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[Saberchic]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well old magic does not equal bloodmagic. But I understand that in the old times bloodmagic was more common and not a forbidden art. So likely many powerful old magics actually required blood as fuel. I mean it's cheaper and easier to get than lyrium. And we don't even know if the elves of Arlathan even had access to lyrium. I mean they were a reclusive bunch and I doubt they mingled with dwarves without need.

Look at Zathrian. Nobody in his tribe seemed bothered by his uses of blood magic. And it was probably blood magic that he or Lanaya would use to remove the werewolf contamination from the hunters.

Saying that Zathrian and/or Lanaya used blood magic is quite an assumption.

I'm in the Old magic =/=blood magic school of thought. Perhaps there was another "fuel" than blood that was long forgotten for one reason or another, or maybe lyrium has been the main driving force all along. After all, elves and dwarves have quite a long history together (I'm thinking about the underground settlements that we've come across.).

One of my main questions that I wanted to ask Merrill in game was if she tried finding other means before resorting to blood magic, or did she just take the first opportunity that popped up. It just seemed really irresponsible for her to trust a demon like that.

[AlexXIV]

Saberchic wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well old magic does not equal bloodmagic. But I understand that in the old times bloodmagic was more common and not a forbidden art. So likely many powerful old magics actually required blood as fuel. I mean it's cheaper and easier to get than lyrium. And we don't even know if the elves of Arlathan even had access to lyrium. I mean they were a reclusive bunch and I doubt they mingled with dwarves without need.

Look at Zathrian. Nobody in his tribe seemed bothered by his uses of blood magic. And it was probably blood magic that he or Lanaya would use to remove the werewolf contamination from the hunters.

Saying that Zathrian and/or Lanaya used blood magic is quite an assumption.

I'm in the Old magic =/=blood magic school of thought. Perhaps there was another "fuel" than blood that was long forgotten for one reason or another, or maybe lyrium has been the main driving force all along. After all, elves and dwarves have quite a long history together (I'm thinking about the underground settlements that we've come across.).

One of my main questions that I wanted to ask Merrill in game was if she tried finding other means before resorting to blood magic, or did she just take the first opportunity that popped up. It just seemed really irresponsible for her to trust a demon like that.

It's been a while and I can't quite remember for sure but I think it was hinted that it was blood magic Zathrian used. Though as far as I know he didn't tell anyone, not even Lanaya. So I'd say Zath was a bloodmage, but neither was Lanaya one, nor is/was bloodmagic accepted. It was Zathrian's dirty little secret.

[AlexXIV]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nobody in Zathrian's clan would be aware of his sue of blood magic, since Keepers and their Firsts never use magic in public.

It doesn't mean they are never told of it though.

The truth about Zathiran was revealed after he ended the curse. And nobody was up in arms about it.

I don't know about other people's playthrough but in mine I never mentioned to anyone. I put it as if Zathrian was a hero and died to save the clan. And that's all they know.

[Joy Divison]

AlexXIV wrote...

I am still in the opinion the story doesn't come across as the writers intended. I have a hard time to believe that the moral of Merrill's story is 'it's the keeper's fault'. I may be wrong here but usually you would expect Merrill's pride and (even if mild) recklessness persueing her goals comes biting her butt. But it comes biting the Keeper's butt. I think the point was to show that Merrill's actions led to the Keeper's death. Not that the Keeper was the biggest fool of the clan. Somehow I have the feeling that the person(s) responsible for writing the dalish in DA keep overlooking in stuff and making logic jumps. It may be because the writers usually know more than the readers/players. I can only say it doesn't make sense to me, and I can only assume what they wanted to say with it.

I'm pretty sure the writers have a better grasp of their intentions than you do.

I can't remeber the last time I read anything which suggested a black/white story was superior to one which showed ambiguity and compelled people to think rather than easily connect the dots.

[Saberchic]

AlexXIV wrote...
It's been a while and I can't quite remember for sure but I think it was hinted that it was blood magic Zathrian used. Though as far as I know he didn't tell anyone, not even Lanaya. So I'd say Zath was a bloodmage, but neither was Lanaya one, nor is/was bloodmagic accepted. It was Zathrian's dirty little secret.

It's been awhile for me too. I only remember that Zathrian used it to make the curse. I was only thinking about the lifting of the curse, which is Lanaya for me as I never let Zathrian live. But I do agree that the using of blood magic was definitely a secret.

