes and life experiences could get to react if stuff like this happened. They did not kn ow Marethari had a demon inside, they did not trust Merril could actually cleanse it, Merril didn't know the extent of this could happen, yet she didn't cared that it might, only obsessively caring about the Eluvian.

No, she wasn't trying to mimic Dr. Insano, Merrill cared about technology that could be revolutionary for her people, and that might radically transform their lives for the better.

Bayz wrote...

And yet it eneded up triggering the execution of her whole clan. You know, if you provoke a group with intent that it will attack you and then wipe said group out, you are still committing genocide, maybe you would like to call it something else, call it "self-defense" or "giving them cookies", but if you ended up in the Hage being trialled for it changing its name will not help you, and screaming "it was for progress" will be a bad case for you...

By "provoke," you mean tell the clan the truth. That's what causes the clan to attempt to kill Hawke and Merrill in cold blood unless Hawke coddles the group. There's no reason to blame Hawke or Merrill for a group of men and women trying to murder them if Hawke explains what happened.

Bayz wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't believe that anybody has actually expressed the opinion that killing the clan was helping them; just that, as the clan attacked first, Hawke and Merrill are morally blameless for their deaths.

OK. We provoked them to become hostile, so we are just defending ourselves. Happy now? Don't see the moral blameless bit as we have been warned that it might happen, not to that scale but anyway.

It is like saying that it is Leliana's fault to die if you corrupt the urn of sacred ashes and she attacks you.

If Leliana tries to murder The Warden, it is her fault. Her religious beliefs don't justify cold-blooded murder.

Bayz wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

No one ever said that. You might equate "not listening to your superiors when they  make no sense, thus starting a chain of events in which several people make wrong calls, concluding in vindicative people trying to murder you" with "slaughtering everyone", but stop twisting words.

You might equate "Wait until you do fulfill your duties and take command and then keep on with the very last part of the ritual" with "leaving the Eluvian forever rotting in a cave into oblivion", but stop twisting words.

Merrill doesn't have to wait if she doesn't want to. She left the clan and pursued a course of action she believed to hold the promise of helping the People. It was her choice.

[Bayz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Leliana tries to murder The Warden, it is her fault. Her religious beliefs don't justify cold-blooded murder.

I was going to answer the post but I saw this.

Modifié par Bayz, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]TJPags wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]TJPags wrote...

I don't even know who to quote here, so I won't bother:

I love that people see nothing wrong with someone simply choosing to disobey a person they are SUPPOSED to listen to.

I wonder - if a 14 year old child decided they wanted to take their parents car for a ride, and was told no, would it also be okay if that child thought about it for a while a decided, "hey, my parents are wrong"? [/quote]

You're equating a learned scholar of the arcane arts - who is building a Eluvian based on two thousand year old elven technology because she thinks it can fundamentally help the People, who have been on a downward spiral since the fall of the Dales and have been nomadic to avoid their elven mages getting killed by the templars - with a 14 year old child? The analogy simply doesn't add up, TJPags. Merrill is doing what she believes is right, based on actual study of the Eluvian, while Marethari condemns it based on her assumptions alone.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

It's really that simple - she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. She chose not to. That is wrong. [/quote]

Not if the Keeper is wrong, which is what Merrill believed was the case. Merrill was doing her duty as a Dalish by restoring the past - which means she was being more faithful to the premise and goal of the Dalish than her clan's own Keeper was. Merrill addresses this when Hawke asks if risking her life is worth the price: "If it brings back this artifact of the elvhen, if it gives us even one piece of our history, it's worth any risk."

[quote]TJPags wrote...

It has nothing to do with what Maretheri did or didn't do. It has everything to do with what Merrill didn't do - listen.

But hey, I guess we all go through our "parents are idiots" phase. Luckily, for most people, it doesn't lead to the death of their entire family.[/quote]

Marethari's own actions can lead to the death of the clan, because she poisoned them against Merrill to such an extreme that they commit suicide by Hawke unless Hawke coddles them.[/quote]

Please don't bring me back into this. [/quote]

No one is forcing you to respond, TJPags. You're doing so of your own free will.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Continuing speculating that Merrill is wonder girl (based on information not given in game) and that Maretheri is stupid (based on nothing more than you think she is) and that the rest of the Dalish have no say in the matter at all (because they disagree with Wonder Girl). [/quote]

I don't see a reason to side with Marethari based on what David Gaider, the head writer of Dragon Age, has stated about the fact that Merrill was researching the lore and extrapolating information from the shard. Merrill did the research, she committed the time to getting all the facts she could. Marethari, in comparison, makes arguments based on what she believes the ancestors would have wanted (in Act II), and then what she thinks Audacity had planned if the Eluvian was restored (in Act III).

