545 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

]No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

That's because Marethari is too ignorant to understand that Merrill successfully cleansed the mirror, and it is in no way a threat.

And how does Merrill know her cleansing was successful?  Or that the taint was the only thing making he mirror dangerous?  Honestly, the fact that a demon was speaking to her, wanting her to do it, should have set off all sort of warning bells.

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

]No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

That's because Marethari is too ignorant to understand that Merrill successfully cleansed the mirror, and it is in no way a threat.

And how does Merrill know her cleansing was successful?  Or that the taint was the only thing making he mirror dangerous?  Honestly, the fact that a demon was speaking to her, wanting her to do it, should have set off all sort of warning bells.

And how do you know it was unsuccessful? This is going to be a repetitive discussion if we base it on assumptions instead of facts. Fact is Marethari screwed up, not Merrill. In an alternative reality maybe Merrill screwed up because the keeper let it happen, but we don't know

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

True, but we do know that the demon that was leading Merrill on had malicious intent.  I can't imagine anything good coming of it.

[Bayz]

Yeah, just a bunch of elves she was supposed to look after, dead, not ill effect at all...

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

]No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

That's because Marethari is too ignorant to understand that Merrill successfully cleansed the mirror, and it is in no way a threat.

And how does Merrill know her cleansing was successful?  Or that the taint was the only thing making he mirror dangerous?  Honestly, the fact that a demon was speaking to her, wanting her to do it, should have set off all sort of warning bells.

And how do you know it was unsuccessful? This is going to be a repetitive discussion if we base it on assumptions instead of facts. Fact is Marethari screwed up, not Merrill. In an alternative reality maybe Merrill screwed up because the keeper let it happen, but we don't know

We do know that the demon was up to know good, or do you really believe it was benignly leading Merrill on the finish the eluvian?  I trust the knowledge of the trained Keeper to the one that abandoned her education on matters of the Elvhen.

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

True, but we do know that the demon that was leading Merrill on had malicious intent.  I can't imagine anything good coming of it.

Well it could still be that the moral of the story is that the keeper should have trusted Merrill. That's basically what Merrill complains about after the fact. She should have trusted her. Or Hawke. But the keeper obviously only trusted herself. Maybe that's HER sin as much as pride was Merrill's.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

So since we don't SEE bad actions from Merrill's actions, they must have been okay?  I mean, you even agree it was probably too much for her to handle.

She was told to stop by a person she was supposed to listen to.  She should have stopped.  Once she became Keeper, she could have done what she wanted.

She didn't listen.  And simply because she didn't get sucked into the Black City, or tainted, or become an abomination and kill half of Kirkwall, it gets excused?  That's like excusing the 15 year old who goes for a joyride because they didn't kill anyone.

[The dead fish]

To be fair, Marethari really sucks as a keeper. God,  I would not put my fate in her hands.

Also the problem with marethari, is that she is totally incomprehensible and not at all readable for the player in my opinion. First, she wants Merril to leave, okay, but she refuses to explain to Hawk why in details. A bit messy. The first time I was facepalmed.

In the end, her gesture is also completely incomprehensible, almost incoherent. If you want to do what you want, leave the clan. Okay, noooooo Merril don't do that. " errr.  From the point of view of the player, ' what the **** is she is doing ?

She dies, no real explanations for her sacrifice, difficult for the player to understand what really was at stake.

And finally, she has clearly lost sight of the interests of her clan, which is the worst for me. She decided to do something without thinking about consequences after her death.  She knowed it could be end badly, but no,
She did not inform anyone of her plans, did not prepare her clan for a future without her. Where is the wisdom in all this ? 

Too deep affection for Merrill ? if that's the case it was foolish to abandon her, cutting off any opportunity to influence her, to help her some years ago.

And above all, what is this keeper who doesn't care about the past, the pride of her people ? I am pro Dalatian since DAO and her passivity did offense me.  Hell, the situation for the Dalatians hasn't changed, still difficult today. What are you doing to save them, to change their lives, their fate, keeper ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:18 .

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

]No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

That's because Marethari is too ignorant to understand that Merrill successfully cleansed the mirror, and it is in no way a threat.

And how does Merrill know her cleansing was successful?  Or that the taint was the only thing making he mirror dangerous?  Honestly, the fact that a demon was speaking to her, wanting her to do it, should have set off all sort of warning bells.

And how do you know it was unsuccessful? This is going to be a repetitive discussion if we base it on assumptions instead of facts. Fact is Marethari screwed up, not Merrill. In an alternative reality maybe Merrill screwed up because the keeper let it happen, but we don't know

We do know that the demon was up to know good, or do you really believe it was benignly leading Merrill on the finish the eluvian?  I trust the knowledge of the trained Keeper to the one that abandoned her education on matters of the Elvhen.

