545 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Indeed. However you can't honestly expect people to trust in something they have no reliable source on when it could endanger everyone.

Perhaps not, but it's still an error.

Which is valid after she meets Anders. She was playing with that thing long before Hawke showed up. The point still stands that Merrill trusts the word of a demon and takes 0 precautions to protect her clan while she's working on something potentially dangerous. They, and Marethari, are justified in worrying that she'll screw up and doom them all. It'd be no different than if I were to work on chemical weapons in my garage with no safety equipment. I may think it's safe, but I can't expect my neighbours to just accept it on my say so.

The danger strikes me as extremely potential.

So now Marethari is some kind of tyrant?

More or less.

[mcsupersport]

DPSSOC wrote...



Which is valid after she meets Anders.  She was playing with that thing long before Hawke showed up.  The point still stands that Merrill trusts the word of a demon and takes 0 precautions to protect her clan while she's working on something potentially dangerous.  They, and Marethari, are justified in worrying that she'll screw up and doom them all.  It'd be no different than if I were to work on chemical weapons in my garage with no safety equipment.  I may think it's safe, but I can't expect my neighbours to just accept it on my say so.

1)  You don't know what percautions she does or doesn't take, they aren't discussed.  You don't know what magical/physical protections she put around the Mirror while she was in the clan, with or without the help of Marethari.

2)  Who says she took the word of the demon on HOW to clense the taint, she more or less took the word on how to get the POWER to clense the taint.

3)  She spent years studying the mirror, a large portion of it AWAY from the clan.

4)  Marethari's job was to take the Elves and LEAVE a dangerous area, but for some unknown reason she NEVER did.  I personally think she was demon tainted on her first trip up the mountain with Merrill back when they arrived and thus was never going to do anything but work for the demon.

[megski]

Xilizhra wrote...

Indeed. However you can't honestly expect people to trust in something they have no reliable source on when it could endanger everyone.

Perhaps not, but it's still an error.

Which is valid after she meets Anders. She was playing with that thing long before Hawke showed up. The point still stands that Merrill trusts the word of a demon and takes 0 precautions to protect her clan while she's working on something potentially dangerous. They, and Marethari, are justified in worrying that she'll screw up and doom them all. It'd be no different than if I were to work on chemical weapons in my garage with no safety equipment. I may think it's safe, but I can't expect my neighbours to just accept it on my say so.

The danger strikes me as extremely potential.

So now Marethari is some kind of tyrant?

More or less.

Umm..yeah ok.  

[Jijan Dax]

Actually, I agree with the author of this post, but it's a very complex issue OR a very simple one (which is the power of Merrill's story actually). The issue can be broken down in an extraordinary large amount of things.

Firstly there's the emotional response from Tamlen vanishing and Mahariel dying (or Tamlen vanishing and the Warden surviving). It had a strong effect on the entire clan. Merrill's response was to try and help them, but it seems Marethari didn't want to lose anyone else (especially her First) to trying to figure out the Eluvian. You can also view this as an issue between young and old, where old wants to preserve and young wants to keep on going. There's merit here for both ideals.

Then there's the darkspawn taint. I think that from the origin story in DA:O we can safely assume that the mirror 'malfunctioned' because of the taint. What strikes me as peculiar is that Marethari doesn't recognize this. IF the taint can be removed ... won't the eluvian return to its original function?? Merrill wants to attempt it and we KNOW she would ask help from Marethari. Who refuses. So without help from the only other mage in the clan and without piles of Lyrium Merrill is left with only one choice ... learn blood magic.

This is where we need to ponder some more. Why does Marethari refuse?? Is it because she is fearful of her first? well ... why doesn't she help her eventually when Merrill would leave anyway. It might be because Marethari thinks that Merrill would come crawling back eventually. Which also explains why she kept the clan there for so long. I really do believe she loves her very much, like a daughter even ... it would be understandable.

