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[TJPags]

x0hn0th3r4nc0rx wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Oh, and btw - what happens to the mirror at the end?  I don't recall (seriously, I don't).

The friendship path ends with her concluding that things would've been better if her clan listened to her since she was just trying to help them and she keeps the mirror in her house.

The rivalry path ends with her smashing the mirror and concluding that Hawke/her clan was right the entire time; she views the mirror as a dangerous object and asks Hawke what she should do with her life now.

Thank you.

So basically, at the end of the day, even Merrill chose not to use the mirror, or do anything with it.

So how does this in any way equate to her being right?

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Same reason Hawke didn't leave.

She had a big estate filled with golden statues and a crazy **** Knight Commander threatening her to do her duty to protect Kirkwall?

Oh wait! You meant the plot.... my mistake.

Yeah well they were rich, the Blight was defeated and to be honest Ferelden was even a better place with Blight than Kirkwall without. So why'd they stay? There were too many family members still alive and Hawke figured why not stay here where risk of losing them is so much higher. And turned out Hawke was right.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

So how does this in any way equate to her being right?

Considering that Merrill can't restore the Eluvian because she exhausted all her options, and the only sentient being who claimed to have any knowledge of its construction was defeated, what do you expect? Merrill took a risk because the possible goal was worthwhile, and Marethari prevented Merrill from finding out whether the Eluvian could hold the promise of changing the lives of the elves for the better or not.

I still don't see any reason to hold it against Merrill that she was pro-active and risked her life on technology that may have been able to help the People irrevocably.

[The dead fish]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Same reason Hawke didn't leave.

What reason ? Dalatians don't stay at the same place after a while. That's their fundamentals traditions, their policy decided by the keeper.

Also one of the basic tasks of the keeper is to set the course and the date.

Marethari remained one year. What was already considered too much time by the Dalatians.  And they had already spent too much time in Kirkwall, because they were forced to wait Hawk, the envoy of flemeth. They had a debt to Flemeth to pay. So they waited. But after they have paid, and that Merrill has ceased to be a nuisance since she was adopted by Hawk, they had no reason to stay. One may say that they could have stayed one year again. But six years ? What .the. hell ? It's anything, any clan Dalatian wouldn't remain as long in territory and not at all explained in Act 3. What were they still there?

The settlement is certainly not possible, no clan is allowed by humans.

It is as if the script had ignored the lore, just to serve the clan as feed to the wolves when needed. But I ask first the question.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:34 .

[AlexXIV]

Sylvianus wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Same reason Hawke didn't leave.

What reason ? Dalatians don't stay at the same place after a while. That's their fundamentals traditions, their policy decided by the keeper.

Also one of the basic tasks of the keeper is to set the course and the date.

Marethari remained one year. What was already considered too much time by the Dalatians.  And they had already spent too much time in Kirkwall, because they were forced to wait Hawk, the envoy of flemeth. They had a debt to Flemeth to pay. So they waited. But after they have paid, and that Merrill has ceased to be a nuisance since she was adopted by Hawk, they had no reason to stay. One may say that they could have stayed one year again. But six years ? What .the. hell ? It's anything, any clan Dalatian wouldn't remain as long in territory and not at all explained in Act 3. What were they still there?

The settlement is certainly not possible, no clan is allowed by humans.

It is as if the script had ignored the lore, just to serve the clan as feed to the wolves when needed. But I ask first the question.

It was sarcasm. Or irony? Anyway. She stayed because that's how the story goes. Despite our ideas of what makes more sense.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[The dead fish]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

If there is a clear rationality, I want to know  WHY SHE DIDN'T LEFT KIRKWALL after acte 1  ?  Just to keep an eye on Merrill ? Really ? all these years ? I don't believe that at all... <_<

Have you any idea ?

Same reason Hawke didn't leave.

What reason ? Dalatians don't stay at the same place after a while. That's their fundamentals traditions, their policy decided by the keeper.

Also one of the basic tasks of the keeper is to set the course and the date.

Marethari remained one year. What was already considered too much time by the Dalatians.  And they had already spent too much time in Kirkwall, because they were forced to wait Hawk, the envoy of flemeth. They had a debt to Flemeth to pay. So they waited. But after they have paid, and that Merrill has ceased to be a nuisance since she was adopted by Hawk, they had no reason to stay. One may say that they could have stayed one year again. But six years ? What .the. hell ? It's anything, any clan Dalatian wouldn't remain as long in territory and not at all explained in Act 3. What were they still there?

