545 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Example 1: Merrill invoked an Elven right with Marethari that she would perform a task to receive the Arulin'holm. Marethari then tasked her with "killing" the Varterral. The two Elves then agreed to the terms that if the Varterral was slain, Marethari would give Merrill the tool.

Hawke is only a witness to this agreement. He is not the one who is supposed to receive the tool as the tool belongs to everyone among the People (the Dalish). Hawke is a human and he has no knowledge about Elven culture.

When the Varterral is slain, Marethari reneges on her deal and hands Hawke -- the human -- the tool that belongs to the Elves. This shows to me that Marethari cannot keep her word and cannot be trusted.

  She's doing what she thinks is best for Merrill, I don't see why this is a negative.  If anything it means her fear for what may happen to Merrill and others as a result of her pursuits outways even her concern for Dalish custom.  That's rather big for a keeper.

Example 2: When Merrill asks Keeper Marethari about Pol and why he fled, she says that the clan fears Merrill will bring back the Taint. When Merrill asks where they even got such a foolish idea, Marethari says that she warned the clan.

However, this claim is not only wrong but a case of slander and calumny and has Marethari instigating irrational fear amongst the clan. Merrill has gone 3-4 years without being tainted. This is something that Anders would've been able to sense, especially if you bring him to Merrill's house when she asks you to join her for her Act 2 quest. Anders and even Duncan could sense the taint within Bethany/Carver and Mahariel respectively. Because Anders says nothing, it's evident that Merrill isn't tainted and the shard is cleansed.

And if you want to use knowledge from the Warden's experiences in DAO: WH, the elves in the Elven Ruins were tainted by the remaining shards. This happened 2.5 years after the Eluvian was found. Merrill not only goes 3-4 years without being tainted when the player finds out about Marethari's despicable deeds, but she goes another 3 years without being tainted. Again, Anders makes no comment.

  Considering a fully intact mirror was enough to kill one elf and turn the other into a ghoul, I don't see how you can possibly say this was not a valid concern.  Marethari is worried that a completed mirror would bring back the taint, and that is Merrill's aim.  Of course she warned the clan of the possible result.  The shards aren't the issue here, it's the whole Marethari is worried about, and it seems like qite a rational fear given character knowledge..

Not only that, but Merrill says to Marethari that they've been over this many times, which means that she told Marethari the Eluvian shard was cleansed. So it's obviously not a threat. But Marethari acts like a fool by making the clan fear Merrill and then having the sheer, unmitigated audacity to ask Merrill to return to the clan. To the clan that now fears her to the point that they'd rather take their chances with a crazed Varterral than be around her!

And additionally, if Merrill was tainted ceasing contact with the shard wouldn't keep the taint from spreading within her body. She would become a Ghoul and would seek out the Darkspawn (or alternatively the Darkspawn would seek her out). Either way, she would turn into a broodmother.

And considering Hespith and Laryn left on an expedition 2 years prior to the events of Origins, it takes 2 years maximum for a woman to become a broodmother.

We also know that Ghouls cannot spread the taint. It is something they are stuck with, but do not spread to other people.

So, Marethari instilled fear into the clan when none was necessary and for that I cannot side with her because now the clan sees Merrill as the cause for all their troubles when that just isn't true. Marethari is the cause for all of their troubles. The clan is just seeking to use Merrill as a scapegoat for anything that goes wrong because of their Elven superiority complex.

  You have a mixed up veiw here.  Marethari is not worried about what the shards can do, she is worried about what the finished mirror might do.

That's why all of my Hawkes pursue a friendship with her -- though they dont' immediately know these things. It's more that Hawke just wants to be friends with everyone and then sees Marethari as becoming increasingly in the wrong -- and that's why they always tell her clan that they will make sure Merrill harms no one else.

My Hawkes don't believe that. They're just using the fear and want for a scapegoat that is present within the clan to get them to leave safely.

My Hawkes know Merrill is right, and will defend her when the clan isn't anywhere near her. My Hawkes don't want to kill the clan which may hurt Merrill even more than she already is hurt by Marethari's stupidity.