Before this Hawke met demons in the fade and wrestled the dreamer boy from them even though Marethari thought it is impossible, even for her. At this point she should at least have trusted in Hawke to be able to deal with it, if she could not trust Merrill. We don't know how Hawke pulled it off, maybe willpower. Anyway, Hawke proved he/she is strong enough. That's how I see it anyway. I think Marethari is not the first in history who thinks she is smarter or wiser or better than others and the only one who can resolve a sitiuation and be wrong about it. Despite experience and wisdom.

[General User]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well it could still be that the moral of the story is that the keeper should have trusted Merrill. That's basically what Merrill complains about after the fact. She should have trusted her. Or Hawke. But the keeper obviously only trusted herself. Maybe that's HER sin as much as pride was Merrill's.

The inability to trust isn't a sin; it's a tragedy.

And it doesn't really apply to Marethari.  She trusted Hawke with watching out for someone very precious to her.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

So since we don't SEE bad actions from Merrill's actions, they must have been okay?  I mean, you even agree it was probably too much for her to handle.

She was told to stop by a person she was supposed to listen to.  She should have stopped.  Once she became Keeper, she could have done what she wanted.

She didn't listen.  And simply because she didn't get sucked into the Black City, or tainted, or become an abomination and kill half of Kirkwall, it gets excused?  That's like excusing the 15 year old who goes for a joyride because they didn't kill anyone.

I vaguely remember a quote from a cheesy martial arts movie. Forgot the name. A good apprentice needs to learn to follow rules, a good master must learn when to break them. Something along that.

Aside from that you condemn Merrill for something that didn't happen and you lay blame on her for something someone else did. Nobody can know what would have happened if things went different. I mean if Merrill had bad intentions you could at least use that against her.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[The dead fish]

General User wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well it could still be that the moral of the story is that the keeper should have trusted Merrill. That's basically what Merrill complains about after the fact. She should have trusted her. Or Hawke. But the keeper obviously only trusted herself. Maybe that's HER sin as much as pride was Merrill's.

The inability to trust isn't a sin; it's a tragedy.

And it doesn't really apply to Marethari.  She trusted Hawke with watching out for someone very precious to her.

She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well it could still be that the moral of the story is that the keeper should have trusted Merrill. That's basically what Merrill complains about after the fact. She should have trusted her. Or Hawke. But the keeper obviously only trusted herself. Maybe that's HER sin as much as pride was Merrill's.

The inability to trust isn't a sin; it's a tragedy.

And it doesn't really apply to Marethari.  She trusted Hawke with watching out for someone very precious to her.

No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a demon.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:29 .

[Bayz]

Child wants bike, Dad doesn't buy bike because Child have had bad marks at school, but that he will buy the bike if Child applies himself a bit more in his studies, Child brings his Serbian Death Squad friends and asks Dad for the bike again slightly louder, Dad says that he would not give it to him as he had bad marks at school, but in the future if child works a bit harder he will buy the bike.

Child has his Serbian Death Squad mates to break Dad's legs and take his wallet so he could buy the bike. He could obviously ride the bike without the stupid marks at school being right so obviously Dad had it coming.

Fin

Ahhh puberty

[General User]

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

So since we don't SEE bad actions from Merrill's actions, they must have been okay?  I mean, you even agree it was probably too much for her to handle.

She was told to stop by a person she was supposed to listen to.  She should have stopped.  Once she became Keeper, she could have done what she wanted.

She didn't listen.  And simply because she didn't get sucked into the Black City, or tainted, or become an abomination and kill half of Kirkwall, it gets excused?  That's like excusing the 15 year old who goes for a joyride because they didn't kill anyone.

I vaguely remember a quote from a cheesy martial arts movie. Forgot the name. A good apprentice needs to learn to follow rules, a good master must learn when to break them. Something along that.

Aside from that you condemn Merrill for something that didn't happen and you lay blame on her for something someone else did. Nobody can know what would have happened if things went different. I mean if Merrill had bad intentions you could at least use that against her.

No, I don't condemn her for something someone else did - I condemn her for what SHE did.

When I was growing up, my parents had rules.  I had to follow them.  As my parents told me, when I had my own place and was an adult, I could make my own rules.

My first place was an apartment - there were rules laid down by the landlord.  Some foolish.  I still had to listen.

I currently have a job.  I frequently think my bosses are foolish.  I still have to follow their rules.

Get it?  Merrill was supposed to listen.  I condemn her for failing to do so.  It's that simple.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So how does this in any way equate to her being right?

Considering that Merrill can't restore the Eluvian because she exhausted all her options, and the only sentient being who claimed to have any knowledge of its construction was defeated, what do you expect? Merrill took a risk because the possible goal was worthwhile, and Marethari prevented Merrill from finding out whether the Eluvian could hold the promise of changing the lives of the elves for the better or not.