[quote]TJPags wrote...

She was told to stop.  She didn't.  Chaos ensues.  Story should be over except everyone wants to gigglesquee over her.

So again - whatever.[/quote]

Merrill is a person, she isn't a robot. She doesn't have to stop simply because Marethari asks her to, especially when she thinks the technology can benefit her people. Merrill has free will, she can exorcise it. I don't see why Merrill being pro-active is viewed so negatively.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Merrill, as part of the clan, was supposed to defer to Maretheri, not only the Keeper, but her mentor.  That's how I see it.  She didn't do that.  If she had, no other decision needed to be made - not Maretheri dealing with the Demon, not the clan attacking Hawke, not even Merrill's exile.  All she had to do was listen - she could have waited until she was Keeper herself, could have kept trying to convince Maretheri, could have persuaded Maretheri to assist her. [/quote]

So she should have been complacent? I respect the fact that Merrill is pro-active, and wants to improve the plight of her people. She did the research. She studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard. She successfully cleansed the shard. Marethari doesn't seem to have done any research, and none of her arguments suggest that her stance is anything more than her speculation about what the elder elves would have wanted until she becomes an abomination and makes a claim she has no evidence of proving.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Instead, in a childish "I know better" fit, she insisted on doing what she wanted, rather than follow the rule she was bound to follow.  End result - Merrill is exiled, Maretheri dead, clan Keeperless or even dead themselves.  AND THE MIRROR DID NOTHING to help the Dalish - there was no result that could remotely be called positive. [/quote]

Marethari is dead because she became an abomination. The clan can die if they attempt to commit cold-blooded murder against Hawke and Merrill. And nothing comes from the Eluvian (at the moment) because Audacity is gone, and Merrill has exhausted all her avaliable options.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

To further answer your questions:  No, kids should NOT trust their own judgment over that of others.  They're kids, not adults.  And even as an adult, I know many people who still ask their parents advice - someone always has more experience than you.  Sure, sometimes you DO know better, sometimes you ARE right.  But as a kid?  No, you don't know better than your parents. [/quote]

Merrill is an adult, she can make her own decisions. And given the incredible lack of judgement that Marethari displays when she let's Audacity loose (without at least getting her people to safety first), I can rest assured that her judgement should not be trusted on this issue.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

As for disobeying unlawful orders - how does that track?  There's nothing unlawful about Maretheri saying don't screw with the mirror.  If she'd told Merrill to go slaughter a peasant family, sure, I'd agree.  But this situation doesn't remotely rise to that level. [/quote]

It's because the Dalish are focused on reclaiming the past, their lore, and the old ways. The Eluvian is part of their history - technology that could prove invaluable, if it had succeeded as Merrill hoped.

[quote]TJPags wrote...

Should Merrill have been allowed to investigate the mirror?  Sure, maybe.  I don't know that - nor do I care.

I know she was told not to.  I know she refused to listen.  And I know that, in the end, she got nothing out of it.

How that remotely makes her right, I have no idea. [/quote]

I think you are missing the point. People agree that Merrill should have pursued the technology, no one is claiming that Merrill would have been proven correct beyond a shadow of a doubt. It was a possibility, and one that I think was worth exploring because of its potential to help the elves.

[Forst1999]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't believe that anybody has actually expressed the opinion that killing the clan was helping them; just that, as the clan attacked first, Hawke and Merrill are morally blameless for their deaths.

OK. We provoked them to become hostile, so we are just defending ourselves. Happy now? Don't see the moral blameless bit as we have been warned that it might happen, not to that scale but anyway.

It is like saying that it is Leliana's fault to die if you corrupt the urn of sacred ashes and she attacks you.

If Leliana tries to murder The Warden, it is her fault. Her religious beliefs don't justify cold-blooded murder.

Leliana tried to defend a artifact from a Warden that tried to destroy it as a favor to a buch of crazy murderers, to achieve personal gain. A Warden that took her along should really have known that she wouldn't stand by while doing so. I assume that If Leliana (and Wynne) had a possibility to prevent it without killing someone, they would have prefered it.
Fenarel and Ineria tried to murder Merrill and Hawke, who had good intentions, out of vindictivness, because they couldn't accept the Keeper's decision to take the blow for her, and because in their worked up state they weren't ready to listen to reason. Before meeting Marethari in the cave, the is no possibility to know how this would end. Fenarel and Ineria just want her dead now, there is nothing they want to achieve by it but revenge.
I don't think you can really compare this two situations.

