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[LobselVith8]

nightscrawl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She imagines anything can happen, and takes a precaution despite the fact that Audacity is trapped within a totem. Given Hawke's background in killing demons, abominations, templars, mages, and a myraid of dangerous lifeforms across the span of several years (including the two most powerful demons of the Fade when rescuing Feynriel), I think Merrill was correct to ask Hawke to take care of things because the Champion of Kirkwall has killed abominations and demons before.

Here you make my point for me. She clearly does NOT imagine everything that can happen, which is the whole point of that dialogue path you can take.

Merrill imagined that anything could happen at Sundermount with Audacity, which is why she asked Hawke to accompany her and kill her in case Audacity wasn't imprisoned anymore in the totem. She was willing to take the risk because (if Merrill was correct) the knowledge could fundamentally change the lives of and help the People.

nightscrawl wrote...

In life, mage, non-mage, with demons or just normal horrible incidents you cannot predict what will happen. I certainly don't fault Merrill for trying to take precautions, but she wouldn't have had to take any if she had left it alone.

Considering that Merrill is an adult and can make her own decisions about what she wants to do with her life, I don't see how you can fault her for trying to restore technology that could irrevocably improve the lives of the People across the continent, especially since your line of thinking is the kind of argument that has been levied against numerous people in history who made discoveries.

nightscrawl wrote...

I agree that Marithari is partly to blame, but "more at fault than Merrill"? No.

Considering Marethari let Audacity loose, became an abomination, and warned no one about what she was doing, I respectfully disagree.

nightscrawl wrote...

Regarding Anders, I was mainly thinnking of some banter after you deal with Ser Alrik...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill: Are you all right?

Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?

Merrill: I'm sorry.

Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!

Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.

Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Anders: It's not a good feeling, you know.

Merrill: What?

Anders: Being an abomination. I just got a taste of your future.

Merrill: I'm not that foolish. Our relationship is, um, strictly platonic.

Anders: It's like you're trapped in your own body, seeing out your eyes, while someone else moves you like a puppet.

Anders: And you're trying to scream, to move a single muscle, but there's no escape. Until you look down at the blood on your hands...

Merrill: Stop it. You're scaring me.

Anders: That's the point.

Both dialogues appearing on a single playthrough is a bug, much like the Dalish boon Epilogue slide appearing for all Warden Epilogues. You are supposed to see one or the other, not both. You're addressing the difference between Friendship Merrill and Rivalry Merrill, with Rivalry Merrill apparently being the weaker of the two. The fact is, Anders' views about blood magic, spirits, and demons are religious in nature, and Merrill handles her magical abilities responsibly for seven years. At the conclusion of the storyline, Merrill isn't an abomination because she never concedes to letting a spirit into her body. Which leads me to ask, why should Merrill adhere to the views held by those with Andrastian faith when she is Dalish?

nightscrawl wrote...

As for Fenris, he doesn't hate ALL mages -- I would say that he distrusts ALL mages, untl they prove otherwise -- but that dead horse has been beaten several times over in the Fenris thread here on BSN, I'm not going to get into it here. He does however, hate Merrill, and I admit that even as I don't like Merrill and quite enjoy Fenris, he is an ass at times to her.

I never claimed Fenris hates all mages, but he generally does hate mages and magic. While he concedes that an apostate Hawke or Bethany handle magic responsibly, it's clear from his personal quests that he has serious issues with magic and mages.

nightscrawl wrote...

With those two my point still stands, she never even once considers the possibility that she might be wrong, or even that she might put people she loves in danger.

Merrill knows that she might fail, that's the reason she brings Hawke along with her. The point behind her risking her life by dealing with Audacity is, she could be right about the implications of the Eluvian, and it's worth the risk for the People.

nightscrawl wrote...

You did not address what Hawke has to say though, and I realize that is partly due to the fact that it will be different depending on the player. My main Hawke is a mage. If you've played Legacy you will have seen how Malcom Hawke is regarding the demons, and I have no doubt he instilled those same opinions onto his mage children. My Hawke tries to tell Merrill some of these things and she does not listen. Merrill thinks she has it all under control, but it's proven that she doesn't in the very fact of what Marithari does.

You mean your Hawke tells Merrill she's wrong about things he has no knowledge about, like the Eluvian? I've never gone through Kirkwall as a Hawke who told people they were wrong about issues he was completely ignorant about, such as the restoration of the Eluvian.

Also, the opinions of one or both parents doesn't mean their children will share those opinions, which is why an apostate Hawke can become a blood mage.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 novembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"They should've been long dead." Tamlen, Hespith and Ruck are all examples of ghouls who have lived far longer than they "should", so it isn't beyond the capabilities of a ghoul to live longer than a few months.
And since all ghouls always seek out Darkspawn, and we know the mirror was tainted, it would make sense for it to be a nexus for ghouls, even shattered as it was.

