545 réponses à ce sujet

[mcsupersport]

I am in the camp of the Demon played them all, with the biggest taker being Marethari, who by the way was also the biggest idiot of the pair in the end. She screwed up here ENTIRE responsibility to her clan trying to save ONE elf who may not even have needed to be saved since she had Hawks help. How the heck can you take a demon inside yourself when you are the Keeper and abandon your clan all to save one willful and disobedient member??

The Keepers job at that point was to let Merrill reap what she sowed and maybe try to give her all the info she could to mitigate the effects. The only reason I can figure out is the Pride Demon worked on her for years to get the desired effect of having the Keepers body and a way out.

[Bayz]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And?  Whose to say this cleansing worked?  What did Tamlen see in the mirror, but the Black City?  The source of the taint.  I don't understand the notion that the eluvian is a benign device when it can so easily kill.  An eluvian is a powerful and dangerous tool to be using, and I don't think Marethari had all the lore on them, Merrill even less so.  Merrill says the taint was what made the mirror dangerous, but who's to say the eluvian's great power can't hurt unless utilized by someone with an unusually keen understanding of ancient and forgotten magic as Morrigan.

I agree with you that it was dangerous and probably too much too handle for Merrill. Still speculation since we never get to see anything bad happen from Merrill's actions. Unlike the keeper's actions.

So since we don't SEE bad actions from Merrill's actions, they must have been okay?  I mean, you even agree it was probably too much for her to handle.

She was told to stop by a person she was supposed to listen to.  She should have stopped.  Once she became Keeper, she could have done what she wanted.

She didn't listen.  And simply because she didn't get sucked into the Black City, or tainted, or become an abomination and kill half of Kirkwall, it gets excused?  That's like excusing the 15 year old who goes for a joyride because they didn't kill anyone.

I vaguely remember a quote from a cheesy martial arts movie. Forgot the name. A good apprentice needs to learn to follow rules, a good master must learn when to break them. Something along that.

Aside from that you condemn Merrill for something that didn't happen and you lay blame on her for something someone else did. Nobody can know what would have happened if things went different. I mean if Merrill had bad intentions you could at least use that against her.

No, I don't condemn her for something someone else did - I condemn her for what SHE did.

When I was growing up, my parents had rules.  I had to follow them.  As my parents told me, when I had my own place and was an adult, I could make my own rules.

My first place was an apartment - there were rules laid down by the landlord.  Some foolish.  I still had to listen.

I currently have a job.  I frequently think my bosses are foolish.  I still have to follow their rules.

Get it?  Merrill was supposed to listen.  I condemn her for failing to do so.  It's that simple.

You realize that all the great discoveries that mankind made in history were made by men who wouldn't listen? Don't make me quote MIB.

Yeah, but not for men who wouldn't listen and killed all the people their discoveries were supposed to help AFAIK

[General User]

Sylvianus wrote...
I couldn't because the game don't allow me to do that, ( well at least I killed her at the end ) but you are missing the point.

Someone as valuable does not deserve to see her fate left in the hands of a stranger. That's not really a good point

When someone you love is on a self-destructive path and refuses to get off, people do some extreme things in their desperation to help those they care about.

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.

She trusted Hawke to do what was best for Merrill.  She did not expect Hawke to know anything about ancient Elvhen artifacts.  For that, Marethari stayed.

[AlexXIV]

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.[/quote] She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust? [/quote]
I couldn't because the game don't allow me to do that, ( well at least I killed her at the end ) but you are missing the point.

Someone as valuable does not deserve to see her fate left in the hands of a stranger. That's not really a good point[/quote]

[/quote]
Well everyone expects Hawke to solve problems for no specific reason, but when it counts nobody trusts him/her.

[Forst1999]

TJPags wrote...

No, I don't condemn her for something someone else did - I condemn her for what SHE did.

When I was growing up, my parents had rules.  I had to follow them.  As my parents told me, when I had my own place and was an adult, I could make my own rules.

My first place was an apartment - there were rules laid down by the landlord.  Some foolish.  I still had to listen.

I currently have a job.  I frequently think my bosses are foolish.  I still have to follow their rules.

Get it?  Merrill was supposed to listen.  I condemn her for failing to do so.  It's that simple.

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

[Bayz]

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Yes but we are talking about preserving something that tainted two clan members and has demons in it. Methinks those are quite important points.

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

AlexXIV
wrote...

You realize that all the great discoveries that mankind
made in history were made by men who wouldn't listen? Don't make me
quote MIB.

Yeah, but not for men who wouldn't listen
and killed all the people their discoveries were supposed to help AFAIK

Again,
it was the clan who attacked Merrill, not the other way around. The
only ones to blame for the death of the clan are the members of the clan
themselves.

Yet we fall again to the tale of Child and Dad...

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:47 .