Modifié par Forst1999, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The entire reason the Dalish elves follow the old ways is because they adhere to their traditions and cultural beliefs of their ancestors, and their goal is to regain their lost lore and culture so they can one day teach it to their city brethern, who have forgotten about the old ways. Merrill was being more faithful to the goals of the Dalish than her own Keeper was.[/quote]

The Dalish are the elves who would not accept human overlordship after the fall of The Dales.  There is no "goal" that, once achieved, means they stop being Dalish and start being Old Elvehnan again.  [/quote]

The Dalish clans do have goals. Let's take a look at the summary for the Dalish Origin to see this explicitly stated:

[quote] "We are the Dalish: keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path. We are the last of the Elvhenan, and never again shall we submit."

This is the oath the Dalish elves hold close to their hearts. In ancient times the elves ruled over Thedas alone, ageless and beautiful, until the humans came. Enslaved for a thousand years, the elves lost not only their immortality but their very identity. The Dalish are those elves who proudly refuse to live in human cities, proudly wandering the most remote corners of the wild lands in small clans that rarely meet. Their wagons are welcome nowhere, and more than one tale is told of the Dalish clashing with remote villagers who attempt to drive them away by force.         

Much has been lost, but the Dalish will find what has been lost and keep it safe. They will re-learn the elven tongue, rediscover the ancient crafts and practice the old magics. They will spurn the human god and instead cleave to the ancient pantheon of the elves, praying that one day their own gods will return and lead their people to a new homeland. There the Dalish will await the return of those elves who have forgotten what they were, they will teach them to remember. [/quote]

Apparently, one of the goals of the Dalish clans is to teach their city brethern what they have forgotten. This is even mentioned when The Warden encounters Zathrian's clan. In fact, according to Keeper Gisharel of the Ralaferin Clan, "We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten."

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not for Merrill. And that's why I agree with her actions over what Marethari suggested. Being complacent shouldn't be enough for anyone.[/quote]

There's nothing complacent about humbly being of service to one's family and friends while they face a crisis or about waiting for all things to come in the fullness of their own time. [/quote]

It's complacent to do nothing when it's within one's power to try to change things for the better. If people throughout history followed your argument, there would be no discoveries, there would be no revolutionaries, there would be no change.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Her clan =/= the People. Merrill's goals were admirable, which is why I defend them. Wanting to change the lives of her people for the better is something that should be strived for, rather than being passive about the plight of the Dalish like Marethari was. [/quote]

Of course Merrill's goals were admirable!  But the path she took to achieve them was reprehensible. [/quote]

Merrill went her own way to accomplish her goals. There was nothing reprehensible about going her own way when Keeper Marethari didn't wish for her to recreate the Eluvian.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And simply because someone (like a superior) 'orders' you to do something doesn't mean those orders should be followed. [/quote] 

Marethari didn't want Merrill to attack a caravan or do anything in anyway immoral, she made a decision about pursuing a given line of research.  Rather than thinking about some superior ordering some subordinate to do something, think instead about this case. [/quote]

Considering how beneficial the Eluvian could be if Merrill was correct, Marethari was encouraging for the elves to remain in ignorance when technology could help their lives, especially when the clans have lost so much already.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't try to take the mantle of Keeper, she tried to recreate the Eluvian. She did research about it, and cleansed the shard of its corruption, and strived to recreate it because she believed it could be beneficial to the People. I don't see the merit in doing nothing but following the status quo like you're suggesting.[/quote]

The status quo was broken with the Blight, the flight from Ferelden, and the deaths of the halla.  Merrill's Clan was facing a dire crisis.  I'm not suggesting that she should have followed the status quo, I'm suggesting that she should have helped to restore it. [/quote]

The Sabrae clan didn't need Merrill in any specific way that would be detrimental to them. In fact, Hawke and Merrill are needed to deal with the problems that the hunters of the Sabrae clan couldn't accomplish on their own, which wouldn't have been possible without Hawke and Merrill having a relationship of some sort.

[Gabey5]

Lord Aesir wrote...

1) Does not really put Marethari at blame for anything but possibly being hypocritical. If it was true, which I doubt, I don't see why healing magic wouldn't be able to delay the taint, seeing as it's a poison.

2) She wasn't smug, and I was under the impression she had been warning the clan about the dangers of Merrill's blood magic since before she left.

3) Merrill wouldn't have listened.

The guy who lets generations of human beings suffer out of grudge? Really? He was flat out malicious.

