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Marethari is more at fault than Merrill is.


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#451
dragonflight288

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Fine. I just don't have faith Merrill actually knows what she's doing, given most of her research is given to her by a demon. That Marethari was willing to break that deal I see as a sign of the depth of her care, beyond concern for Dalish rites or personal honor, not untrustworthiness. All opinion.


And an opinion I can respect. We don't see any in-game evidence that Merrill was doing something that wasn't coming from a demon. David Gaider did say that she researched Dalish Lore and examined the eluvian shard in order to rebuild the Eluvian.

In game evidence of that....not really.

I take Gaider's word and the use of in-game evidence.

Since you see Merethari in one light, there's nothing wrong with that. I saw it too. I respectfully disagreed with her opinions, but I saw it.

Glad we can have cordial discussions on this.

I see it as her falling further under Audacity's influence, believing that she knows better than Merrill so much as to outright betray her here.


I think Audacity was playing them both. Any in-game evidence of it...no. But I doubt the demon is stupid enough to not create more than one potential escape route.

#452
Xilizhra

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I think Audacity was playing them both. Any in-game evidence of it...no. But I doubt the demon is stupid enough to not create more than one potential escape route.

I think Audacity just gave up on Merrill as a potential minion and decided to turn Marethari into one, with first priority of killing Merrill.

#453
jlb524

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General User wrote...
Those two versions ain't exactly mutally exculsive.

Merrill was consorting with a demon and obsessed with a forbidden artifact.  If I were in that Clan, and I had children, I certainly have told them to stay away from her too!

The thing about idiots is that, well... they're idiots.  Just because you give an idiot a moderate or reasonable warning doesn't guarantee that they'll interperate it in a reasonable way, or react to your warning in a reasonable manner when under stress.


The point still stands that Pol isn't an idiot and ran because he heard something about Merrill from Marethari.

The point still stands that Marethari was talking about Merrill to the clan.  Some things she said were the truth but some were falsehoods or thing that were blown out of proportion.

General User wrote...

Besides, why would anyone call Pol a coward in the first place?


Merrill just gets angry and gets in Hawke's face.  

Aggro!Hawke can be a b*tch sometimes.

#454
dragonflight288

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I think Audacity just gave up on Merrill as a potential minion and
decided to turn Marethari into one, with first priority of killing
Merrill.


That would explain why believing the Demon gets Merrill stabbed in the fight.

Ah well, theories galore. Lots of fun.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 05 novembre 2011 - 02:21 .


#455
Xilizhra

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dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Audacity just gave up on Merrill as a potential minion and
decided to turn Marethari into one, with first priority of killing
Merrill.


That would explain why believing the Demon gets Merrill stabbed in the fight.

Ah well, theories galore. Lots of fun.

Certainly, Audacity could have just left...

#456
Heimdall

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jlb524 wrote...

The point still stands that Pol isn't an idiot and ran because he heard something about Merrill from Marethari.

The point still stands that Marethari was talking about Merrill to the clan.  Some things she said were the truth but some were falsehoods or thing that were blown out of proportion.

Well, Marethari warned the clan that Merrill was using blood magic, consorting with demons, and trying to restore an artifact that had previously killed two clan members with the help of that demon.  I don't think blowing things out of proportion was an issue.  Pol used to be a city elf.  He grew up with the chantry line on blood magic (EVIL! Maleficar!) and demons.  His reaction was more due to those prejudices than falsehood on Marethari's part it seems to me.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:17 .


#457
General User

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...or he was just an idiot.

Modifié par General User, 05 novembre 2011 - 05:09 .


#458
Xilizhra

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Lord Aesir wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The point still stands that Pol isn't an idiot and ran because he heard something about Merrill from Marethari.

The point still stands that Marethari was talking about Merrill to the clan.  Some things she said were the truth but some were falsehoods or thing that were blown out of proportion.

Well, Marethari warned the clan that Merrill was using blood magic, consorting with demons, and trying to restore an artifact that had previously killed two clan members with the help of that demon.  I don't think blowing things out of proportion was an issue.  Pol used to be a city elf.  He grew up with the chantry line on blood magic (EVIL! Maleficar!) and demons.  His reaction was more due to those prejudices than falsehood on Marethari's part it seems to me.