If it was common among the keepers to use, I doubt Merrill would have had the trouble she did with her clan. In fact, I would think then that Marethari would have used it to cleanse the eluvian without a second thought.

[LobselVith8]

Saberchic wrote...

One of my main questions that I wanted to ask Merrill in game was if she tried finding another means before resorting to blood magic, or did she just take the first opportunity that popped up.

Merrill addresses this. She said she didn't have the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard, so she used blood magic instead because it's more powerful than regular magic. The fact that Merrill isn't a ghoul like the corrupted elves in the Elven Ruins (who were corrupted by the remaining shards of the Eluvian) illustrates that Merrill was successful in cleansing the shard; otherwise, she would have ended up as a ghoul instead.

As for being "irresponsible," Merrill seemed to simply converse with Audacity. There is no evidence that Merrill let him out (and addresses the distinction on rivalry, saying she wouldn't let Audacity loose from his totem). Even Marethari never argues that Merrill was at risk from simply conversing with Audacity, but from her assumption that Audacity could escape through the restored Eluvian that Merrill was working on).

[Malanek]

Joy Divison wrote...

TJPags wrote...

At the end of the day, sure Maretheri didn't have to screw with the demon - there were other options - but if Merrill had listened, and stopped her foolishness, she doesn't get cast out, Maretheri doesn't die, etc. etc.

Maretheri becoming an abomination is not on Merrill. Merrill not listening may have been myopic and self-defeating but Maretheri's "solution" was utter stupidity and carelessness and unbefiting of a keeper.

I think this is unfair. Her "solution" did stop the demon. It was, as Anders said, an incredibly selfless act out of love for Merill. Her only real failing was to not protect her clan sufficiently. The way the clan attacks at the end is a bit silly though. But if her objective was to give Merill the chance of redemption and stop the demon, then it worked.

[Saberchic]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill addresses this. She said she didn't have the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard, so she used blood magic instead because it's more powerful than regular magic. The fact that Merrill isn't a ghoul like the corrupted elves in the Elven Ruins (who were corrupted by the remaining shards of the Eluvian) illustrates that Merrill was successful in cleansing the shard; otherwise, she would have ended up as a ghoul instead.

As for being "irresponsible," Merrill seemed to simply converse with Audacity. There is no evidence that Merrill let him out (and addresses the distinction on rivalry, saying she wouldn't let Audacity loose from his totem). Even Marethari never argues that Merrill was at risk from simply conversing with Audacity, but from her assumption that Audacity could escape through the restored Eluvian that Merrill was working on).

So... then she could have waited and gotten enough lyrium for it to work? That's what I'm getting from that.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Anders say that in order to perform blood magic, you have to accept a demon inside of you? I thought there was a banter with him and Fenris about that. The part I find irresponsible is that she purposely opens herself and her entire clan to the threat of a demon. I'm not saying Audacity was that demon, but she difinitely had a bond with one because she was using blood magic.

If she simply didn't have enough lyrium, why couldn't she have waited or sent word to other clans. I'm sure they would have loved an opportunity to reclaim a part of their history. (Besides, I get the feeling that there's more than lyrium and blood magic out there.) I would hope that she would have at least tried to attempt another way of cleansing the eluvian before going to blood magic.

[Addai]

Forst1999 wrote...

@Addai67
After killing the Varteral, she laments that the mirror led Merrill to blood magic. That indicates that blood magic is not ok for her. Also "You have always known that your blood magic had a price, da'len". She clearly has a problem not only with the eluvian, but with blood magic too.

That's odd.  I suppose it goes along with the Chantry hypocrisy regarding blood magic.  The Chantry will use blood magic to scry for rogue mages, but condemns it wholesale otherwise.  The Dalish use blood in vallaslin, but apparently have some scruples about it.  Maybe there is blood magic and then there is blood magic.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 novembre 2011 - 08:27 .

[GavrielKay]

esper wrote...

I think that dealing with Audacity was dangerous, but truth to be told Merrill only does it trice and she purposely moves away from the clan. She does tries to completely it without the demon. Do I think that going back to Audacity instead of keep trying to figure out new ways to restore the mirror is stupid? Yes, I think so. I don't think Audacity was ever going to help her restore the mirror more than it had already helped.
But Hawke agrees to the danger and the clan should have moved away from Sundermount by then.

Merrill leaving the clan might have made them a bit safer, but it didn't help the already lousy situation of the elves in the Alienage.  If she was going to put anyone at risk, it might as well have been the clan.  The only blame I put on Marethari is sending Merrill away WITH the mirror, rather than exile her and keep the mirror safely in the hands of the clan who wouldn't have tried to use it.