Right on the money. She would not listen.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The entire reason the Dalish elves follow the old ways is because they adhere to their traditions and cultural beliefs of their ancestors, and their goal is to regain their lost lore and culture so they can one day teach it to their city brethern, who have forgotten about the old ways. Merrill was being more faithful to the goals of the Dalish than her own
Keeper was.[/quote]

What traditions? They are making them up because they have no idea how the Old Elevhan acted. [/quote]

Considering the use of the old language, the blood writing, the artifacts from Arlathan and the Dales, and the attempt to restore what was lost with the fall of the Arlathan and the Dales, I'm not certain why you think the Dalish simply make up everything. David Gaider addressed that Merrill studied lore about the Eluvian - that wouldn't be possible if the Dalish were simply making everything up. The Dalish believe in a pantheon of gods - the Creators - and Merrill acknowledges that the elves don't actually know who the Forgotten Ones were, or who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. Clearly, they don't simply fill in the gaps if they lack the knowledge about a part of their history. Also, Morrigan stole a book from the time of Arlathan about the Eluvians. Even Finn had studied the language of the ancient elves of the kingdom of Arlathan.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not for Merrill. And that's why I agree with her actions over what Marethari suggested. Being complacent shouldn't be enough for anyone.[/quote]

Waiting until the social conditions are right == being complacent.

Being patient doesn't mean being complacent, look it up in the dictionary and increase your awereness on the language you are using. And this doesn't go only for you. [/quote]

The problem is, the social conditions would never be right in the Sabrae clan. Marethari publicly opposed it, and the entire clan was poisoned against it.

Patience had nothing to do with it. Considering that Keeper Marethari didn't agree with Merrill about the Eluvian and the entire Sabrae clan was aware of this, it wasn't simply a matter of time for Merrill.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Her clan =/= the People. Merrill's goals were admirable, which is why I defend them. Wanting to change the lives of her people for the better is something that should be strived for, rather than being passive about the plight of the Dalish like Marethari was. [/quote]

Yeah she wants to change the lives of her people for the better by...repairing an overgrown cellphone. Oh shame she had to slaughter her clan in the process, I guess... [/quote]

Considering how technology has irrevocably changed civilization, I'm surprised you belittle it so easily. And Merrill didn't initiate an attack on anyone in her clan, she defends herself from cold-blooded murder if Hawke is truthful to the hunters about what transpired with Keeper Marethari.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And simply because someone (like a superior) 'orders' you to do something doesn't mean those orders should be followed. [/quote] 

If said superior afraid of how people would react says she doesn't want anything to do with it and you keep going on and on and on throwing the same line of reasoning that said people rejected already, then she tries to avoid danger to you, screws up and you are forced to kill her, it is not her complete fault that people would like to take your ass is it?

It is called responsability, you'll learn it when you grow up. [/quote]

Merrill left the Sabrae clan. She was living in the Alienage, she wasn't operating under the auspicies of Keeper Marethari or anyone else from the Sabrae clan. And the clan tried to murder Hawke and Merrill, so I don't see how you can justify a murder attempt when Marethari is the one who let Audacity loose and become an abomination.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill didn't try to take the mantle of Keeper, she tried to recreate the Eluvian. She did research about it, and cleansed the shard of its corruption, and strived to recreate it because she believed it could be beneficial to the People. I don't see the merit in doing nothing but following the status quo like you're suggesting. [/quote]

She may not want to, which we do not know as it isn't stated AFAIK, but it is her duty (another grown up concept), she would have had more space to apply the last part of the ritual then, and more resources in case it screwed up. She could even have time to change her people's views from the fears Marethari reinforced in them. [/quote]

Merrill stepped down as First and left the clan. She pursued a goal that she thought was worthy. She isn't a robot who must follow orders, no matter the cost. She's a person who followed a path that she felt would benefit the People, and I don't see why you think Merrill could dissuade any member of the Sabrae clan when Keeper Marethari already poisoned everyone against her.

[quote]Bayz wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If Leliana tries to murder The Warden, it is her fault. Her religious beliefs don't justify cold-blooded murder. [/quote]

I was going to answer the post but I saw this. Good luck with puberty. [/quote]

The Urn of Sacred Ashes is already destroyed. Leliana was there when The Warden agreed to do it for Kolgrim, and she didn't try to dissuade him when the group was away from Kolgrim. She could have walked away in disgust, she could have called him out, she could have tried to convince him otherwise prior to spilling the Dragon Andraste's blood in the Urn, but she didn't. Leliana tries to murder The Warden.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish clans do have goals. Let's take a look at the summary for the Dalish Origin to see this explicitly stated:

"We are the Dalish: keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path. We are the last of the Elvhenan, and never again shall we submit."