The settlement is certainly not possible, no clan is allowed by humans.

It is as if the script had ignored the lore, just to serve the clan as feed to the wolves when needed. But I ask first the question.

It was sarcasm. Or irony? Anyway. She stayed because that's how the story goes. Despite our ideas of what makes more sense.

Oh, sorry. I was so focused on the question I did not notice the " tone ".

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So how does this in any way equate to her being right?

Considering that Merrill can't restore the Eluvian because she exhausted all her options, and the only sentient being who claimed to have any knowledge of its construction was defeated, what do you expect? Merrill took a risk because the possible goal was worthwhile, and Marethari prevented Merrill from finding out whether the Eluvian could hold the promise of changing the lives of the elves for the better or not.

I still don't see any reason to hold it against Merrill that she was pro-active and risked her life on technology that may have been able to help the People irrevocably.

I hold it against her for a very simple reason:

She was told, by her keeper, not to do it.  She refused to listen.

Who's fault is that, if not hers?

[Bayz]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yes it's true. And here's why.

1. She condemns Merrill for using blood magic. Yet how do you think she was able to prolong Mahariel's life after he/she was tainted and inevetiably die or be recruited? The poison travels through the blood after all. And the Dalish aren't the Chantry, they have no laws explicitly forbidding blood magic.

2. She 'warns' the whole clan about Merrill and demonizes her(pun intended) to them. Which leads to Pol's death, and she acts smug about it. Merrill grieved more for Pol than she did. Merrill wasn't even living with them anymore so there was no reason to warn.

3. Marethari deliberately becomes an abomination to protect Merrill because she knew what the mirror would do if completed, when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start. And this little screw up can lead to the death of her whole tribe.

The whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari were just fair and honest.

I never thought I'd say this but Zathrian had better character than she does.

Ahh...we've been through this already many many times. It all boils down to if you think an elven version of internet is worth a whole clan's lives...

Let me put it this way, Did you side with Branka in Origins?

[Heimdall]

jlb524 wrote...

Haha, yeah.

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't doubt Marethari didn't make the best decisions, but there's a clear rationality behind them.

Nothing she does makes sense from Act 2 onward.

I never said it was the best rationality, but most of the things she does do make a sort of sense, given her knowledge.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:50 .

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So how does this in any way equate to her being right?

Considering that Merrill can't restore the Eluvian because she exhausted all her options, and the only sentient being who claimed to have any knowledge of its construction was defeated, what do you expect? Merrill took a risk because the possible goal was worthwhile, and Marethari prevented Merrill from finding out whether the Eluvian could hold the promise of changing the lives of the elves for the better or not.

I still don't see any reason to hold it against Merrill that she was pro-active and risked her life on technology that may have been able to help the People irrevocably.

I hold it against her for a very simple reason:

She was told, by her keeper, not to do it.  She refused to listen.

Who's fault is that, if not hers?

She listened. And she thought about it. And she concluded the keeper was wrong. It turned out the keeper was quite the fool. Not following fool's advice doesn't seem to be a fault to me. Not that fools can't be accidently right. But to our knowledge no advice ever given by the keeper turned out to be a good one. Maybe Merrill just knew the keeper better than we do. Not such a stretch considering all and everything.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:53 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Who's fault is that, if not hers?

So you're blaming Merrill for exercising her free will? Merrill was willing to risk her own life for this endeavor, and hers alone. It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari decided to endanger every member of her clan by letting a demon loose into her body and become an abomination simply because she thought the restored Eluvian might hurt Merrill. Given that we know Merrill actually studied lore and extrapolated information from the shard, and we have Marethari making it clear that her stance is based on her assumptions about what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted, I put my trust in the person who actually did the research over the person who is following their own paranoia. To say it's Merrill's fault that Marethari committed actions of her own free condoms her for the behavior of another grown adult. Marethari was the Keeper, she had responsibilities, and she shirked those responsibilities and put the lives of every member of her clan in danger.

[Heimdall]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yes it's true. And here's why.

1. She condemns Merrill for using blood magic. Yet how do you think she was able to prolong Mahariel's life after he/she was tainted and inevetiably die or be recruited? The poison travels through the blood after all. And the Dalish aren't the Chantry, they have no laws explicitly forbidding blood magic.