Tamlen was alive for several months. He fits into the description of living as a ghoul for several months.

Hespith was just starting to go through the process of becoming a broodmother (Adria showed more broodmother syndrome than Hespith). That's different than just becoming a ghoul like those underneath Vigil's Keep in the prison. Also, we don't know how long she was in her ghoul state. She could've been one for, again, a few months. Perhaps she was one of the last members of Branka's house to be sacrificed in those 2 years they were gone

Ruck was alive for five years. However we don't know when he ate the Darkspawn flesh. Perhaps he had been living on his own for a while and only needed to eat the Darkspawn recently.

We don't know when Hespith and Ruck were subject to becoming ghouls. And as I said, the process of becoming a broodmother is different from just becoming a regular ghoul. Yes I know broodmothers are ghouls, but they're a special type of ghoul.

EDIT: Not to mention Hespith was only barely staying in Dwarven form by her willpower and not through anything else.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 novembre 2011 - 04:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

As the codex says: "Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long." So it would seem taht ghouls can survive longer than just a few months, though that is atypical and most die within a few months.

[Jijan Dax]

As for my comment about the mirror. Wherever the darkspawn go, the land is tainted. In Lothering for example the ground is poisoned ... maybe even beyond repair. And there are entire regions left over from the first blights that are still lifeless. So yes ... I'd say the taint could definitely affect a powerful construct like the eluvian in the way I described.

Can I say btw that it is heartwarming to see some loyal fans take Merrill's side?? I know it's not part of this thread but I do hope she comes back in DA3, it would break my heart if she didn't.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As the codex says: "Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long." So it would seem taht ghouls can survive longer than just a few months, though that is atypical and most die within a few months.

But for the player to find 20 ghouls who just happened to fall into the atypical Ghoul category by being tainted somewhere else all in one ruin? That's stretching it really far.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As the codex says: "Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long." So it would seem taht ghouls can survive longer than just a few months, though that is atypical and most die within a few months.

But for the player to find 20 ghouls who just happened to fall into the atypical Ghoul category by being tainted somewhere else all in one ruin? That's stretching it really far.

Considering the warden kills at least a 1000 and survives it is perhaps staticstally not so unrealistic.

[Gervaise]

Lobselvith8: With regard to Fenris you say "it's clear from his personal quests that he has serious issues with magic and mages".
His personal quests involve the cause of his aversion to mages, Danarius, Hadrianna and their minions. Whatever he does or says on these quests is going to be heavily prejudiced against magic because of who he is up against. They are absolute bastards and the only thing you can hold against him is that he broke his word to Hadrianna - big deal.

A large part of his issue with Merril is not just her blood magic, which Anders is also vehemently against, but the fact that she abandoned her family and the advice of her mentor, in favour of that of a demon and her mirror. Fenris desparately wants a past and a family, and when he finally finds his sister and tries to held her (as he did before when he was a slave), she betrays him and if you persuade him to spare her, she shows no remorse for her actions whatsoever. Regardless of how she things it turned out for her, what he did when he submitted to the torture of Danarius' experiment was done for his family. So I think this is why he is so critical of Merrill because it seems to him like she favoured an object of possible power over her flesh and blood family, just as his sister preferred the chance of advancement with Danarius over her brother's freedom.

[AlexXIV]

It's called projection. Whatever happened to him in his past, it wasn't Merrill's fault. And constantly making her feel bad about it is neither helpful nor nice. It's actually just a thing between Hawke and Merrill. Everyone else is just being nosey. Imo.

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As the codex says: "Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long." So it would seem taht ghouls can survive longer than just a few months, though that is atypical and most die within a few months.

But for the player to find 20 ghouls who just happened to fall into the atypical Ghoul category by being tainted somewhere else all in one ruin? That's stretching it really far.

Considering the warden kills at least a 1000 and survives it is perhaps staticstally not so unrealistic.

Ghouls aren't Darkspawn.

[megski]

What happens to Tamlen? I never completely played through the Dalish Origin.

[esper]

megski wrote...

What happens to Tamlen? I never completely played through the Dalish Origin.

He is a ghoul who are part of the darkspawn raid on your camp.

[megski]

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What happens to Tamlen? I never completely played through the Dalish Origin.

He is a ghoul who are part of the darkspawn raid on your camp.

 Well that didn't end well.  

[TEWR]

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What happens to Tamlen? I never completely played through the Dalish Origin.

He is a ghoul who are part of the darkspawn raid on your camp.

 Well that didn't end well.  

To be fair, you had to know it wouldn't end well when you were unable to find him and he had been gone for 3 days with no aid.

But it really depends on how you look at it. Would you want your friend who has become a bonafide Ghoul to live that life? The Joining wouldn't help him since it's too late.