This is the oath the Dalish elves hold close to their hearts. In ancient times the elves ruled over Thedas alone, ageless and beautiful, until the humans came. Enslaved for a thousand years, the elves lost not only their immortality but their very identity. The Dalish are those elves who proudly refuse to live in human cities, proudly wandering the most remote corners of the wild lands in small clans that rarely meet. Their wagons are welcome nowhere, and more than one tale is told of the Dalish clashing with remote villagers who attempt to drive them away by force.         

Much has been lost, but the Dalish will find what has been lost and keep it safe. They will re-learn the elven tongue, rediscover the ancient crafts and practice the old magics. They will spurn the human god and instead cleave to the ancient pantheon of the elves, praying that one day their own gods will return and lead their people to a new homeland. There the Dalish will await the return of those elves who have forgotten what they were, they will teach them to remember.

Apparently, one of the goals of the Dalish clans is to teach their city brethern what they have forgotten. This is even mentioned when The Warden encounters Zathrian's clan. In fact, according to Keeper Gisharel of the Ralaferin Clan, "We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten."

The Dalish clans have a "goal" of regaining the old elven ways the same way shemlen nations have the "goal" of living in security from their neighbors.  Those type of "goals" are unobtainable and deciding to which of them to pursue is a matter of cultural values.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's complacent to do nothing when it's within one's power to try to change things for the better. If people throughout history followed your argument, there would be no discoveries, there would be no revolutionaries, there would be no change.

Humbly being of service to one's family and friends while they face a crisis and waiting for things to come in the fullness of time is not doing nothing.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill went her own way to accomplish her goals. There was nothing reprehensible about going her own way when Keeper Marethari didn't wish for her to recreate the Eluvian.

She disobeyed her mentor, consorted with a demon, and left her Clan during a time of great need.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering how beneficial the Eluvian could be if Merrill was correct, Marethari was encouraging for the elves to remain in ignorance when technology could help their lives, especially when the clans have lost so much already.

When one is wounded it is not the time to pursue an activity that would be dangerous even under the best of circumstances.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Sabrae clan didn't need Merrill in any specific way that would be detrimental to them. In fact, Hawke and Merrill are needed to deal with the problems that the hunters of the Sabrae clan couldn't accomplish on their own, which wouldn't have been possible without Hawke and Merrill having a relationship of some sort.

Not only is Merrill one of the most talented mages in Thedas, but she's a member of a Clan, a Tribe.  Sabrae Clan needed her in much the same way a family needs it's beloved, brilliant daughter.  Could they get on without her?  Probably.  Should they have to?  No.

Modifié par General User, 03 novembre 2011 - 06:21 .

[Xilizhra]

Not only is Merrill one of the most talented mages in Thedas, but she's a member of a Clan, a Tribe. Sabrae Clan needed her in much the same way a family needs it's beloved, brilliant daughter. Could they get on without her? Probably. Should they have to? No.

Well, given that the clan didn't even want her...
"Then finish your task quickly, human. We cannot be rid of this one too soon."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 novembre 2011 - 06:22 .

[General User]

It is often those closest to us that we hurt worst of all. And they us.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]General User wrote...

The Dalish clans have a "goal" of regaining the old elven ways the same way shemlen nations have the "goal" of living in security from their neighbors.  Those type of "goals" are unobtainable and deciding to which of them to pursue is a matter of cultural values. [/quote]

It's not part of the mantra of humans living in Thedas to have "security" like it's part of the Dalish to regain the lost culture of Arlathan, and to one day teach their city-brethern all they have forgotten.

[quote]General User wrote...

Humbly being of service to one's family and friends while they face a crisis and waiting for things to come in the fullness of time is not doing nothing. [/quote]

That's precisely what Merrill does for Hawke when Leandra dies, if she romanced him. Merrill is part of a community among the Dalish, she isn't being forced into servitude not to have a differing opinion than the Keeper.

[quote]General User wrote...

She disobeyed her mentor, consorted with a demon, and left her Clan during a time of great need. [/quote]

Merrill studied the lore about the Eluvian, made an informed decision, learned specialized blood magic without releasing an entrapped demon, and followed her own path because the clan blindly followed Marethari's uninformed opinion about the Eluvian.

[quote]General User wrote...