2. She 'warns' the whole clan about Merrill and demonizes her(pun intended) to them. Which leads to Pol's death, and she acts smug about it. Merrill grieved more for Pol than she did. Merrill wasn't even living with them anymore so there was no reason to warn.

3. Marethari deliberately becomes an abomination to protect Merrill because she knew what the mirror would do if completed, when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start. And this little screw up can lead to the death of her whole tribe.

The whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari were just fair and honest.

I never thought I'd say this but Zathrian had better character than she does.

Ahh...we've been through this already many many times. It all boils down to if you think an elven version of internet is worth a whole clan's lives...

Let me put it this way, Did you side with Branka in Origins?

It wasn't Merrill's fault that the whole clan died; they attacked her. The comparison to the Anvil is completely ridiculous, as well; the eluvian didn't require souls to be sacrificed to work.

No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Who's fault is that, if not hers?

So you're blaming Merrill for exercising her free will? Merrill was willing to risk her own life for this endeavor, and hers alone. It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari decided to endanger every member of her clan by letting a demon loose into her body and become an abomination simply because she thought the restored Eluvian might hurt Merrill. Given that we know Merrill actually studied lore and extrapolated information from the shard, and we have Marethari making it clear that her stance is based on her assumptions about what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted, I put my trust in the person who actually did the research over the person who is following their own paranoia. To say it's Merrill's fault that Marethari committed actions of her own free condoms her for the behavior of another grown adult. Marethari was the Keeper, she had responsibilities, and she shirked those responsibilities and put the lives of every member of her clan in danger.

Not really arguing your point, but I'd say the eluvian's killing of two clan members puts Marethari's concerns as somewhat more valid than simple paranoia.

On a related note, I don't really understand the assumption that Merrill knew more about elven lore on eluvians than the keeper and that Marethari was wrong about the mirror allowing the demon through.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:56 .

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yes it's true. And here's why.

1. She condemns Merrill for using blood magic. Yet how do you think she was able to prolong Mahariel's life after he/she was tainted and inevetiably die or be recruited? The poison travels through the blood after all. And the Dalish aren't the Chantry, they have no laws explicitly forbidding blood magic.

2. She 'warns' the whole clan about Merrill and demonizes her(pun intended) to them. Which leads to Pol's death, and she acts smug about it. Merrill grieved more for Pol than she did. Merrill wasn't even living with them anymore so there was no reason to warn.

3. Marethari deliberately becomes an abomination to protect Merrill because she knew what the mirror would do if completed, when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start. And this little screw up can lead to the death of her whole tribe.

The whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari were just fair and honest.

I never thought I'd say this but Zathrian had better character than she does.

Ahh...we've been through this already many many times. It all boils down to if you think an elven version of internet is worth a whole clan's lives...

Let me put it this way, Did you side with Branka in Origins?

It wasn't Merrill's fault that the whole clan died; they attacked her. The comparison to the Anvil is completely ridiculous, as well; the eluvian didn't require souls to be sacrificed to work.

No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

A tainted mirror killed members of this clan. That's why Merrill cleansed it. The mirrors as such used to be means of transport, not assassins. My Warden even followed Morrigan through one. Even though this part of the story was probably retconned.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 novembre 2011 - 11:56 .

[TJPags]

I don't even know who to quote here, so I won't bother:

I love that people see nothing wrong with someone simply choosing to disobey a person they are SUPPOSED to listen to.

I wonder - if a 14 year old child decided they wanted to take their parents car for a ride, and was told no, would it also be okay if that child thought about it for a while a decided, "hey, my parents are wrong"?

It's really that simple - she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. She chose not to. That is wrong.

It has nothing to do with what Maretheri did or didn't do. It has everything to do with what Merrill didn't do - listen.

But hey, I guess we all go through our "parents are idiots" phase. Luckily, for most people, it doesn't lead to the death of their entire family.

[Bayz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

It wasn't Merrill's fault that the whole clan died; they attacked her. The comparison to the Anvil is completely ridiculous, as well; the eluvian didn't require souls to be sacrificed to work.

She was warned, she knew that the two explorers who found it were tainted by it, she knew it had demons in it but you imply she couldn't even minimally figure out what would happen if she kept her quest going?