You can also see that Merrill doesn't choose to learn blood magic for evil purposes, as she is often accused of by Anders, Fenris and just about everyone she meets. She wants to help Tamlen, she wants to help her people and well ... she's immensely curious (see the quote in act II where she ponders on where the mirror will show her.) In the entirety of her life Merrill has only placed one person PURPOSELY at risk: Herself. She has frequently stated she would have rather died than Marethari or Pol or anyone else. She also asks Hawke to kill her if she ever gets possessed. This leads me to believe she is TOO altruistic for her own good. The only selfish thing she ever does (and of course this only happens in some playthroughs) is when she follows her heart to be with Hawke. If the clan ever found out they'd freak ...

As for the danger the mirror poses. We know from DA:O that the Eluvian is both a communication and a transportation device, which according to Morrigan, goes 'beyond' the Fade. (thereby avoiding demons and stuff) Also the Elves of old used it safely for millenia. There's no way Merrill could have known that Audacity planned to step through that mirror. It's even safe to say that the only way Audacity was capable of doing it is because she/he is one of the only demons that ever saw its construction.

It's her innocence, her social ineptitude and her 'unique' way of looking at things that makes her seem like a totally unreliable mage. She might have some things wrong but most of the evidence does point to her being very, very careful. And her empathy and innocence is what keeps her from using her blood magic to drain power from or control another. (you can tell she's upset when she comes along with Fenris to hunt a magister in act II and sees how that mage sacrificed people for more power.) She is walking on the edge of a knife though.

As for Marethari's possession. Seeing that Merrill wouldn't listen to her I think she decided to find the source of where she gets instructions on how to fix the eluvian. (there is some evidence that Merrill is in contact with the demon.) and end it. So she breaks through the defenses at the top of sundermount and makes the ultimate sacrifice to keep Merrill safe. Knowing that, if she can't contact her demon she would check it out and eventually kill her. Apart from this being extremely risky, it's also based on her own sense of being right. As Marethari could only have been aware of the demon's plan to step through the eluvian AFTER she bound it to herself. (at which point of course marethari must have thought: Aha!! I was right). It's amazing that the demon is named Audacity and at this point I wonder. Does that refer to Merrill's audacity ... or Marethari's?? (or both!!)

I also wonder how marethari was able to accomplish this without using blood magic herself?? I have this suspicion that the elves of old used it as well. How else could they have withstood the tevinter imperium, which is solely made up of blood mages. although that might be how they lost or why Marethari hates blood magic so. As it was Tevinter that cast the old elves down. Anyway ...

In my humble opinion it seems that Merrill did the right thing, stayed true to her beliefs and did something risky but by taking every precaution she knows of. There's even a hint of sadness where, when she tells you she would never have been a great keeper you feel like *fixing the eluvian* is the only way she can ever make a true contribution to the people she loves and she wholly expects to die in the process. (if you are in a rival romance with her (and i don't recommend it as it is truly heartbreaking) she will say 'don't try to save me, I'm beyond saving' which enforces that idea) However, a series of unfortunate events, based on mistrust, misinformation and fear led to the death of pol, marethari (and depending on your actions the entire clan).

It could have been prevented if: Marethari helped Merrill from the start hence not force her into blood magic and maybe be able to fix the eluvian without demonic intervention. Not poison the clan against Merrill (this would have saved Pol) (I think that might have been a ploy as well to shame Merrill into abandoning everything and coming back). Not binding the demon but asking for help (I think Hawke and compaignons would be strong enough to drive audacity out. OR if Marethari had done nothing I'm certain Merrill would have asked Hawke to be present as she first activates the eluvian. Hence he would be able to keep her from harm ... or she might have died, not a very happy outcome.). We'll never know and of couse in hindsight it might have been best to leave the eluvian alone. But, making decisions in hindsight .... yeah ... that's putting effect before cause and that's cheating.

All this complexity is why I think this is one of THE best stories in Dragon Age. You can twist it either way or which BUT you can also boil it down to one very simple question.

"Do you trust Merrill?" Yes/No

-> and for those Hawke players who also romance her, care for her or have maxed out their friendship meters: That should be enough.

Modifié par Jijan Dax, 07 novembre 2011 - 11:23 .