When one is wounded it is not the time to pursue an activity that would be dangerous even under the best of circumstances. [/quote]

The Dalish have been nomadic, without a kingdom, and slowly losing magic for centuries now. I think it's never been a better time to regain an important part of their history, and technology that could revitalize their culture in a dramatic and influential way.

[quote]General User wrote...

Not only is Merrill one of the most talented mages in Thedas, but she's a member of a Clan, a Tribe.  Sabrae Clan needed her in much the same way a family needs it's beloved, brilliant daughter.  Could they get on without her?  Probably.  Should they have to?  No. [/quote]

Should Merrill have to abandon her goal when it can possibly improve the lives of elves across Thedas? I don't think so.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Forst1999 wrote...

As Marethari's reasons for opposing the Eluvian (the removable taint and blood magic) aren't exactly convincing, i can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it. [/quote]

You can understand why Merrill insisted on restoring it?  To your way of thinking, why is that? 

I can see why she disagreed with her Keeper about restoring the eluvian, but no further. Disagreeing with one's superiors does not excuse disobeying them. [/quote]

Because the technology was revolutionary, especially given how much the Dalish lost in the fall of the nation of the Dales and the loss of the kingdom of Arlathan.

And if Merrill was able to succeed, I'd imagine revolutionary technology would have been able to benefit the Dalish all over Thedas. That's worth going against Marethari's orders.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Forst1999 wrote...
The dalish will always have troubles, and Merrill believed that she could better serve her people by doing something for the future. [/quote]

Such is the folly of youth. [/quote]

How is it 'folly' to want a better future for your people?

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

Considering how idiotic and retrograde Merrill's clan is, I can hardly blame her for imagining a bright future.[/quote]

I don't understand.  Are you trying to say that Merrill's imagination and reality bear little resemblance to one another?
[/quote]

Are you saying that Marethari's clan was idiotic and retrograde?

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...

I don't understand. Are you trying to say that Merrill's imagination and reality bear little resemblance to one another?[/quote]

Well, as Merrill imagined that her clan would rather restore itself to some semblance of its former self instead of decay into nothingness, I suppose I am.[/quote]

Merrill's Clan are not bad people.  What they would rather to do is remain together through all they have endured and endure still.  They do not wish to decay, but the truth is that if the Dalish are to have a real future they must first have a present, and that's where Merrill abandoned them, in the present. [/quote]

Merrill didn't abandon anyone, she went her own way, and the members of the clan were more than content to see her leave because they blindly followed Keeper Marethari.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Forst1999 wrote...

So she left the clan, Marethri is no longer her superior. She isn't property of the clan, she is an adult, free woman that must do what she thinks is the right thing to do.[/quote]

Marty, you're just not thinking 4th dimensionally tribally.  As the Clan's first Merrill has an obligation to serve her clan by obeying her Keeper.  Not following her own vision.

Sebastian said it best: "None of us are free." [/quote]

I think Merrill felt a greater obligation to her duty as a Dalish First - and the People - to regain the lost technology of the Eluvian for the elves across Thedas. As Merrill admits, "It's a Keeper's job to remember. Even the dangerous things."

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

Anyway, she had the right to ban Merrill, to tell her to never come back, etc. But beyond that she had no right to lord her life. It's Merrill's choice if she wants to become Keeper or rather do something different. [/quote] 

When Merrill was Marethari's First, Marethari did indeed have a right to lord over her life.  And it is ultimately the Clan's decison if they will accept Merrill as their Keeper or not. [/quote]

Velanna clearly addresses that this isn't the case, since she left with other members of her clan to pursue a different course of action than the Keeper wanted. Arianni left her clan to pursue a life in the city. Clearly, Merrill isn't beholden to remain with her clan if she chooses not to.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

The Dalish are no communists after all. As far as I know anyway. [/quote]

The Dalish are a tribal/clan-based society. [/quote]

A myraid of elves who have no real life counterpart.

[General User]

LobselVith8, vice copy and pasting quotes I would like to try something a bit unusual and try to explain my position through the use of a Zen koan.  Go easy on me, I haven't done many of these. Ahem...



Merrill should care less about the elves and more about elves.

Modifié par General User, 03 novembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

It is often those closest to us that we hurt worst of all. And they us.

Evidently. Though it was the clan's choice to get rid of Merrill; she would have been fine with remaining had she been allowed to study the Eluvian, but she wasn't, and was forced to leave.

Merrill should care less about the elves and more about elves.

