545 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Merrill may have been wrong about Audacity not wanting to kill her. Marethari ruined everything else.

[jlb524]

TJPags wrote...

Question my logic at will. I'm fine with saying Merrill was wrong, because she was.

Wrong about what, exactly?

[General User]

jlb524 wrote...

I've always wondered how Marethari did the dreamer ritual without a crap ton of lyrium or blood magic.

Maybe she's a spit mage XD

She says she uses 'Somniari' arts...whatever that is.  But like Forst says, no evidence either way...but I like your thoughts, dafangirl.  I agree and think the ancient elves were the first to use blood magic but we have no way of knowing that for a fact right now.

General User wrote...
Merrill should care less about the elves and more about elves.

Ah, but she indeed does.  She initially wanted to study the eluvian not for the purpose of restoring a lost artifact for 'the elves' but to help find Tamlen and to possibly understand what happened to the Dalish Warden, if you did that Origin.  Who knows?  Perhaps the mirror taint will have unforseen affects on the Dalish Warden down the road?  ...but anyway, that was Merrill's original purpose for studying the eluvian.  She was doing all this for specific individuals that were in her clan.  I think both Merrill and Marethari, initially, had an emotional response to what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel....both were affected deeply by the loss of their clanmembers.  Merrill wanted to confront the issue and learn more about what happened to them...Marethari simply wanted to move on.

At some point in time, Merrill realizes that Tamlen is a lost cause and, if the Warden is Dalish, that the mighty Hero of Ferelden doesn't need her help anymore so at this point she decides that it will still be worthwhile to study the eluvian for 'the elves' and try to restore a piece of history that they've all lost.  I've always wondered when she decided to change her reason for studying the mirror...if it happened before she leaves with Hawke for Kirkwall or sometime afterwards and before Act 2.  We don't know.

I really like that perspective.  That being the case, I have to wonder if Merrill herself knows.  Dosen't she cry out something to the effect of "Where did it all go wrong?!?" after Marethari dies?

Modifié par General User, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:36 .

[jlb524]

Knows what, exactly?

Right after Marethari dies, Merrill says something to the affect of not wanting Marethari to die because of her and wishes she would have listened to her (on the friend path). I'm sure Merrill's dialog differs here on the rival path.

Later on outside the cave, she states that she would have died in Marethari's place if she could (this happens if you convince Fenarel to stand down).

Modifié par jlb524, 04 novembre 2011 - 01:13 .

[dragonflight288]

There are two modern philosophies that seem to conflict in Merrill's story. One philosophy is all about ideals and intentions. So and so intended such so they cannot possibly be a bad/good person. Another philosophy is about results only. Doesn't matter that such and such wanted it, what happened made it wrong-period.

People in one camp of Merrill fans (I'm including anti-Merrill's here. If you weren't a fan of complaining about her, you wouldn't be here, lol) see only the destruction of her clan and all the tragedy that hit her and those around her. Therefore what she did was wrong and horrible, morally reprehensible. She must be stupid or something to go into such tragedy blindly. (Utilitarianism philosophy)

Then there are the people who see her intentions. What she's doing may benefit her clan, her entire race for the better. She may just give them fancy telephones but then they would have the most efficient communication system in Thedas. The people would have a far greater knowledge of lost lore and artifacts based on what Merrill learned while rebuilding an Eluvian from a shard and a butt-load of research. She has principles and she's following them and let the consequences come what may. (Kant...ish.)

But like a sociology professor I had once said. If we take multiple viewpoints and give them a color (example: Marxist is red, but economic views are green) and then focus only on that one view or color, you will miss the rest of the painting's colors and implications...so to speak.

That's why I played each character down a friendship path and a rivalry path just to see for myself the full implications that may or may not be there.

What I know is pretty simple. Merrill was trying to fulfill what the Dalish are about. Merethari was scared of the Eluvian. They had an academic disagreement. Nothing more. That's how the whole fiasco started out.

Merrill left of her own free will. She was no longer bound to the clan.

Merethari kept trying to tell Merrill to come back, it's not too late-even though the clan hates Merrill for fear of her bringing back the darkspawn taint and for being a blood mage. Pol was even more scared of Merrill than he was of the Varterral. Anyone who knows Merrill would know she would have done nothing to him but maybe make a frowny face.

Merrill researched the Eluvian. And she constantly argued she was doing her duty.

Merethari says the mirror led Merrill to blood magic and that it cost them Tamlen and potential-Warden. She warns the clan that Merrill may bring back the taint-from an object which is no longer tainted.