Also, I've only done one playthrough where I didn't romance Merrill, and that was for the only FemHawke I ever finished. She romanced Anders on a Rivalry path, though she was also pro-mage so I can't do a pro-mage Hawke that rivals Anders ever again. It just fails on a spectacular level.

  All my Hawke's do friendship with Merril too, most of them romance her.  Nothing Marethari did was irrational though, except becoming an abomination.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[TEWR]

Saberchic wrote...


Saying that Zathrian and/or Lanaya used blood magic is quite an assumption.

The game has him labeled as a blood mage since Keeper didn't exist in Origins at the time. He was also able to make Wild Sylvans, which are trees possessed by demons. One would think he bound demons to the trees in order to do that, which requires blood magic.

Zathrian was a blood mage. Just not one that used it for every sort of thing, but nevertheless a blood mage.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Saberchic wrote...


Saying that Zathrian and/or Lanaya used blood magic is quite an assumption.

The game has him labeled as a blood mage since Keeper didn't exist in Origins at the time. He was also able to make Wild Sylvans, which are trees possessed by demons. One would think he bound demons to the trees in order to do that, which requires blood magic.

Zathrian was a blood mage. Just not one that used it for every sort of thing, but nevertheless a blood mage.

The game might label him that, but you can't use the wild Sylvans as proof.  Velanna could do it too and she was no blood mage.

[Fox In The Box]

Didn't the ritual Zathrian used to bind the spirit to that wolf require his blood? Wouldn't that count as blood magic?

[Heimdall]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Didn't the ritual Zathrian used to bind the spirit to that wolf require his blood? Wouldn't that count as blood magic?

I don't remember anything like that, or anything specific about the ritual even being mentioned..

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:23 .

[Fox In The Box]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Didn't the ritual Zathrian used to bind the spirit to that wolf require his blood? Wouldn't that count as blood magic?

I don't remember anything like that, or anything specific about the ritual even being mentioned..

As far as I can recall, the Lady of the Forest tells you that the magic behind the ritual was so powerful it couldn't have been cast without his blood. That's why he's immortal - because his life force is tied with the curse.

I can check again, just to be sure.

EDIT: Ah, here it is!

The Warden: "He said he summoned you and bound you to a wolf."

Lady of the Forest: "And so he did. Witherfang and I are bound as one being. But such powerful magic could not be accomplished without Zathrian's own blood."

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[TEWR]

She's doing what she thinks is best for Merrill, I don't see why this is a negative. If anything it means her fear for what may happen to Merrill and others as a result of her pursuits outways even her concern for Dalish custom. That's rather big for a keeper.

It's a contract. Whatever intentions one may have, one is bound by the contract to do what they agreed to do.

She should've made it clear PRIOR to Hawke and party killing the Varterral to Merrill that she would leave it to Hawke to decide whether or not she gets the Arulin'holm. Then those would've been the terms. But instead she made one set of terms and then changed them at the last minute.

So yes, it's a big negative on Marethari's character. It does a lot of damage to her credibility.

I'm thinking on how to address your other points. I disagree that the only irrational thing Marethari did was becoming an Abomination. It was certainly irrational, but not the only thing.

[lobi]

It's true what Fox says.
Why did Zathrian have to Die? He used his blood as part of the ritual not just for mana. Elves have always had magic blood is naturally produced, not like Lyrium which humans use as a drug. Blood writing is the last vestages of a blood culture.
Jowen learnt from books. Orsino claims to have learnt from books. It was offered by Conners Demon to the Warden. Knowledge Power, Admiration and Sex was offered. Does having sex make one a Demonic sex machine? Hands up who took the sex, lol....... Guys? c.mon, I can't be the only one. I kinda wandered off the subject there huh.

Anyway like I said before.
It'a not about how wrong blood magic is or how virtuous self sacrifice is, the reasons why have nought to do with it. Merril left it caged, Marethari freed it. It's that simple.

Modifié par lobi, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

Ah, so apparently it's wrong of people to hold a viewpoint that isn't "Merrill's wrong because I say so!"? It's wrong for us to see her as not being stupid?

Yes, because I say so.