For her, the positions are pretty much the same, and the results may well be too. And Merrill didn't think she was removing anything much from her clan; she herself said she'd have been a terrible Keeper. Plus the clan hated her anyway.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 novembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[megski]

Honestly, I wonder what good a restored Eluvian would do. What if it was some phenomenal device that cured all the worlds ills? I'm just wondering that if restoring the Eluvian was a good thing how long would it take for it to be destroyed, taken away, etc. There are so many unknown things about them, I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to actually use it.

[Forst1999]

General User wrote...
Merrill should care less about the elves and more about elves.

As in "care less for the fate of the elven people, and more about the people around her"? Perfectly valid opinion. But as her clan will always have it's troubles, and more of ancient elven culture gets lost every day, i can also understand Merrill's decision.

[TheJediSaint]

megski wrote...

Honestly, I wonder what good a restored Eluvian would do. What if it was some phenomenal device that cured all the worlds ills? I'm just wondering that if restoring the Eluvian was a good thing how long would it take for it to be destroyed, taken away, etc. There are so many unknown things about them, I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to actually use it.

You're forgeting about letting potentially nasting things come out through the mirror.  Ancient magical artifacts like Eluvians are dangerous for people who dont have Flemeth's cheat sheet Grimore.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:16 .

[jlb524]

megski wrote...
Honestly, I wonder what good a restored Eluvian would do. What if it was some phenomenal device that cured all the worlds ills? I'm just wondering that if restoring the Eluvian was a good thing how long would it take for it to be destroyed, taken away, etc. There are so many unknown things about them, I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to actually use it.

It's value mainly lies in what it represents. The ancient elves were pretty awesome and things were nice and grand for them until having a few run ins with humans (Tevinters, Andrastians).  As a result, they not only lost pretty much everything from their culture (including language, magic) but to add insult to injury, modern day elves either have to submit to human rule and culture and live in crummy alienages or they are forced to become nomadic wanderers.

If Merrill wants to do something with her life to try and make things even a little better for the elves (even if it's something that simply boosts their morale a bit) her best bet is to go with restoring lost lore because:  a) That's what she was trained to do since age 4 and She had an ancient elven artifact practically fall onto her lap.

Even if the mirror doesn't really do anything useful, it's still adding more lore to the nearly non-existent elven culture.  In addition, the knowledge Merrill would gain from fixing the mirror can be passed down to the next generation of Keepers.

[megski]

jlb524 wrote...

megski wrote...
Honestly, I wonder what good a restored Eluvian would do. What if it was some phenomenal device that cured all the worlds ills? I'm just wondering that if restoring the Eluvian was a good thing how long would it take for it to be destroyed, taken away, etc. There are so many unknown things about them, I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to actually use it.

It's value mainly lies in what it represents. The ancient elves were pretty awesome and things were nice and grand for them until having a few run ins with humans (Tevinters, Andrastians).  As a result, they not only lost pretty much everything from their culture (including language, magic) but to add insult to injury, modern day elves either have to submit to human rule and culture and live in crummy alienages or they are forced to become nomadic wanderers.

If Merrill wants to do something with her life to try and make things even a little better for the elves (even if it's something that simply boosts their morale a bit) her best bet is to go with restoring lost lore because:  a) That's what she was trained to do since age 4 and She had an ancient elven artifact practically fall onto her lap.

Even if the mirror doesn't really do anything useful, it's still adding more lore to the nearly non-existent elven culture.  In addition, the knowledge Merrill would gain from fixing the mirror can be passed down to the next generation of Keepers.

The only problem with that though is that the only thing anyone knows about the Eluvian is that it sucked Tamlen in, never to be seen again.  It isn't going to be a huge moral boost if everyone is terrified of it.  Even then it didn't get finished, which was a huge bummer for me.  I am also disappointed in that we never really find out what Merrill learned about it either, which I think would have helped motivate the players to participate (or not to) in Merrill's plight.  

[megski]

TheJediSaint wrote...

megski wrote...

Honestly, I wonder what good a restored Eluvian would do. What if it was some phenomenal device that cured all the worlds ills? I'm just wondering that if restoring the Eluvian was a good thing how long would it take for it to be destroyed, taken away, etc. There are so many unknown things about them, I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to actually use it.

You're forgeting letting potentially nasting thing to come out through the mirror.  Ancient magical artifacts like Eluvians are dangerous for people who dont have Flemeth's cheat sheet Grimore.

Exactly, and I think this was a plot fault anyhow.  I mean, what does come out gets killed anyway, so why not let her finish it.  The whole thing with the stupid mirror just disappointed me.  

[jlb524]

megski wrote...
The only problem with that though is that the only thing anyone knows about the Eluvian is that it sucked Tamlen in, never to be seen again. 