So if the Anvil didn't actually needed souls to run, you wouldn't mind that Branka relentlessly allowed all her clan to be slaughtered by traps, the women transformed into broodmothers and all for the weapon?

Well here we go, we are not going to agree as I haven't agreed to the other Merril Apologists before. She knew it was coming, her duty was to follow her clan and become the next keeper (and maybe then study the Eluvian all she wanted, it is not like Marethari was going to outlive her) after that, no bloodshed, no problems, no guilt.

Instead she decided to keep pursuing it, leave her clan, and unhear all the warnings and keep going on, for what? For a mirror that allows her to communicate with other clans.

No we are not saying is a mirror that will allow elves to prosper, reborn as a civilization or give them power to keep the humans at bay, we are not talking of a source of unlimmited food, something that will increase their fertility, cure their medicines, make humans realise they shouldn't be mistreated...no we are talking of an elven AOL.

Internet is not worth human lives IMO, the Eluvian wasn't worth elven lives IMO

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yes it's true. And here's why.

1. She condemns Merrill for using blood magic. Yet how do you think she was able to prolong Mahariel's life after he/she was tainted and inevetiably die or be recruited? The poison travels through the blood after all. And the Dalish aren't the Chantry, they have no laws explicitly forbidding blood magic.

2. She 'warns' the whole clan about Merrill and demonizes her(pun intended) to them. Which leads to Pol's death, and she acts smug about it. Merrill grieved more for Pol than she did. Merrill wasn't even living with them anymore so there was no reason to warn.

3. Marethari deliberately becomes an abomination to protect Merrill because she knew what the mirror would do if completed, when arguably could have just told Merrill right from the start. And this little screw up can lead to the death of her whole tribe.

The whole situation could have been avoided if Marethari were just fair and honest.

I never thought I'd say this but Zathrian had better character than she does.

Ahh...we've been through this already many many times. It all boils down to if you think an elven version of internet is worth a whole clan's lives...

Let me put it this way, Did you side with Branka in Origins?

It wasn't Merrill's fault that the whole clan died; they attacked her. The comparison to the Anvil is completely ridiculous, as well; the eluvian didn't require souls to be sacrificed to work.

No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

A tainted mirror killed members of this clan. That's why Merrill cleansed it. The mirrors as such used to be means of transport, not assassins. My Warden even followed Morrigan through one. Even though this part of the story was probably retconned.

And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

I don't even know who to quote here, so I won't bother:

I love that people see nothing wrong with someone simply choosing to disobey a person they are SUPPOSED to listen to.

I wonder - if a 14 year old child decided they wanted to take their parents car for a ride, and was told no, would it also be okay if that child thought about it for a while a decided, "hey, my parents are wrong"?

It's really that simple - she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. She chose not to. That is wrong.

It has nothing to do with what Maretheri did or didn't do. It has everything to do with what Merrill didn't do - listen.

But hey, I guess we all go through our "parents are idiots" phase. Luckily, for most people, it doesn't lead to the death of their entire family.

I am rather worried that you think obedience is something ultimately positive. And Merrill is not a child. Marethari herself literally gives Hawke the responsibility for Merrill. At this point her part in it was over. It was up to Hawke to watch out for Merrill. But she couldn't let go, that's what went wrong. That's why I say it's not even ambigious the keeper did everything wrong. And she paid for it, so maybe after all everyone got what they deserve.

[General User]

That the demon Merrill dealt with was a pride demon is, I think, no coincidence.  In her pride, Merrill believed that she knew better than her elders, she acted in accordance with that belief.

In the fullness of time, Merrill might have become a Keeper herself, and thus make decisions about things like the eluvian.   But Merrill was not a Keeper, she was a First, her proper role was to be humble and obedient to her Keeper. She did not, could not... wait.

So, in addition to her pride, Merrill was impatient.   All the more to her shame.  Did she, who was so obsessed with the history of the elves, forget that impatience is the hallmark of the quickening the shemlen brought to The People?

Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:09 .

[Bayz]

TJPags wrote...

But hey, I guess we all go through our "parents are idiots" phase. Luckily, for most people, it doesn't lead to the death of their entire family.

T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U

May the Gods bring love, peace and success to your whole life and the ones you decide to walk your path with.

And this is one of the very few posts in this community I am not being sarcastic.

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.