Sharn01 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

Its funny how so many people who hate Merrill for risking her own life to make things better for her people seem to be the same ones who are perfectly fine with TIM mass murdering millions of human colonists with eezo exposure in an attempt to create a few dozen biotics.

Oh, I'm far from okay with that.

lobi wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, it always amuses me to see the lengths Merrill fanboys go to justify her stupidity.

Never change, BSN.

Not a Merril fan. However. The caged Demon spoke to both Merril and Marethari in their dreams.
Merril got information from the Demon and it remained caged. Merril was safe as long as it remained caged. 
Marethari freed it from a centuries old prison and took it into herself. How is this the most secure option?
It'a not about how wrong blood magic is or how virtuous self sacrifice is, the reasons why have nought to do with it. Merril left it caged, Marethari freed it. It's that simple.

Merrill was also going to release it, although unknowingly. The only reason Marethari took the demon in her is because she wanted to spare her daughter that fate.

[lobi]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Merrill was also going to release it, although unknowingly. The only reason Marethari took the demon in her is because she wanted to spare her daughter that fate.

Supposition. That kind of rational got a Keeper possesed once. Or so I hear.

Modifié par lobi, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[TEWR]

Merrill was also going to release it, although unknowingly. The only reason Marethari took the demon in her is because she wanted to spare her daughter that fate.

No she wasn't. The Eluvians link to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade as Morrigan tells us, and Marethari makes it clear in both the short story and the game that Audacity was sundered from the Fade (in a manner much like Justice was in Awakening).

Also, Merrill is more like Marethari's adopted daughter, and she doesn't tell Hawke how she knows all this information when she made it clear several times over that she wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians. Which means even doing a shred of research on them.

Seriously, how would Marethari come to this vital bit of information when Merrill herself -- and she spent 7 years researching the thing with all manner of lore and knowledge -- couldn't?

Because the demon got inside Marethari's head, both literally and figuratively.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She's doing what she thinks is best for Merrill, I don't see why this is a negative. If anything it means her fear for what may happen to Merrill and others as a result of her pursuits outways even her concern for Dalish custom. That's rather big for a keeper.

It's a contract. Whatever intentions one may have, one is bound by the contract to do what they agreed to do.

She should've made it clear PRIOR to Hawke and party killing the Varterral to Merrill that she would leave it to Hawke to decide whether or not she gets the Arulin'holm. Then those would've been the terms. But instead she made one set of terms and then changed them at the last minute.

So yes, it's a big negative on Marethari's character. It does a lot of damage to her credibility.

I'm thinking on how to address your other points. I disagree that the only irrational thing Marethari did was becoming an Abomination. It was certainly irrational, but not the only thing.

On the contrary, it shows that she cares more about Merrill and the consequences of what she's doing than for the dalish rituals.    She's willing to break her own rules for that.  It increases her credibility.

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

[bleetman]

Oh, this'll be fun.

At any rate, as far as I see it Marethari is responsible, yes. So is Merrill, and Hawke. If one or more is somehow more responsible than the other/s, that's not a distinction I'd want to try and make, given that none of the above were acting maliciously.

Modifié par bleetman, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[lobi]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

Fear and Arrogance are what drive Marethari, nothing rational about that.
It'a not about how wrong blood magic is or how virtuous self sacrifice is, the reasons why have nought to do with it. Merril left it caged, Marethari freed it. Marethari is at fault.

[The dead fish]

bleetman wrote...

Oh, this'll be fun.

At any rate, as far as I see it Marethari is responsible, yes. So is Merrill, and Hawke. If one or more is somehow more responsible than the other/s, that's not a distinction I'd want to try and make.

Wow, someone who thinks like me. I though I was alone.

Marethari and Merril pay both the price of their pride, and are both responsible. It's rather irelevant  to debate who is the most stupid on this matter, more responsible than the other. But well, it's still funny to read.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:58 .

[Nerevar-as]

Love guided Marethatri. She cared more about Merrill than herself os even the clan. Merrill knew the demon might betray her that last time and took Hawke along so if it happened they could slay it. Marethari assumed the same and chose to sacrifice herslef for Merrill. If she hadn´t cared about Merrill all she had to do wait until she was possessed and kill the abomination then.