If Marethari said "consorting," as in still doing it, then that was a lie.

#459
LobselVith8

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Xilizhra wrote...

If Marethari said "consorting," as in still doing it, then that was a lie.


It's odd that Marethari has positioned the members of the clan against Merrill so strongly, but tries to convince her to come back to the clan despite the fact that her fellow Dalish now seem to hate and despise her now. I wonder how the other clans across Thedas would feel about Merrill in the narrative where Merrill aids a pro-mage Hawke against the templars, considering the negative history that exists between the Dalish and the templars. I'd imagine that, without the influence of Keeper Marethari, they may have a different reaction to the news of a Dalish mage taking on the templars at the seat of their power over eastern Thedas.

It's possible to have an alternative view of Merrill than the one Marethari espouses. Merrill spoke with Audacity when he was imprisoned in the totem, she has used blood magic proficiently and never abused her power for years, and she is building an Eluvian with a shard she successfully cleansed.

#460
AlexXIV

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General User wrote...

...or he was just an idiot.

He was portrayed as one. Honestly, he is in a cave full of giant spiders and worse monsters and is lucky enough to run into a group of humanoids and he has nothing better to do than running away. And at that from someone that he knows since the dalish origin in DA:O. I still remember my Warden joking about sacrificing himPosted Image

Sorry but unless he was on drugs or indoctrinated, his reacion doesn't even make sense. Especially he should know Hawke by now. I mean I can't believe that not everyone in the clan who knew Merrill also knew about her going with Hawke. It's just a silly story arc that makes no sense. I mean what is he even doing in there if he is such a coward? And how did he manage to run from the chantry to the dalish in the first place if he is such a coward? Sense ... missing ... at all.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 novembre 2011 - 07:16 .


#461
TEWR

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Lord Aesir wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The point still stands that Pol isn't an idiot and ran because he heard something about Merrill from Marethari.

The point still stands that Marethari was talking about Merrill to the clan.  Some things she said were the truth but some were falsehoods or thing that were blown out of proportion.

Well, Marethari warned the clan that Merrill was using blood magic, consorting with demons, and trying to restore an artifact that had previously killed two clan members with the help of that demon.  I don't think blowing things out of proportion was an issue.  Pol used to be a city elf.  He grew up with the chantry line on blood magic (EVIL! Maleficar!) and demons.  His reaction was more due to those prejudices than falsehood on Marethari's part it seems to me.


Except those first things -- blood magic, interacting with a demon on two instances, and the Eluvian restoration -- were things that the clan already knew because of how they acted when she was leaving. You know, the clan guy saying "Be quick about it shemlen. We cannot be rid of this one soon enough!"

She tells Merrill and Hawke that what she said was about Merrill bringing the taint back from a shard that was cleansed. If the taint was still present Anders would've been able to sense it and say so.

Many in the clan fear you'll bring back the taint. Or worse -- Marethari

And where did they get that idea? -- Merrill

It was my duty. -- Marethari


That's why Pol ran. He already knew about what Merrill was doing but Marethari set the clan against her by spreading things about the taint that were no longer true. Warning the clan is fine. Warning them about things Marethari already knew weren't true -- since Merrill says that they've been over the Eluvian being cleansed before -- isn't fine.

And don't even get me started on the audacity Marethari had when she told Merrill she should return to a clan that now hated her with a fierce passion and fear her more than a crazed Varterral. Yea.... anyone who thinks that life in the clan would've just gone back to normal had Merrill returned then is deluding themselves into being in an idealistic world.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:44 .


#462
Crow_22

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Agreed, Ethereal. Marethari knew of Merrill's love for the clan and how sensitive she was to sudden changes (as you find out in the game, she's not like other elves lol). The Elves are more at fault than she herself, he reasons were just to turn to Blood Magic.

Marethari, even though I understand she was trying to make Merrill turn away from Blood Magic, did the exact opposite, she left Merrill with nothing BUT Blood Magic by turning her entire family, the clan, against her. Weither she regreted this or not, I don't know, but I agree that if Marethari took a more kinder approach and protected Merrill instead of doing what she did, then Merrill could have turned from Blood Magic, or better yet; find a way to control it wisely without the risk of demons possessing her, thus protecting her clan.