[nightscrawl]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

... when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start.

Um no... Merril is one of those people who has to go to the school of hard knocks. She has to see/feel the bad consequences of her decisions in order to learn from them. No matter what was told to her throughout the entire game from Anders, from Fenris, from Hawke, from Marithari, she NEVER listened and never even considered the possibility that she was wrong.

One of the dialogue options after Marithari dies is to tell her that she knew the price when she started consorting with demons and using blood magic, to which she responds that "If there was a price to pay, I should have paid it." Even at that point she STILL does not get it. Hawke then has the option of telling her that she can't control the action of others, or something along those lines.

For some reason Merrill always seemed to beleive that her use of blood magic and her deal with a demon affected her only, but that was never the case. Even at the first moment she talked to the demon she had no idea what could have happened, and could not have guaranteed with certainty that her clan was still safe from her or from the demon itself.

Jijan Dax wrote...

You can twist it either way or which BUT you can also boil it down to one very simple question.

"Do you trust Merrill?" Yes/No

->
and for those Hawke players who also romance her, care for her or have
maxed out their friendship meters: That should be enough.

That is an interesting way to look at it.

Among my friends and family, trust is really important to my Hawke. Varric, Aveline, Fenris, and Sebastian never give me reason to doubt them. Isabella redeems herself after returning with the Tome, so I can forgive her for that. Until his quests in Act 3, Anders doesn't really give me a reason to distrust him persay (as by deception), but it is always in the back of my mind that there is a component of himself that he cannot control, which makes me wary; then he totally destroys my trust when he openly uses me to get his ingredients and has me decoy to plant them.

As far as Merrill is concerned, I trust her as a person. She never has deceived me as to her use of blood magic or in her manipulation of the mirror. But like Anders, there is a component of her that I cannot rely on because it is unpredictable and dangerous.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:04 .

[Jijan Dax]

As far as Merrill is concerned, I trust her as a person. She never has deceived me as to her use of blood magic or in her manipulation of the mirror. But like Anders, there is a component of her that I cannot rely on because it is unpredictable and dangerous.

Hmm, could it be that instead of 'a part of her that is unpredictable and dangerous' it's more like 'I'm afraid she'll fall into abuse of blood magic' ... because I can relate to the latter. However, like I said: I think her selflessness would always stop her from abusing blood magic. And she always has Hawke as a moral compass should she need it.

As for my Hawke (should you be interested), I've made him so he doesn't trust himself with blood magic, as he has too much power already (both magical and political, he is a mage himself). But he trusts Merrill with it for the reasons above. ... and it also provides a nice counterpoint to chantry dogma that way. They always claim blood magic is dangerous and that people who use it should be killed (often for a good reason, it IS dangerous as absolute power corrupts absolutely.) ... Yet when my Hawke looks to the left he sees Merrill standing there, ... probably picking flowers from someone's garden with no shoes on ...

It kind of brings another perspective to that rule. Perhaps we should just judge people seperately instead of treating them all the same. Which is what the entire Mage conundrum in act III is all about no?? ^^

By the way ... How can Merrill be responsible for the acts of others?? It's true that she was the one that set in motion a catastrophical chain of events ... but she tried to make sure the consequences would fall on her. Marethari's sacrifice meant that she drew the consequences that were supposed to fall on Merrill's shoulders on herself, but that becomes Marethari's choice. She said it herself 'I paid the price for your blood magic'. Also there are several scenes where Merrill askes Hawke whether she's crazy or should just go back. So she did consider it. I mean, following your idea Hawke should just stay home. Because every time he encounters a bandit it tries to attack him and according to the theory that you are responsible for another's action Hawke is responsible for the bandit attacking him forcing Hawke to kill the bandit.

I guess what I try to say is: You can try factoring in possible outcomes, but there is no such thing as prescience.

Modifié par Jijan Dax, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[LobselVith8]

nightscrawl wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

... when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start.