Merrill knows she doesn't know enough, so when she returns to the demon for knowledge, she brings Hawke along to kill her should things go awry.

Merethari rushes up and imprisons the demon then gives a claim about the demon's plan without any evidence to support the claim. Then said demon proceeds to try and kill Hawke and company. Then tries to trick them into believing it's dead (by playing on Merrill's pride. "You are so much stronger than I ever believed dah'len") If we believe it, it stabs Merrill and the fight continues. If we don't, Merrill kills the Keeper.

All this are events in-game. There is no speculation, no codex entries to look up. Just events that we all can see. Is Merill right or wrong? That depends entirely on philosophical views.

[TEWR]

megski wrote...


Honestly, I wonder what good a restored Eluvian would do. What if it was some phenomenal device that cured all the worlds ills? I'm just wondering that if restoring the Eluvian was a good thing how long would it take for it to be destroyed, taken away, etc. There are so many unknown things about them, I'm not sure if it's worth the risk to actually use it.

All knowledge is potentially dangerous. I could work on building something new but it may have horrifying ramifications in the future. This is what many things that we've invented have been.

The atom bomb, cell phones, missiles, cars, etc.

All of them have their good uses and their bad uses. No one could've forseen how they would be used by the future, but this is something we learn from. We don't forget it because of a few bad incidents. Families lose loved ones all the time to various circumstances. Do we ask that cars be taken away from society because a pick-up truck rolled down the hill into traffic after little Jimmy stole the truck and got himself killed? No. We mourn, we grieve, and we move on and learn from the experience.

You learn from the past so you can better understand the future. If it turns out the Eluvians are dangerous -- something I highly doubt -- then the Elves can make a mental note that they shouldn't be used because they can't control them at this point like Arlathan's Elves could.

Besides, we know that the Tevinter Imperium used blood magic on the Eluvians and managed to unlock their communicative powers, that Tamlen was able to see a city underground and the Eluvian acted like Morrigan's did, even though it was tainted, and that Morrigan made hers act like a portal.

I'm wondering if the Eluvian was tainted but the place it showed wasn't, and that when Tamlen activated it the taint just sort of spread forth from the Eluvian like a bomb. Like a massive surge of power made the taint within the Eluvian spreadable.

Hope that made sense.

megski wrote...

The only problem with that though is that the only thing anyone knows about the Eluvian is that it sucked Tamlen in, never to be seen again.

 

Well, a Dalish Warden can find Tamlen again. You would think he/she would tell the Sabrae clan about that.

 It isn't going to be a huge moral boost if everyone is terrified of it.  Even then it didn't get finished, which was a huge bummer for me.  I am also disappointed in that we never really find out what Merrill learned about it either, which I think would have helped motivate the players to participate (or not to) in Merrill's plight.  

We do learn that Merrill knows it was used as a fancy telephone between Elven cities and that she can sense the power within it. We're also able to encourage her on the friendship path to keep studying the Eluvian.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[General User]

jlb524 wrote...

Knows what, exactly?

When she decided to change her reason for studying the mirror.

(if it was a "decision" at all)

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[AlexXIV]

dragonflight288 wrote...

All this are events in-game. There is no speculation, no codex entries to look up. Just events that we all can see. Is Merill right or wrong? That depends entirely on philosophical views.

Not really. Because, as it was mentioned before, it was the Keeper's fault that she got possessed, not Merrill's. Of course you can say it was Merrill who should have stopped her reasearch. As you can say it was Hawke who shouldn't unearth ancient lyrium idols. I mean just because you start a chain reaction or are part of it doesn't give you the biggest chunk of blame. Merrill's actions ALONE did not have any negative consequence for anyone. It took the Keeper's foolishness to make things worse. And that's really all she ever did. She made things worse for everyone which didn't have to be a problem at all, or at least only for Merrill.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 novembre 2011 - 01:59 .

[Joy Divison]

TJPags wrote...

Bah. Merrill was wrong.
Maretheri was too, but 2 wrongs simply don't make a right.

No, but 3 rights make a left

[jlb524]

dragonflight288 wrote...
People in one camp of Merrill fans (I'm including anti-Merrill's here. If you weren't a fan of complaining about her, you wouldn't be here, lol) see only the destruction of her clan and all the tragedy that hit her and those around her. Therefore what she did was wrong and horrible, morally reprehensible. She must be stupid or something to go into such tragedy blindly. (Utilitarianism philosophy)

Then there are the people who see her intentions. What she's doing may benefit her clan, her entire race for the better. She may just give them fancy telephones but then they would have the most efficient communication system in Thedas. The people would have a far greater knowledge of lost lore and artifacts based on what Merrill learned while rebuilding an Eluvian from a shard and a butt-load of research. She has principles and she's following them and let the consequences come what may. (Kant...ish.)