#463
Gervaise

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Just a small point. The Vatarell is normally meant to be okay with elves but Merrill admits something seems to have upset it. The elven spirits on the mountain are also upset, again she says something must be causing this. Now I'm not saying that Merrill is necessarily the cause but it might seem that way to the clan. So Pol goes into the caves with the hunters and they are killed, possibly by creatures that should normally be okay with them or by spirits of the dead. May be he knows from his Chantry teaching or from Marethari that blood magic can be used to raise spirits or its effects allow creatures to cross from the Fade and inhabit corpses. She may even have linked it to the demon that Merrill was using. Then as he tries to make his way out, he runs into Merrill and thinks she is the cause of the problems the hunters encountered and thus responsible for their death and he is next, so he runs.

Audacity may well have something to do with the unrest on the mountain - he is clearly a powerful demon since earlier elves/humans (we don't know which) preferred to bind him than simply kill him. May be they thought he could do less damage that way, his influence being confined to a particular area rather than having the run of the Fade. After all, who is responsible for the ghosts of the clan who appear during the fight with him?

#464
esper

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@gervaise.
Audcacity was summoned doing a war, he was not killed because he was too powerfull, he was not killed because either Tevinter or the acient elves thought they could use him.

Now Mathari couldn't kill him, which indeed hints that he is powerfull (but he is a pride demon, nobody should fight those alone). As for the ghost of the clan, I thought they were just an illusion since the clan isn't death yet.

I do think that Audacity exitense could have something to do with the weak veil. It is not too far out there to think that someone used a terrible blood retual to summon him in the first place.

#465
ReiSilver

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Gervaise wrote...

Just a small point. The Vatarell is normally meant to be okay with elves but Merrill admits something seems to have upset it. The elven spirits on the mountain are also upset, again she says something must be causing this. Now I'm not saying that Merrill is necessarily the cause but it might seem that way to the clan. So Pol goes into the caves with the hunters and they are killed, possibly by creatures that should normally be okay with them or by spirits of the dead. May be he knows from his Chantry teaching or from Marethari that blood magic can be used to raise spirits or its effects allow creatures to cross from the Fade and inhabit corpses. She may even have linked it to the demon that Merrill was using. Then as he tries to make his way out, he runs into Merrill and thinks she is the cause of the problems the hunters encountered and thus responsible for their death and he is next, so he runs.

Audacity may well have something to do with the unrest on the mountain - he is clearly a powerful demon since earlier elves/humans (we don't know which) preferred to bind him than simply kill him. May be they thought he could do less damage that way, his influence being confined to a particular area rather than having the run of the Fade. After all, who is responsible for the ghosts of the clan who appear during the fight with him?


There is one other Vatarell that we as players know of that attacked a dalish elf which is apparently 'out of character' for it.
This Vatarell and the one in DA2 have a common thread: An Eluvian in there area.
We don't know exactly how Eluvians work, Merrill doesn't know how they work, Merathari doesn't know how they work. We do know: They can absorb the darkspawn Taint, they can be used to communicate and they can be used to travel, possibly interdenominationally.
If this is why the Vatarell goes kill-happy it would make sense and it would give weight to Merathari's logical warnings that the mirror has too many unknown variables to it and is thus too dangerous.

And for all the people saying that Merathari would have had to lie, go play the Dalish origin again because I have recently, after Mahariel comes back from the cave a second time one of the hunters will comment that they should: burn down the cave the Mirror was found in because it has bought them nothing but pain. The whole clan already had enough bad feelings about that mirror, I don't believe Merathari did anything but tell them the truth when they asked. And saying "Oh but Merrill cleansed it so it's all fine and peachy now. The clan would have no reason to be against it." doesn't cut it, Merrill may be trying to control the mirror and use it for good and all, but that thing tore two members of the clan, the family, away. I wouldn't want anything to do with it and hearing that your sister wants to mess with it, against the express wishes of your elder, and would voluntarily leave the clan and her responsibilities* to do so? Yeah, I'd be feeling pretty angry and even a little betrayed too.