Merrill acts the spoiled child who puts who obsession above the needs of the clan.  I think they needed a second more than they needed an ancient artifact.

[Forst1999]

@Saberchic
You don't have to let a demon inside you to become a blood mage. The Fenris/Anders banter was "You have to look a demon in the eye", meaning that you can only learn it from a demon. But the games aren't very clear about this. This banter and the way you learned it in DA:O imply you learn it from demons. A banter between Merrill and Anders, as well as the templars' insistance how easy it is for mages to use blood magic, imply that you can pick it up without real effort. Jowan learned it from a book, which Awakening also made possible.
Getting the amount of lyrium wouldn't be as simple as you think. It doesn't exactly grow on trees. She would have to buy it, but from what? And as Marethari isn't a fan of the eluvian, she wouldn't send word to the other clans to send some stuff.

@Addai67
We don't know much about the Dalish's general stand on blood magic. This could just be Marethari's opinion.

[Wulfram]

Saberchic wrote...
So.... then she could have waited and gotten enough lyrium for it to work? That's what I'm getting from that.

Keeping an uncleansed shard would have been hugely dangerous.  I doubt the Dalish have easy access to lyrium - and even if they were able to find enough, with Marethari's opposition Merrill surely wouldn't have got it.

[Big I]

Saberchic wrote...
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Anders say that in order to perform blood magic, you have to accept a demon inside of you?

I just assume Anders is wrong. In Awakening you can spec Anders to blood mage, and it even affects his dialogue in a very small way. DA2 Anders is either a mage who turned away from blood magic after becoming an abomination, or was "canonised" as never having been one. Furthemore, it's hard to believe that Zathrian or Jowan or Alain dealt with demons to become blood mages.


As for Marethari, if she was worried about the demon I don't know why she didn't just contact Hawke to kill it for her.

EDIT:

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 01 novembre 2011 - 08:45 .

[Gervaise]

You don't have to accept a demon inside you to do blood magic but it was originally implied (in Origins) that it was originally taught to humans by demons and so unless you have an ancient tome as a reference, the usual way to learn it and to gain power from it is by doing a deal with a demon. Some people then become possessed but more often it is someone else who is the victim that the demon receives. In Origins the trade off for learning blood magic was Connor. Merrill didn't appear to have made such a deal to get the demon's help with the mirror but what she may not have appreciated was that the demon was actually after the Keeper (I've just read the short story and it is the Keeper that Audacity actually addresses to ask for help originally although Merrill hears it as well). So even though Merrill did not consciously offer Marathari as her price for the blood magic, that effectively is what Audacity took in return for the "help" and probably knew that in giving the assistance to Merrill, it would achieve its aim.

Anders' objection to blood magic may have its roots in his original training (Malcolm Hawke also was against it and had to be blackmailed into using it), his awareness of the dangers and also his relationship with Justice. His says after the trip to the Fade that there is nothing like being possessed to avoid temptation, so the close relationship between demons and blood magic is probably why Justice disapproves of the practice.

[Fox In The Box]

@ Gervaise - Just as a correction, you don't have to let the demon possess Connor in order to receive the BM specialization. With a high enough coercion, you can threaten her into giving it to you for free :3

Also, I don't think there a consensus where blood magic originally came from as of yet. The Old God Dumat and the elves of Arlathan are also listed as possibilities, if I'm not mistaken.

[TEWR]

Ah finally, a Marethari bashing thread!


edit:

taken from the thread Merrill: She's a Keeper!


In my mind, Marethari was and always will be wrong. Her actions never helped anything and I hate her with a passion.

Example 1: Merrill invoked an Elven right with Marethari that she would perform a task to receive the Arulin'holm. Marethari then tasked her with "killing" the Varterral. The two Elves then agreed to the terms that if the Varterral was slain, Marethari would give Merrill the tool.

Hawke is only a witness to this agreement. He is not the one who is supposed to receive the tool as the tool belongs to everyone among the People (the Dalish). Hawke is a human and he has no knowledge about Elven culture.

When the Varterral is slain, Marethari reneges on her deal and hands Hawke -- the human -- the tool that belongs to the Elves. This shows to me that Marethari cannot keep her word and cannot be trusted.

Example 2: When Merrill asks Keeper Marethari about Pol and why he fled, she says that the clan fears Merrill will bring back the Taint. When Merrill asks where they even got such a foolish idea, Marethari says that she warned the clan.