Pretty much (I'm in the latter category).

I personally have issues with the first way of thinking because it depends solely on the outcome.  People with that view are just looking at how Merrill's quest ended...I think that's limiting.  Just because it didn't go as Merrill wished doesn't mean she went into it blindly or was stupid.

I'm guessing that if Merrill's project succeeded no one would give her heck for learning blood magic, going against her clans wishes, etc.?  She would all of a sudden become smart and awesome?

General User wrote...

When she decided to change her reason for studying the mirror.

(if it was a "decision" at all)

We have no idea when that happened.  We only know that it did happen sometime before Act 2.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 novembre 2011 - 03:32 .

[Gabey5]

Merril is a naive idiot. Throughout the game we see the horrors of blood magic ripping people apart far more skilled and more powerful than her. That demons will lie to use you to get in to this world. Yet she still carries on thinking this one mirror will change everything and that the demon is totally telling the truth.


Marethari did not want merril to die, and she knew she would continue down the path of self destruction so she took the bullet for her.

Modifié par Gabey5, 04 novembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Forst1999]

Gabey5 wrote...

Merril is a naive idiot. Throughout the game we see the horrors of blood magic ripping people apart far more skilled and more powerful than her. That demons will lie to use you to get in to this world. Yet she still carries on thinking this one mirror will change everything and that the demon is totally telling the truth.


Marethari did not want merril to die, and she knew she would continue down the path of self destruction so she took the bullet for her.

Except that the only bad thing that is related to the blood magic itself was Pol's death. And even that could have been avoided, if Marethari hadn't made such a clamor about it.

[General User]

Has anyone considered the interpretation that Marethari never did "poison" the Clan against Merrill, and that Pol was just an idiot?

[Forst1999]

She admits that she gave warnings about Merrill bringing back the taint and her blood magic. But yes, i think that for Pol his Andrastian upbringing was the key factor for running into his death. Just wanted to say that Marethari's exaggerated warnings certainly didn't help.

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...

Has anyone considered the interpretation that Marethari never did "poison" the Clan against Merrill, and that Pol was just an idiot?

Yes but we dismissed that claim.

[jlb524]

General User wrote...
Has anyone considered the interpretation that Marethari never did "poison" the Clan against Merrill, and that Pol was just an idiot?

The dialog between Marethari and Merrill doesn't support that claim.

Merrill asks Marethari why Pol was afraid of her and why the clan gave her the evil eye.  Marethari replies that this is because she told them that Merrill will bring back the taint from the mirror to the clan (even though Merrill isn't in the damn clan anymore and the mirror was purged of the taint) and she goes on to state that they believe this because she told them all this.

Though, right after Pol dies, you should try the Aggressive response and call Pol a 'coward' and see how Merrill responds to you.  :innocent:

[General User]

jlb524 wrote...

General User wrote...
Has anyone considered the interpretation that Marethari never did "poison" the Clan against Merrill, and that Pol was just an idiot?

The dialog between Marethari and Merrill doesn't support that claim.

Merrill asks Marethari why Pol was afraid of her and why the clan gave her the evil eye.  Marethari replies that this is because she told them that Merrill will bring back the taint from the mirror to the clan (even though Merrill isn't in the damn clan anymore and the mirror was purged of the taint) and she goes on to state that they believe this because she told them all this.

Those two versions ain't exactly mutally exculsive.

Merrill was consorting with a demon and obsessed with a forbidden artifact.  If I were in that Clan, and I had children, I certainly have told them to stay away from her too!

The thing about idiots is that, well... they're idiots.  Just because you give an idiot a moderate or reasonable warning doesn't guarantee that they'll interperate it in a reasonable way, or react to your warning in a reasonable manner when under stress.

jlb524 wrote...
Though, right after Pol dies, you should try the Aggressive response and call Pol a 'coward' and see how Merrill responds to you.  :innocent:

umm... can you give me the digest version? 

Besides, why would anyone call Pol a coward in the first place?

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:34 .