Um no... Merril is one of those people who has to go to the school of hard knocks. She has to see/feel the bad consequences of her decisions in order to learn from them. No matter what was told to her throughout the entire game from Anders, from Fenris, from Hawke, from Marithari, she NEVER listened and never even considered the possibility that she was wrong.

Merrill disagrees with Marethari about the Eluvian, and while it's implied Merrill studied it (and confirmed by Gaider that she studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard), Marethari apparently disagrees because she thinks their ancestors wanted it to stay buried.

Fenris hates mages and magic, and refuses every overture made by Merrill when all she tries to do is establish a friendship between the two of them (which makes it interesting that despite the years of Fenris giving Merrill a hard time about pretty much everything, when Hawke considers Danarius' offer to return Fenris, Merrill is one of the companions who is completely against it). Fenris

Also, the dichotomy between Anders and Merrill is over their religious differences. Anders tells Merrill that she's wrong because she doesn't share his religious views:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first Children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

In other words, Anders is telling Merrill she's wrong because she doesn't hold the view that Andrastians do about the Fade, spirits and demons, and blood magic. This comes up later when Anders asks, "Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?" For Anders, the difference is religious in nature - between the First Children of the Maker who were abandoned and left alone in the Fade, and the First Children who were abandoned and became resentful as a consequence. Merrill knows the dangers of "spirits" and "demons" who reside in the Fade. She tells Anders, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

nightscrawl wrote...

One of the dialogue options after Marithari dies is to tell her that she knew the price when she started consorting with demons and using blood magic, to which she responds that "If there was a price to pay, I should have paid it." Even at that point she STILL does not get it. Hawke then has the option of telling her that she can't control the action of others, or something along those lines.

Merrill says that because she wanted to put only her life at risk for technology that may have been able to fundamentally help all the elves. I don't see how it's Merrill's fault that Marethari decided to let a demon loose and endanger the entire clan of her own volition. No one forced Marethari to let Audacity loose. There's no evidence that the ancestors wanted to keep the Eluvian hidden, or that Audacity was planning to use the restored Eluvian to escape (which makes little sense given what Morrigan tells The Warden about the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes). Marethari is responsible for her own actions. It's not Merrill's fault that Marethari warned no one about what she was planning to do, despite the fact that there was no one capable of killing her if she couldn't contain the demon within her own body. Marethari was an adult who was charged with being the Keeper of the Sabrae clan, and she instead chose to let loose a demon and tell no one about it until Hawke and Merrill visited Sundermount.

nightscrawl wrote...

For some reason Merrill always seemed to beleive that her use of blood magic and her deal with a demon affected her only, but that was never the case. Even at the first moment she talked to the demon she had no idea what could have happened, and could not have guaranteed with certainty that her clan was still safe from her or from the demon itself.

Merrill makes it clear she has no intention of letting Audacity loose (if the aggressive option is chosen), but asks Hawke to kill her in case of the worst possible scenerio. She imagines anything can happen, and takes a precaution despite the fact that Audacity is trapped within a totem. Given Hawke's background in killing demons, abominations, templars, mages, and a myraid of dangerous lifeforms across the span of several years (including the two most powerful demons of the Fade when rescuing Feynriel), I think Merrill was correct to ask Hawke to take care of things because the Champion of Kirkwall has killed abominations and demons before. The difference between the Keeper and the former First is that Merrill takes a precaution to keep others safe that Marethari doesn't when she intentionally lets Audacity loose while telling no one (at the time) what she did.

[Jijan Dax]

You know Lobselvith8 ... That's a very clear and sound reasoning you have there. I especially like how you adress the dichotomy between Anders and Merrill. I never considered it to be religious in nature but you are quite right. The way Dalish Elves and Humans view spirits in the Fade is mired in religion, with very few actual research being done (how could it, I can only imagine a first enchanter asking his chantry overseer: "Hey, I'm about to venture into the fade to study demons ... take care of things will you??" and of course The Elves lost a lot of their knowledge)

[cihimi]

Yes, faith (or belief or what have you). The answer to everything beyond the comprehension of tiny brains.