However, this claim is not only wrong but a case of slander and calumny and has Marethari instigating irrational fear amongst the clan. Merrill has gone 3-4 years without being tainted. This is something that Anders would've been able to sense, especially if you bring him to Merrill's house when she asks you to join her for her Act 2 quest. Anders and even Duncan could sense the taint within Bethany/Carver and Mahariel respectively. Because Anders says nothing, it's evident that Merrill isn't tainted and the shard is cleansed.

And if you want to use knowledge from the Warden's experiences in DAO: WH, the elves in the Elven Ruins were tainted by the remaining shards. This happened 2.5 years after the Eluvian was found. Merrill not only goes 3-4 years without being tainted when the player finds out about Marethari's despicable deeds, but she goes another 3 years without being tainted. Again, Anders makes no comment.

Not only that, but Merrill says to Marethari that they've been over this many times, which means that she told Marethari the Eluvian shard was cleansed. So it's obviously not a threat. But Marethari acts like a fool by making the clan fear Merrill and then having the sheer, unmitigated audacity to ask Merrill to return to the clan. To the clan that now fears her to the point that they'd rather take their chances with a crazed Varterral than be around her!

And additionally, if Merrill was tainted ceasing contact with the shard wouldn't keep the taint from spreading within her body. She would become a Ghoul and would seek out the Darkspawn (or alternatively the Darkspawn would seek her out). Either way, she would turn into a broodmother.

And considering Hespith and Laryn left on an expedition 2 years prior to the events of Origins, it takes 2 years maximum for a woman to become a broodmother.

We also know that Ghouls cannot spread the taint. It is something they are stuck with, but do not spread to other people.

So, Marethari instilled fear into the clan when none was necessary and for that I cannot side with her because now the clan sees Merrill as the cause for all their troubles when that just isn't true. Marethari is the cause for all of their troubles. The clan is just seeking to use Merrill as a scapegoat for anything that goes wrong because of their Elven superiority complex.

That's why all of my Hawkes pursue a friendship with her -- though they dont' immediately know these things. It's more that Hawke just wants to be friends with everyone and then sees Marethari as becoming increasingly in the wrong -- and that's why they always tell her clan that they will make sure Merrill harms no one else.

My Hawkes don't believe that. They're just using the fear and want for a scapegoat that is present within the clan to get them to leave safely.

My Hawkes know Merrill is right, and will defend her when the clan isn't anywhere near her. My Hawkes don't want to kill the clan which may hurt Merrill even more than she already is hurt by Marethari's stupidity.

Also, I've only done one playthrough where I didn't romance Merrill, and that was for the only FemHawke I ever finished. She romanced Anders on a Rivalry path, though she was also pro-mage so I can't do a pro-mage Hawke that rivals Anders ever again. It just fails on a spectacular level.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 novembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[The dead fish]

Does anyone know why the Dalatians remained at Kirkwall after the flemeth's departure while the lore say they never stay in the same place ? Seven years.  Why Marethari did not decide to leave the country ? I would say first : " that doesn't make sense, " or then, " isn't that strange ? " As you wish.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 novembre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

[Sharn01]

Saberchic wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well old magic does not equal bloodmagic. But I understand that in the old times bloodmagic was more common and not a forbidden art. So likely many powerful old magics actually required blood as fuel. I mean it's cheaper and easier to get than lyrium. And we don't even know if the elves of Arlathan even had access to lyrium. I mean they were a reclusive bunch and I doubt they mingled with dwarves without need.

Look at Zathrian. Nobody in his tribe seemed bothered by his uses of blood magic. And it was probably blood magic that he or Lanaya would use to remove the werewolf contamination from the hunters.

Saying that Zathrian and/or Lanaya used blood magic is quite an assumption.

I'm in the Old magic =/=blood magic school of thought. Perhaps there was another "fuel" than blood that was long forgotten for one reason or another, or maybe lyrium has been the main driving force all along. After all, elves and dwarves have quite a long history together (I'm thinking about the underground settlements that we've come across.).

One of my main questions that I wanted to ask Merrill in game was if she tried finding other means before resorting to blood magic, or did she just take the first opportunity that popped up. It just seemed really irresponsible for her to trust a demon like that.

Its been a while, but I am pretty sure I remember dialogue where Merrill repeatedly asked Marethari for help cleansing the mirror, and turned to the demon for answers when she refused to help, the demon was the one who told her she could do it with blood magic.