Well, we know more about eluvians than that.  If you are referring to the clan, then one thing they know about it is that it was the cause of Tamlen's disappearance.  But they still also know that it's an ancient elven artifact and can sense its importance.

megski wrote...
It isn't going to be a huge moral boost if everyone is terrified of it.  

They don't have to stay terrified of it forever.  I'd say the main reason that Merrill's clan was afraid is because of Marethari's reaction to it.  Even if they can't get over their initial bias towards the mirror, it could still be a boost to other clans' morale.

megski wrote...
Even then it didn't get finished, which was a huge bummer for me.  I am also disappointed in that we never really find out what Merrill learned about it either, which I think would have helped motivate the players to participate (or not to) in Merrill's plight.  

Knowing the eventual outcome would take away the significance of Hawke's decision to support Merrill or not.  It's easy to support her if you know something great would come out of it.  If you mean from a meta-perspecitve, some still care about Merrill's story even though there are still things unanswered (just look at this thread).

[Forst1999]

dafangirl wrote...

Just a few quick thoughts...

Marethari definitely uses blood magic, w/o an entire circle of mages and a lot of lyrium she wouldn't have been able to send you into the fade after Feynriel.

Interesting thought, but i don't think we have any evidence to support that. She just tells of some ritual, this might simply not be known by the mages in the Redcliffe questline. It is also possible that Feynriel's state as a dreamer or his "not being quite possessed yet" made accessing him in the fade easier than Connor in DA:O.

There's a distinct difference between using blood like lyrium and "blood magic". Are most Dalish elves blood mages, yes, but they're not maleficars, their knowledge has consistently passed from Keeper to First, what Morrigan refers to as "old magic".

The Arlathan elves possessed this magic, "ancient or old" magic, the humans wanted that knowledge, the elves said no; ergo, human mages went into the fade to acquire the knowledge from demons. Not coincidentally, this was the only way to acquire the blood mage spec before tomes were intro'd in Awakening.

I'm not sure if "old magic" is just blood magic without malicious intent (if i understood you correctly). As Marethari IS not pleased with Merrill's blood magic and certainly didn't teach it to her ("The mirror let you to blood magic", Act 2, Mirror Image), i don't think it is a thing that is commonly passed from teacher to first. But at least Zathrian definitly seemed to use it (not talking about his gameplay specialization, but of his ritual that involved his life force - pretty blood-magicy for me)
Where did you get that second part? Just interested.

Modifié par Forst1999, 03 novembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[jlb524]

I've always wondered how Marethari did the dreamer ritual without a crap ton of lyrium or blood magic.

Maybe she's a spit mage XD

She says she uses 'Somniari' arts...whatever that is.  But like Forst says, no evidence either way...but I like your thoughts, dafangirl.  I agree and think the ancient elves were the first to use blood magic but we have no way of knowing that for a fact right now.

General User wrote...
Merrill should care less about the elves and more about elves.

Ah, but she indeed does.  She initially wanted to study the eluvian not for the purpose of restoring a lost artifact for 'the elves' but to help find Tamlen and to possibly understand what happened to the Dalish Warden, if you did that Origin.  Who knows?  Perhaps the mirror taint will have unforseen affects on the Dalish Warden down the road?  ...but anyway, that was Merrill's original purpose for studying the eluvian.  She was doing all this for specific individuals that were in her clan.  I think both Merrill and Marethari, initially, had an emotional response to what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel....both were affected deeply by the loss of their clanmembers.  Merrill wanted to confront the issue and learn more about what happened to them...Marethari simply wanted to move on.

At some point in time, Merrill realizes that Tamlen is a lost cause and, if the Warden is Dalish, that the mighty Hero of Ferelden doesn't need her help anymore so at this point she decides that it will still be worthwhile to study the eluvian for 'the elves' and try to restore a piece of history that they've all lost.  I've always wondered when she decided to change her reason for studying the mirror...if it happened before she leaves with Hawke for Kirkwall or sometime afterwards and before Act 2.  We don't know.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:58 .

[TJPags]

So much excuse for the fact that Merrill didn't listen . . .

"she doesn't have to"
"She shouldn't have to"
"She was right"
"Maretheri shirked her duties"
"Merrill studied"

Bah. Merrill was wrong.
Maretheri was too, but 2 wrongs simply don't make a right.

Question my logic at will. I'm fine with saying Merrill was wrong, because she was.

[Xilizhra]

Merrill may have been wrong about Audacity not wanting to kill her. Marethari ruined everything else.