[Gervaise]

I just thought I'd mention that I've been replaying the Dalish elf Origin story. In it the elves definitely draw a distinction between the "old" magic that Marathari uses to heal Mahariel and what Marathari calls "dark" magic, which is what she says must be behind the walking dead that Tamlen and Mahariel encounter the first time they go to the ruins. This makes her very concerned and thus the fact that the mirror was in that place, caused the disappearnce of one elf and made another very sick, was likely to cause her doubts about the mirror. If Mahariel also told her about what Tamlen claims he saw prior to blacking out, this would not give her much confidence either. Tamlen also sensed some sort of bad vibe (he already seemed a bit strange before they reached the mirror) and when the others returned to the ruins, they felt it in the forest. I originally thought this was caused by the presence of the darkspawn but may be it was just some sort of effect of activating the mirror.

What I don't understand is why they removed the mirror and took it with them if Marathari thought it was so dangerous. If Merrill didn't cleanse it until after they reached Sundermount, that means they had travelled all the way from Ferelden with a tainted mirror. Anyway, whilst Merrill might be at fault for her single minded pursuit of knowledge at all costs, I do now wonder about Marathari's actions, which at no time really seem to the benefit of the clan she is meant to be protecting, which is at odds with how she was in Origins. I wonder if the real effect of the mirror was not a physical one but an effect on the mind and both of them had already been weakened by some influence of the mirror, which thus made them more suseptible to the wiles of the demon.

[dragonflight288]

The mirror was shattered. I personally think it was far more likely that Merrill grabbed a shard for study and hopefully finding Tamlen and smuggled it with them. I don't think Merethari knew Merrill had it until after they left.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well I was just playing through this part of the game and this was brought to my attention. Merrill cleansed the shard with a blood magic ritual she learned from the demon. She tells you flat out if you ask. I'm having serious doubts about it's effectiveness given that, but I think Marethari and the clan have more than enough reason to not trust it knowing that.

The darkspawn taint hasn't spread from the Eluvian, and given how much Anders hates it and Merrill, he'd jump at the chance to tell Hawke about the taint if there was any there. I wouldn't even put it past him to lie about it. The fact that he says nothing speaks much.

Doesn't mean the completed mirror won't be able to.  I don't recall the mirror in the dalish origin spreading the taint after it was broken. 

 
The elves in Witch Hunt's Dalish Ruins -- which were the same exact ruins -- were tainted by the shards.

really my point though, just that the cleansing really isn't something that the dalish and Marethari have much reason to trust or see as a point in Merrill's favor.

They're simply idiots. It is a point in Merrill's favor. That she was able to remove one of the biggest dangers surrounding the thing is a valuable bit of knowledge. This means that blood magic has certain effects on the taint -- something the players already knew given Avernus' notes -- that should be used to cleanse tainted areas more.

[dragonflight288]

They're simply idiots. It is a point in Merrill's favor. That she was able to remove one of the biggest dangers surrounding the thing is a valuable bit of knowledge. This means that blood magic has certain effects on the taint -- something the players already knew given Avernus' notes -- that should be used to cleanse tainted areas more.

Should be, but won't be if the Chantry has anything to say about it. Shame that.

[TEWR]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

  When was Anders even near it?  It's not as if he frequented the alienage.  Did Duncan detect it from a mile away even when it was broken?  I don't really have much faith in Anders abilities to detect such things, Duncan had decades to hone his senses and was close to his Calling.
[quote]

Anders was able to sense the taint within Bethany/Carver when he had only been a Warden for a year, so he would be able to sense it within an inanimate object when he's been a Warden for 4 years.

Plus, he's able to comment on his disdain for Merrill's work on the Eluvian in Act 2. He says something like "I shudder everytime she says that. She has no idea what she's getting into".

And really, neither does he so he's not one to talk.