* and before anyone says she's doing her job as Keeper in leaving the clan to fix the mirror:
"-And Tamlen remains missing. He is more important then any lore in those ruins"
Quote from Merathari during the Dalish origin, play through that and you'll see how important each member of the clan is and that keeping everyone alive is of upmost importance, from the way Mahariel can be yelled at for going off alone with Tamlen into the ruins, to how the clan members being relieved at your recovery and worried for Tamlen, to Merrill telling you off for trying to bring Fenarel on a dangerous search for Tamlen without the Keeper's permission. Which is kind of priceless in hindsight:

Merrill: You want to risk Fenarel getting hurt? Or worse?
Fenarel: I should decide whether I’m willing to risk it or not.
Merrill: Go tell the Keeper that then.

#466
Heimdall

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
She tells Merrill and Hawke that what she said was about Merrill bringing the taint back from a shard that was cleansed. If the taint was still present Anders would've been able to sense it and say so.

Well I was just playing through this part of the game and this was brought to my attention.  Merrill cleansed the shard with a blood magic ritual she learned from the demon.  She tells you flat out if you ask.  I'm having serious doubts about it's effectiveness given that, but I think Marethari and the clan have more than enough reason to not trust it knowing that.

#467
Xilizhra

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Just a small point. The Vatarell is normally meant to be okay with elves but Merrill admits something seems to have upset it. The elven spirits on the mountain are also upset, again she says something must be causing this. Now I'm not saying that Merrill is necessarily the cause but it might seem that way to the clan.

I personally have wondered if Marethari was the one who set it off, to try and kill Hawke and Merrill in a covert way. Either that, or Audacity directly.

If this is why the Vatarell goes kill-happy it would make sense and it would give weight to Merathari's logical warnings that the mirror has too many unknown variables to it and is thus too dangerous.

Iffy. If anything, it's better to study the thing so that we know how to deal with any problems they might cause early on, and not get rid of valuable historical artifacts.

The whole clan already had enough bad feelings about that mirror, I don't believe Merathari did anything but tell them the truth when they asked. And saying "Oh but Merrill cleansed it so it's all fine and peachy now. The clan would have no reason to be against it." doesn't cut it, Merrill may be trying to control the mirror and use it for good and all, but that thing tore two members of the clan, the family, away. I wouldn't want anything to do with it and hearing that your sister wants to mess with it, against the express wishes of your elder, and would voluntarily leave the clan and her responsibilities* to do so? Yeah, I'd be feeling pretty angry and even a little betrayed too.

You would, because you'd be emotional, which is understandable. But it's not based on logic.

Well I was just playing through this part of the game and this was brought to my attention. Merrill cleansed the shard with a blood magic ritual she learned from the demon. She tells you flat out if you ask. I'm having serious doubts about it's effectiveness given that, but I think Marethari and the clan have more than enough reason to not trust it knowing that.

The darkspawn taint hasn't spread from the Eluvian, and given how much Anders hates it and Merrill, he'd jump at the chance to tell Hawke about the taint if there was any there. I wouldn't even put it past him to lie about it. The fact that he says nothing speaks much.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:11 .


#468
Heimdall

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Xilizhra wrote...

Well I was just playing through this part of the game and this was brought to my attention. Merrill cleansed the shard with a blood magic ritual she learned from the demon. She tells you flat out if you ask. I'm having serious doubts about it's effectiveness given that, but I think Marethari and the clan have more than enough reason to not trust it knowing that.

The darkspawn taint hasn't spread from the Eluvian, and given how much Anders hates it and Merrill, he'd jump at the chance to tell Hawke about the taint if there was any there. I wouldn't even put it past him to lie about it. The fact that he says nothing speaks much.

Doesn't mean the completed mirror won't be able to.  I don't recall the mirror in the dalish origin spreading the taint after it was broken.  Not really my point though, just that the cleansing really isn't something that the dalish and Marethari have much reason to trust or see as a point in Merrill's favor.

#469
Xilizhra

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Merrill repaired it by Act 3 and it still didn't do anything. Plus, the reason the broken mirror didn't do anything is that no one was in close contact with it; the shards were still tainted, though no longer magically powered, as Merrill would have had to have sensed something there to cleanse it.

#470
Heimdall

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Xilizhra wrote...

Merrill repaired it by Act 3 and it still didn't do anything. Plus, the reason the broken mirror didn't do anything is that no one was in close contact with it; the shards were still tainted, though no longer magically powered, as Merrill would have had to have sensed something there to cleanse it.