It's a mercy killing. Sad, but in a way it is a happy ending. Mahariel can rest easy knowing what happened. Sometimes not knowing what happened to a friend or family member is the bigger pain, because of the hope that constantly claws at the heart.

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What happens to Tamlen? I never completely played through the Dalish Origin.

He is a ghoul who are part of the darkspawn raid on your camp.

 Well that didn't end well.  

To be fair, you had to know it wouldn't end well when you were unable to find him and he had been gone for 3 days with no aid.

But it really depends on how you look at it. Would you want your friend who has become a bonafide Ghoul to live that life? The Joining wouldn't help him since it's too late.

It's a mercy killing. Sad, but in a way it is a happy ending. Mahariel can rest easy knowing what happened. Sometimes not knowing what happened to a friend or family member is the bigger pain, because of the hope that constantly claws at the heart.

Yeah the way I saw it too. Of course curing him would have been better but not an option, so that was the best possible ending anyway. Plus killing darkspawn is always a good thing.

[megski]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

megski wrote...

esper wrote...

megski wrote...

What happens to Tamlen? I never completely played through the Dalish Origin.

He is a ghoul who are part of the darkspawn raid on your camp.

 Well that didn't end well.  

To be fair, you had to know it wouldn't end well when you were unable to find him and he had been gone for 3 days with no aid.

But it really depends on how you look at it. Would you want your friend who has become a bonafide Ghoul to live that life? The Joining wouldn't help him since it's too late.

It's a mercy killing. Sad, but in a way it is a happy ending. Mahariel can rest easy knowing what happened. Sometimes not knowing what happened to a friend or family member is the bigger pain, because of the hope that constantly claws at the heart.

Oh yeah, you're right.  I was just meaning that it was sad to end that way.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

esper wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As the codex says: "Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long." So it would seem taht ghouls can survive longer than just a few months, though that is atypical and most die within a few months.

But for the player to find 20 ghouls who just happened to fall into the atypical Ghoul category by being tainted somewhere else all in one ruin? That's stretching it really far.

Considering the warden kills at least a 1000 and survives it is perhaps staticstally not so unrealistic.

Ghouls aren't Darkspawn.

Killing 1000 of anything capable of fighting back is statistically unrealistic...

But lets just say the the residual magic of the eluvian is what sustains the ghouls beyond their normal lifespan.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killing 1000 of anything capable of fighting back is statistically unrealistic...

But lets just say the the residual magic of the eluvian is what sustains the ghouls beyond their normal lifespan.

I'm not sure how feasible that is. The taint is biologically a part of the Ghoul/Darkspawn and is what sustains the Darkspawn since they're pretty much the taint incarnate.

Then again, the Eluvians are an elven artifact and the Elves are reputed to have been immortal back then. Maybe it isn't as unfeasible as I thought.

So it's possible I guess, but I think the idea that the Elves in the ruins were tainted by the remaining shards is what really happened.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

esper wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As the codex says: "Fortunately, ghouls rarely survive their corruption for long." So it would seem taht ghouls can survive longer than just a few months, though that is atypical and most die within a few months.

But for the player to find 20 ghouls who just happened to fall into the atypical Ghoul category by being tainted somewhere else all in one ruin? That's stretching it really far.

Considering the warden kills at least a 1000 and survives it is perhaps staticstally not so unrealistic.

Ghouls aren't Darkspawn.

Killing 1000 of anything capable of fighting back is statistically unrealistic...

But lets just say the the residual magic of the eluvian is what sustains the ghouls beyond their normal lifespan.

Well the warden doesn't kill a 1000 at one time, but with Kokaro Wilds, Ostagar Tower, random encoutneres, going into the Deep Roads, end game + awakening. I say that the death toll of darkspawn is up to a 1000.

[dragonflight288]

*song starts playing* Yankee Warden went to town, riding on a bronto, slapped a helmet on his head and called his troops to battle.

[AlexXIV]

The reason why the Warden, or Hawke, kill so many enemies is simply because they can't give him an army or even mercenary group. If they could do that, like in Mount and Blade, you would still kill thousands but not with a group of four. So basically I take it as that. There are supposed to be more people than the protagonist and companions but you don't see them because the guy who tells the story only remembers the important names.

[TEWR]

AlexXIV wrote...

The reason why the Warden, or Hawke, kill so many enemies is simply because they can't give him an army or even mercenary group. If they could do that, like in Mount and Blade, you would still kill thousands but not with a group of four. So basically I take it as that. There are supposed to be more people than the protagonist and companions but you don't see them because the guy who tells the story only remembers the important names.

A good point.

For the Warden it makes more sense given that he fights Darkspawn a lot of the time and Wardens are able to sense Darkspawn. Thus, he's able to sense when they try to attack him.

I like to see it as all of the companions are traveling with the protagonist everywhere, but the main party is the Vanguard and the rest just mop up anything else.

Of course, that only worked for DAO. I don't think it would work quite as well for DAII.