[quote]

[quote]At any rate, I suspect the cleansing ritual Audacity taught Merrill was actually a method of preparing the mirror, specifically altering it's purpose to allow him to pass through.[/quote]
Unlikely. I doubt the Fade could ever really link with the mirror; I think that was just Audacity screwing with Merrill's head.[/quote]It didn't seem to have a problem giving Tamlen a nice veiw of the Black City.  This is a magic artifact we're talking about.  All magic save darkspawn magic which draws on the taint is related to the Fade.  It isn't a far stretch at all that Audacity could have the mirror's purpose altered to suit his.
[/quote]


Tamlen didn't see the Black City. He saw an underground city. Those were his words exactly. More likely that he saw Arlathan.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They're simply idiots. It is a point in Merrill's favor. That she was able to remove one of the biggest dangers surrounding the thing is a valuable bit of knowledge. This means that blood magic has certain effects on the taint -- something the players already knew given Avernus' notes -- that should be used to cleanse tainted areas more.

Should be, but won't be if the Chantry has anything to say about it. Shame that.

Seems like almost everyone -- save for the PC and his companions most of the time and maybe some random NPCs -- in Thedas is an idiot.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

General User wrote...

...or Marethari was never the reason Arianni left the Clan.

When Feynriel goes to the Dalish, Arianni is shocked and said the clan didn't even want her to raise him among them.

Then if you talk to her afterwards she says she tried to visit Feynriel but Marethari refused her.


And let's not forget. It was Marethari who advises you to make Feynriel tranquil. And she's the one who sent Mahariel away with Duncan and gives him/her no say. The Dalish warden even has the option to say later that he would rather have had stayed and died.

It would seem that Marethari wants nothing going on in her clan that she doesn't control, certainly...

I got the impression that Arianni was from a different clan since Thrask asks Merrill if she knew Arianni and Merrill says that they don't all know each other.

I imagine that since the Dalish consider themselves all as the People, they consider themselves one giant clan spread out throughout the country.

So it's possible Marethari wasn't the Keeper of Arianni's clan. It's actually possible that Arianni left when Mahariel's father was Keeper, if Arianni was indeed of that clan.

[TEWR]

mcsupersport wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...



Which is valid after she meets Anders.  She was playing with that thing long before Hawke showed up.  The point still stands that Merrill trusts the word of a demon and takes 0 precautions to protect her clan while she's working on something potentially dangerous.  They, and Marethari, are justified in worrying that she'll screw up and doom them all.  It'd be no different than if I were to work on chemical weapons in my garage with no safety equipment.  I may think it's safe, but I can't expect my neighbours to just accept it on my say so.

1)  You don't know what percautions she does or doesn't take, they aren't discussed.  You don't know what magical/physical protections she put around the Mirror while she was in the clan, with or without the help of Marethari.

1) Indeed. It's my belief that she used some of the healing magic the Keeper taught her -- per Origins -- to weaken the taint and then placed it in a box or something, and then used magic to seal the taint within the box. She had to have figured out a way for it to safely be carried since that thing immediately infected Tamlen, Mahariel, and the other Elves of the ruins from Witch Hunt.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Elves in the ruins could've been survivors of the Blight, and not neccesarily infected by the shards.

[Jijan Dax]

Personally I think it was the presence of the taint and the Darkspawn that messed up the mirror and made it so dangerous, not the other way around. Remember that every elven city used to have one. If they were incredibly dangerous the Elves of old would have either improved them or rejected them. They certainly had enough time to work on them. (Also in those days the taint didn't exist so it's perfectly plausible the mirror would be susceptible to it once the Ancient Elves were gone. They never had the opportunity to taint-proof their eluvians)

Once Merrill cleansed it it should have reverted to its original function as a transportation/communication device. It's a point in favour of Merrill really, I don't know why Marethari doesn't recognize this unless she was really, really conservative.

And yes, many people in Thedas are idiots ... but hey, it's a dark fantasy world set in a semi-medieval time. Of course they're mostly idiots. That's what makes it so interesting!! Sometimes fighting centuries of bias and hate for what you know is right =)

[AlexXIV]

I think the taint doesn't spread so easily, for example by touching a tainted person. It needs to get into your blood. I don't really know how Tamlen and the dalish warden got it, but probably because of the explosion or maybe darkspawn. After all we only know that Duncan found him/her outside of the cave. Which means that either he/she dragged herself outside or was dragged outside.