She couldn't fix it completely, that's why she went to visit the demon in the first place in Act 3.  It's unclear exactly how the taint infected the mirror, or how the taint even works when infecting a magical item.  If the broken mirror required close contact I don't see how it could have spread the taint in the alienage anyway, Merril was the only one who ever interacted with it.

At any rate, I suspect the cleansing ritual Audacity taught Merrill was actually a method of preparing the mirror, specifically altering it's purpose to allow him to pass through.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 novembre 2011 - 04:00 .


#471
jlb524

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Crow_22 wrote...
Weither she regreted this or not, I don't know, but I agree that if Marethari took a more kinder approach and protected Merrill instead of doing what she did, then Merrill could have turned from Blood Magic, or better yet; find a way to control it wisely without the risk of demons possessing her, thus protecting her clan.


I think the saying, "If you love someone, let them go." applies in a way.  Marethari didn't follow this rule.

#472
Xilizhra

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She couldn't fix it completely, that's why she went to visit the demon in the first place in Act 3. It's unclear exactly how the taint infected the mirror, or how the taint even works when infecting a magical item. If the broken mirror required close contact I don't see how it could have spread the taint in the alienage anyway, Merril was the only one who ever interacted with it.

Anders would still have been able to detect it. Duncan certainly could.

At any rate, I suspect the cleansing ritual Audacity taught Merrill was actually a method of preparing the mirror, specifically altering it's purpose to allow him to pass through.

Unlikely. I doubt the Fade could ever really link with the mirror; I think that was just Audacity screwing with Merrill's head.

#473
Heimdall

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Xilizhra wrote...

She couldn't fix it completely, that's why she went to visit the demon in the first place in Act 3. It's unclear exactly how the taint infected the mirror, or how the taint even works when infecting a magical item. If the broken mirror required close contact I don't see how it could have spread the taint in the alienage anyway, Merril was the only one who ever interacted with it.

Anders would still have been able to detect it. Duncan certainly could.

  When was Anders even near it?  It's not as if he frequented the alienage.  Did Duncan detect it from a mile away even when it was broken?  I don't really have much faith in Anders abilities to detect such things, Duncan had decades to hone his senses and was close to his Calling.

At any rate, I suspect the cleansing ritual Audacity taught Merrill was actually a method of preparing the mirror, specifically altering it's purpose to allow him to pass through.

Unlikely. I doubt the Fade could ever really link with the mirror; I think that was just Audacity screwing with Merrill's head.

It didn't seem to have a problem giving Tamlen a nice veiw of the Black City.  This is a magic artifact we're talking about.  All magic save darkspawn magic which draws on the taint is related to the Fade.  It isn't a far stretch at all that Audacity could have the mirror's purpose altered to suit his.

#474
jlb524

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You can take Anders to Merrill's house when you get the 'Mirror Image' quest and he'll actually comment on the mirror.  He even gets near it.

Lord Aesir wrote...
It didn't seem to have a problem giving Tamlen a nice veiw of the Black City.  This is a magic artifact we're talking about.  All magic save darkspawn magic which draws on the taint is related to the Fade.  It isn't a far stretch at all that Audacity could have the mirror's purpose altered to suit his.


Yes, it's magic.  Yes it's dangerous.  Yes, people keep repeating this like we don't know that this is the case.  Merrill knows this as well.

No one refutes this.

Some feel that magic should be carefully studied instead of feared so thus believe Merrill is justified.

I could make an analogy to nature.  You can either fear natural forces and try to avoid them, or study them to better understand how they work.  The latter method might put the individual scientist at risk (like, tornado hunters for instance) but the knowledge gained can lead to a better understanding of these things in the future so people can deal with them safely.

#475
Xilizhra

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You can take Anders to Merrill's house when you get the 'Mirror Image' quest and he'll actually comment on the mirror. He even gets near it.

This.

It didn't seem to have a problem giving Tamlen a nice veiw of the Black City. This is a magic artifact we're talking about. All magic save darkspawn magic which draws on the taint is related to the Fade. It isn't a far stretch at all that Audacity could have the mirror's purpose altered to suit his.

Possibly. Assuming, of course, that the Black City is even in the Fade, since entering it bodily is impossible without a ****load of lyrium and blood. And that a demon could somehow create a hole to leave its prison from inside it using a totally different artifact. It still is rather a stretch for several reasons.