[TEWR]

Saberchic wrote...

So... then she could have waited and gotten enough lyrium for it to work? That's what I'm getting from that.

It's not that simple. Lyrium can only be mined by the Dwarves of Orzammar and Kal-Sharok (whether surface Dwarves are also able to I don't know), and what lyrium is mined is in direct control of the Chantry. Merrill can't just go up to them and ask for lyrium. They wouldn't give it to her, and they'd be able to sense that she was a mage.

So she'd be caught.

Neither could she go to the Dwarves, because her clan lost their halla. How is unknown, though I would think it would be due to the dangers of Sundermount. Perhaps the halla ran away.

Anyway, they can't travel.

And no, the Carta isn't an option. They operate out of Kirkwall, where Templars are still around. How would Merrill acquire enough coin to pay for lyrium when everything in the clan is free to the other clan members and coin isn't something they care about? How would she acquire the coin needed if she were to live in Kirkwall, where racism against Elves is rampant? Elves don't get hired for a lot of the jobs, and what elves do get hired are paid a very miniscule wage.

Now, unless you say she could make them pay by hitting them with a critical D'awww!! attack, I see no way she could've gotten the lyrium other than that.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Anders say that in order to perform blood magic, you have to accept a demon inside of you? I thought there was a banter with him and Fenris about that. The part I find irresponsible is that she purposely opens herself and her entire clan to the threat of a demon. I'm not saying Audacity was that demon, but she difinitely had a bond with one because she was using blood magic.

The origins of blood magic are a mystery. It's known that Dumat taught blood magic, but that doesn't mean he created it (per a DG post somewhere on here). People think demons or Elves originally discovered it.

Frankly, I'm more inclined to think it was the Elves who discovered it since blood magic is tied to the physical and not the Fade. The only reason demons can teach it is because it's a form of magic, and the arcane is eternal in the Fade (since Torpor is able to remark on two forgotten-by-Thedosians magicks)

Also, Anders says that you just have to accept a deal with a demon. You don't actually let him inside you. He also says that one can learn it accidentally.

If she simply didn't have enough lyrium, why couldn't she have waited or sent word to other clans. I'm sure they would have loved an opportunity to reclaim a part of their history. (Besides, I get the feeling that there's more than lyrium and blood magic out there.) I would hope that she would have at least tried to attempt another way of cleansing the eluvian before going to blood magic.

How would she send word to the clans when their halla were gone and it took them 6 years to contact another clan? The clans are scattered and one clan doesn't know where another is.

The Eluvians are the only way to establish quick contact with another clan, if each clan has one. And that's what Merrill was trying to do. Restore the Eluvian so that it could do what she knows it does again.

That doesn't mean that she wouldn't stop studying them. Perhaps she'd think that there would be more to it than meets the eye, since she also says she can sense the power within it.

[TEWR]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

Ah, so apparently it's wrong of people to hold a viewpoint that isn't "Merrill's wrong because I say so!"? It's wrong for us to see her as not being stupid?

LobselVith8 wrote...

and addresses the distinction on rivalry, saying she wouldn't let Audacity loose from his totem

She does? I didn't know that on the Rivalry path she says that too.

I knew that if Hawke chooses the aggresive option -- which was really just going to the blunt truth of the matter insofar as Hawke knew -- that she says she won't summon Audacity. Is that what you meant or does Rivalry also say this (asks because he has never done and will never do Rivalry)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:00 .

[Sharn01]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

Its funny how so many people who hate Merrill for risking her own life to make things better for her people seem to be the same ones who are perfectly fine with TIM mass murdering millions of human colonists with eezo exposure in an attempt to create a few dozen biotics.

[lobi]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

Not a Merril fan. However. The caged Demon spoke to both Merril and Marethari in their dreams.
Merril got information from the Demon and it remained caged. Merril was safe as long as it remained caged.
Marethari freed it from a centuries old prison and took it into herself. How is this the most secure option?
It'a not about how wrong blood magic is or how virtuous self sacrifice is, the reasons why have nought to do with it. Merril left it caged, Marethari freed it. It's that simple.

[General User]

Merrill's fault is that she cared too much about the elves past and too much about their future (as she imagined it anyway).   Her goals became her obsessions and she turned her back on people who cared about her to pursue them.


To misquote Yoda:
"All her life has she looked away... to the future, to the past.  Never her mind on where she was!"

Modifié par General User, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:27 .