[dragonflight288]

Not really. Because, as it was mentioned before, it was the Keeper's fault that she got possessed, not Merrill's. Of course you can say it was Merrill who should have stopped her reasearch. As you can say it was Hawke who shouldn't unearth ancient lyrium idols. I mean just because you start a chain reaction or are part of it doesn't give you the biggest chunk of blame. Merrill's actions ALONE did not have any negative consequence for anyone. It took the Keeper's foolishness to make things worse. And that's really all she ever did. She made things worse for everyone which didn't have to be a problem at all, or at least only for Merrill.

I happen to agree with you. There was a lot more factoring in there than Merrill wanting to research the eluvian. The dalish were fed up with sundermount and that they weren't leaving. Templars were torturing their non-mage hunters to get information on apostates. They were receiving veiled threats to convert to the Chant of Light or die. There is the general prejudice against elves, and how the Dalish seem to hate everyone who isn't Dalish (they mistrust even a non-dalish warden, but are more respectful because he or she is a warden.)

But there are some people determined to lay all the blame on Merrill's shoulders. Their view is more philosophical, but limited because it won't look at all these other factors.

[General User]

Knocking over the first domino by accident is alot different than knocking it over on purpose.

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...

Knocking over the first domino by accident is alot different than knocking it over on purpose.

And that's what speaks for Merrill. She didn't mean the Keeper or anyone to die. Could she have foreseen the keeper letting herself possess by the demon? I don't think anyone could. I for one was surprised at the very least. Merrill thought that the keeper warned her from the demon, not from keepers doing foolish things in order to protect her. If she had told Merrill to stop or she would let herself be possessed by the demon then Merrill would have reacted differently, and so would the clan. That's why Marethari didn't tell anyone. It's clear to see who is the liar, schemer and deceiver. It's not Merrill. You can't say that she ever lied or tricked anyone.

[dragonflight288]

Let me go back to Act 2. The scene where Merrill invokes a Dalish right to gain possession of the Arulen'holm. Merrill asks to have it, and is willing to do whatever is needed to get it. Merethari gives a task to Merrill. Track down the Varterral and slay it.

Merrill and Hawke do so. Then Merethari tries to back out on the deal and the dalish right. She gives it to Hawke instead and asks Hawke to NOT give it to Merrill when she told Merrill point-blank she would give it to her.

[Heimdall]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Let me go back to Act 2. The scene where Merrill invokes a Dalish right to gain possession of the Arulen'holm. Merrill asks to have it, and is willing to do whatever is needed to get it. Merethari gives a task to Merrill. Track down the Varterral and slay it.

Merrill and Hawke do so. Then Merethari tries to back out on the deal and the dalish right. She gives it to Hawke instead and asks Hawke to NOT give it to Merrill when she told Merrill point-blank she would give it to her.

I don't really understand why this is a strike against Marethari...  All it shows is that she wanted to protect Merrill from what Merrill was trying to do, even if it meant violating Dalish rites.

Am I the only one that doesn't disbelieve Marethari's story by default?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 novembre 2011 - 12:55 .

[dragonflight288]

I don't really understand why this is a strike against Marethari... All it shows is that she wanted to protect Merrill from what Merrill was trying to do, even if it meant violating Dalish rites.

Am I the only one that doesn't disbelieve Marethari's story by default?

Not everything I say is against Merethari. It's not one or the other.

I was illustrating that Merethari and Merrill made a deal. Merethari told Merrill before going to the Varterral that she would give her the tool. When Merrill kept her end of the bargain, Merethari broke the deal.

Why she did it is one thing, but she still broke a deal. Nothing more, nothing less.

I put my trust in the one who keeps their deals and does research. My opinion and nothing more.

[Heimdall]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't really understand why this is a strike against Marethari... All it shows is that she wanted to protect Merrill from what Merrill was trying to do, even if it meant violating Dalish rites.

Am I the only one that doesn't disbelieve Marethari's story by default?

Not everything I say is against Merethari. It's not one or the other.

I was illustrating that Merethari and Merrill made a deal. Merethari told Merrill before going to the Varterral that she would give her the tool. When Merrill kept her end of the bargain, Merethari broke the deal.

Why she did it is one thing, but she still broke a deal. Nothing more, nothing less.

I put my trust in the one who keeps their deals and does research. My opinion and nothing more.

Fine.  I just don't have faith Merrill actually knows what she's doing, given most of her research is given to her by a demon.  That Marethari was willing to break that deal I see as a sign of the depth of her care, beyond concern for Dalish rites or personal honor, not untrustworthiness.  All opinion.

[Xilizhra]

I see it as her falling further under Audacity's influence, believing that she knows better than Merrill so much as to outright betray her here.