I still don't see any reason to hold it against Merrill that she was pro-active and risked her life on technology that may have been able to help the People irrevocably.

I hold it against her for a very simple reason:

She was told, by her keeper, not to do it.  She refused to listen.

Who's fault is that, if not hers?

because we're always supposed to do what we're told....

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

]No, but the eluvian does have a history of corrupting and killing members of this very clan.  Understandably, Marethari wants nothing to do with it.

That's because Marethari is too ignorant to understand that Merrill successfully cleansed the mirror, and it is in no way a threat.

And how does Merrill know her cleansing was successful?  Or that the taint was the only thing making he mirror dangerous?  Honestly, the fact that a demon was speaking to her, wanting her to do it, should have set off all sort of warning bells.

And how do you know it was unsuccessful? This is going to be a repetitive discussion if we base it on assumptions instead of facts. Fact is Marethari screwed up, not Merrill. In an alternative reality maybe Merrill screwed up because the keeper let it happen, but we don't know

We do know that the demon was up to know good, or do you really believe it was benignly leading Merrill on the finish the eluvian?  I trust the knowledge of the trained Keeper to the one that abandoned her education on matters of the Elvhen.

Before this Hawke met demons in the fade and wrestled the dreamer boy from them even though Marethari thought it is impossible, even for her. At this point she should at least have trusted in Hawke to be able to deal with it, if she could not trust Merrill. We don't know how Hawke pulled it off, maybe willpower. Anyway, Hawke proved he/she is strong enough. That's how I see it anyway. I think Marethari is not the first in history who thinks she is smarter or wiser or better than others and the only one who can resolve a sitiuation and be wrong about it. Despite experience and wisdom.

Hawke was not being tested on knowledge of ancient elven artifacts.  You're right, Hawke was tested on willpower if anything.  However, Marethari did trust Hawke to do all that was possible to save Feynriel.  She just did not believe the best result was possible at all for anyone.  If anything that's pessimism, or valid doubt considering the strength of the demons, not pride.  Marethari knew she was more experienced than Merrill,  and she knew she was better versed in the lore of the Elvhen.  What we do not know is that she was wrong.

[The dead fish]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.[/quote] She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust? [/quote]
I couldn't because the game don't allow me to do that, ( well at least I killed her at the end ) but you are missing the point.

Someone as valuable does not deserve to see her fate left in the hands of a stranger. That's not really a good point[/quote]

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:37 .

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

So since we don't SEE bad actions from Merrill's actions, they must have been okay?  I mean, you even agree it was probably too much for her to handle.

She was told to stop by a person she was supposed to listen to.  She should have stopped.  Once she became Keeper, she could have done what she wanted.

She didn't listen.  And simply because she didn't get sucked into the Black City, or tainted, or become an abomination and kill half of Kirkwall, it gets excused?  That's like excusing the 15 year old who goes for a joyride because they didn't kill anyone.

I vaguely remember a quote from a cheesy martial arts movie. Forgot the name. A good apprentice needs to learn to follow rules, a good master must learn when to break them. Something along that.

Aside from that you condemn Merrill for something that didn't happen and you lay blame on her for something someone else did. Nobody can know what would have happened if things went different. I mean if Merrill had bad intentions you could at least use that against her.

No, I don't condemn her for something someone else did - I condemn her for what SHE did.

When I was growing up, my parents had rules.  I had to follow them.  As my parents told me, when I had my own place and was an adult, I could make my own rules.

My first place was an apartment - there were rules laid down by the landlord.  Some foolish.  I still had to listen.

I currently have a job.  I frequently think my bosses are foolish.  I still have to follow their rules.

Get it?  Merrill was supposed to listen.  I condemn her for failing to do so.  It's that simple.

You realize that all the great discoveries that mankind made in history were made by men who wouldn't listen? Don't make me quote MIB.

[Bayz]

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

I know right, I would have killed her and sold her organs but this game doesn't let you roleplay properly. I'm going to rant and cry and say how much I hate this game and love the possibilities of Origins while buying more DLC, and play them while crying...naked...

General User wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Obviously because Hawke has seen a lot in what the Eluvian does, and has a lot of knowledge in old Elven Magic and...uhhh...brain hurts...

[Bayz]

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.[/quote] She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust? [/quote]
I couldn't because the game don't allow me to do that, ( well at least I killed her at the end ) but you are missing the point.

Someone as valuable does not deserve to see her fate left in the hands of a stranger. That's not really a good point[/quote]

[/quote]

She was going to leave the clan. Marethari just left her with a guy who was a friend of Asha'bellanar apparently (and we do not know the relationship between Flemmeth and the elves) instead of leaving her alone. Doesn't seem that out of strecht to me, not that I would do it mind you...

[AlexXIV]

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.