[jlb524]

Haha, yeah.

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

Nothing she does makes sense from Act 2 onward.

Modifié par jlb524, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:07 .

[AlexXIV]

Joy Divison wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am still in the opinion the story doesn't come across as the writers intended. I have a hard time to believe that the moral of Merrill's story is 'it's the keeper's fault'. I may be wrong here but usually you would expect Merrill's pride and (even if mild) recklessness persueing her goals comes biting her butt. But it comes biting the Keeper's butt. I think the point was to show that Merrill's actions led to the Keeper's death. Not that the Keeper was the biggest fool of the clan. Somehow I have the feeling that the person(s) responsible for writing the dalish in DA keep overlooking in stuff and making logic jumps. It may be because the writers usually know more than the readers/players. I can only say it doesn't make sense to me, and I can only assume what they wanted to say with it.

I'm pretty sure the writers have a better grasp of their intentions than you do.

I can't remeber the last time I read anything which suggested a black/white story was superior to one which showed ambiguity and compelled people to think rather than easily connect the dots.

Huh, the writers have a better grasp of their intentions than I do ... thank you for stating the obvious. Did I ever doubt that? If so then that's new to me. Because afaik I never said 'the writers don't know their own intentions' or anything like that.

Secondly, it's not even ambigious. It is all the keeper's fault, based on facts. The only reason we can even say anything against Merrill is because she is using bloodmagic and dealing with a demon. That something bad has to come from it is a pure assumption. They wanted to write it ambigious probably, but it's not, because Merrill isn't doing anything wrong unless you use the keeper's words against Merrill. And since the keeper is the fool in this play I doubt her word weighs much.

Especially, and now comes the worst part, the keeper is sure that Hawke can't help the dreamer. For the keeper the best solution is to tranquil him. But my Hawke knew better and saved him. At this point the keeper could have learned something. She could have learned to trust Hawke more than her own knowledge. But did she? No she still thinks she can do better by letting a demon taking her over and makes herself the biggest fool of DA2. Worse than Anders actually.

The story is not ambigious, all points to Marethari being at fault. The only reason we partly blame Merrill is because we somehow believe that her dealing with demons and bloodmagic must have bad consequences. Which is and was never more than an opinion. Because we are so genre savy that we know there should be a moral to it. But in real life there isn't always a moral to everything. Good intentions may lead to bad things and good things may come from selfish intentions.

So basically if you go about it without bias towards either bloodmagic or demons then Merrill never did anything wrong. It's not ambigious. What I am saying is that I think there was supposed to be a moral to it but there isn't. And if the writers disagree they can always say so. It's not like they have not explained stuff that people got wrong before.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:19 .

[AlexXIV]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Love guided Marethatri. She cared more about Merrill than herself os even the clan. Merrill knew the demon might betray her that last time and took Hawke along so if it happened they could slay it. Marethari assumed the same and chose to sacrifice herslef for Merrill. If she hadn´t cared about Merrill all she had to do wait until she was possessed and kill the abomination then.

Love is ever foolish. It would be a better excuse though if she wasn't the keeper, or if she stepped down or sent the clan away. She failed her job as keeper though and there isn't any valid excuse. Not even love.

[The dead fish]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[General User]

Yeah, but... remember the part where it's a trap demon?

Modifié par General User, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:17 .

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

Oh, this'll be fun.

At any rate, as far as I see it Marethari is responsible, yes. So is Merrill, and Hawke. If one or more is somehow more responsible than the other/s, that's not a distinction I'd want to try and make, given that none of the above were acting maliciously.

HEY. Quit being so reasonable, there's no place for your clear-thinking wide-perspective nonsense here!

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...

Yeah, but... remember the part where it's a trap demon?

Demons ain't evil, just misunderstood.

[AlexXIV]

Sylvianus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Same reason Hawke didn't leave.

[TEWR]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Same reason Hawke didn't leave.

She had a big estate filled with golden statues and a crazy **** Knight Commander threatening her to do her duty to protect Kirkwall?

Oh wait! You meant the plot.... my mistake.