[nightscrawl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

She imagines anything can happen, and takes a precaution despite the fact that Audacity is trapped within a totem. Given Hawke's background in killing demons, abominations, templars, mages, and a myraid of dangerous lifeforms across the span of several years (including the two most powerful demons of the Fade when rescuing Feynriel), I think Merrill was correct to ask Hawke to take care of things because the Champion of Kirkwall has killed abominations and demons before.

Here you make my point for me. She clearly does NOT imagine everything that can happen, which is the whole point of that dialogue path you can take. In life, mage, non-mage, with demons or just normal horrible incidents you cannot predict what will happen. I certainly don't fault Merrill for trying to take precautions, but she wouldn't have had to take any if she had left it alone.

I agree that Marithari is partly to blame, but "more at fault than Merrill"? No.

Regarding Anders, I was mainly thinnking of some banter after you deal with Ser Alrik...

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.

Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Anders: It's not a good feeling, you know.

Merrill: What?

Anders: Being an abomination. I just got a taste of your future.

Merrill: I'm not that foolish. Our relationship is, um, strictly platonic.

Anders: It's like you're trapped in your own body, seeing out your eyes, while someone else moves you like a puppet.

Anders: And you're trying to scream, to move a single muscle, but there's no escape. Until you look down at the blood on your hands...

Merrill: Stop it. You're scaring me.

Anders: That's the point.

As for Fenris, he doesn't hate ALL mages -- I would say that he distrusts ALL mages, untl they prove otherwise -- but that dead horse has been beaten several times over in the Fenris thread here on BSN, I'm not going to get into it here. He does however, hate Merrill, and I admit that even as I don't like Merrill and quite enjoy Fenris, he is an ass at times to her.

With those two my point still stands, she never even once considers the possibility that she might be wrong, or even that she might put people she loves in danger.

You did not address what Hawke has to say though, and I realize that is partly due to the fact that it will be different depending on the player. My main Hawke is a mage. If you've played Legacy you will have seen how Malcom Hawke is regarding the demons, and I have no doubt he instilled those same opinions onto his mage children. My Hawke tries to tell Merrill some of these things and she does not listen. Merrill thinks she has it all under control, but it's proven that she doesn't in the very fact of what Marithari does.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[nightscrawl]

Gervaise wrote...

I wonder if the real effect of the mirror was not a physical one but an effect on the mind and both of them had already been weakened by some influence of the mirror, which thus made them more suseptible to the wiles of the demon.

Oooh I like that idea!

I really should go play both elf origin stories at some point, especially since I've done both human and both dwarf origins. I started a Dalish elf once but I never finished. >.>

[Sons of Horus]

nightscrawl wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I wonder if the real effect of the mirror was not a physical one but an effect on the mind and both of them had already been weakened by some influence of the mirror, which thus made them more suseptible to the wiles of the demon.

Oooh I like that idea!

I really should go play both elf origin stories at some point, especially since I've done both human and both dwarf origins. I started a Dalish elf once but I never finished. >.>

It’s certainly possible given the wackiness of the varterral and all the undead rising / spirits all over the place. I'm surprised that the clan weren’t butchered in their camp.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Elves in the ruins could've been survivors of the Blight, and not neccesarily infected by the shards.

They were Dalish Elves IIRC, which is why Ariane asks for them to rest in peace. Also, ghouls that aren't Wardens -- since Larius may show that Warden ghouls are incredibly different depending on when he left for his Calling -- die within a span of months. Witch Hunt takes place 2.5 years after Origins' ending.

If they were Ghouls from the Blight, they would've been long dead.

[EmperorSahlertz]

"They should've been long dead." Tamlen, Hespith and Ruck are all examples of ghouls who have lived far longer than they "should", so it isn't beyond the capabilities of a ghoul to live longer than a few months.
And since all ghouls always seek out Darkspawn, and we know the mirror was tainted, it would make sense for it to be a nexus for ghouls, even shattered as it was.