[jlb524]

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

I think it's more than just a job for Merrill...it's her purpose in life.

Finding any ancient elven artifact within ones lifetime would be very difficult...finding one that still actually worked when it was found (before Duncan smashed it all up) is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.  I think it would be dumb of her to pass it up. 

I think it is dumb of Marethari to pass it up because it's apparently 'evil'.  This is why Marethari isn't rational.  The mirror isn't simply dangerous to her...it's evil!

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.

She trusted Hawke to do what was best for Merrill.  She did not expect Hawke to know anything about ancient Elvhen artifacts.  For that, Marethari stayed.

You assume that Hawke needs to know anything about elven artifacts. But they merely went up the hill to talk to a demon. And Hawke has proven to know how to deal with a demon. At least better than Marethari. Also, research and science is not done by people who know everything. Just people who are curious to learn more. However, Marethari didn't give Merrill the chance to learn from her own faults. At least that is unworthy of a keeper, or teacher. At this point latest Marethari was no person of authority anymore. In my opinion she 'lost it' much earler.

Maybe Merrill didn't respect the keeper anymore. But honestly, who does? I don't anyway.

[General User]

AlexXIV wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.

Marethari trusted Hawke with looking out for Merrill and hoped Hawke (and exile) might succeed in turning Merrill from her chosen path.  She was wrong.  It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

Modifié par General User, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[Lazy Jer]

You know what? The anti-Marethari people are right. She took a demon insider herself knowing full well she'd have to be killed to get rid of the demon so that Merrill and Hawke, etc. would have no choice but to murder the entire clan! She wanted that all along, clearly. She's also responsible for acne, earthquakes, starvation, she caused World War One, the War of 1812, and most horribly the last season of Heroes!

Oh by the way I'm being sarcastic. Let's ease up on Marethari just a bit, kids. She made mistakes, sure, she could have been more forthcoming with Merrill about why she didn't want her bumbling around with the mirror, but she's not as bad as some of you are making her out to be.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:51 .

[The dead fish]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

I couldn't because the game don't allow me to do that, ( well at least I killed her at the end ) but you are missing the point.

Someone as valuable does not deserve to see her fate left in the hands of a stranger. That's not really a good point

Well everyone expects Hawke to solve problems for no specific reason, but when it counts nobody trusts him/her.

XDDD

touché sir !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:51 .

[Heimdall]

jlb524 wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

I think it's more than just a job for Merrill...it's her purpose in life.

Finding any ancient elven artifact within ones lifetime would be very difficult...finding one that still actually worked when it was found (before Duncan smashed it all up) is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.  I think it would be dumb of her to pass it up. 

I think it is dumb of Marethari to pass it up because it's apparently 'evil'.  This is why Marethari isn't rational.  The mirror isn't simply dangerous to her...it's evil!

Considering the taint and the demons, pretty much the most absolute forms of evil you'll find in Thedas, are both present in the mirror, I'd definitely call it a valid opinion.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

I think it's more than just a job for Merrill...it's her purpose in life.

Charming...like Branka with the Anvil. Not that it
justifies her one bit.

jlb524 wrote...
Finding any ancient elven artifact within ones lifetime would be very difficult...finding one that still actually worked when it was found (before Duncan smashed it all up) is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.  I think it would be dumb of her to pass it up. 

Did it worked? Didn't know they had Eluvians only to spread the taint in Tevinter. They did think of everything didn't they?

jlb524 wrote...
I think it is dumb of Marethari to pass it up because it's apparently 'evil'.  This is why Marethari isn't rational.  The mirror isn't simply dangerous to her...it's evil!

Yeah it is not as if the Eluvian had actually done any harm to the clan or had potentially powerful corrupting creatures in it...

[Forst1999]

Bayz wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Yes but we are talking about preserving something that tainted two clan members and has demons in it. Methinks those are quite important points.

The taint is easily taken care of. It is not as if the Eluvian is tainted by default. And the thing with the demon, the only reason i see not to restore the thing, is the very thing that Marethari didn't tell Merrill about.

[mcsupersport]

What demons in the Mirror?? You mean the one who told Marethari that it was going to use the mirror to get at Merrill and ONLY Marethari could save her???

[jlb524]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Considering the taint and the demons, pretty much the most absolute forms of evil you'll find in Thedas, are both present in the mirror, I'd definitely call it a valid opinion.

No, they are not.

It's just a mirror.  The taint was removed and the demon isn't in the mirror..it's bound to a statue and severed from the Fade.

The reasons Marethari gives for not wanting to study the mirror are irrational and seem dismissive.  For instance, she claims once that the ancient elves never meant for this mirror to be studied by them.  What does that even mean?

It's like saying we don't want people in the far off future to study our current technology (cell phones).  We don't even think about that when we make stuff.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[TJPags]

Forst1999 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Yes but we are talking about preserving something that tainted two clan members and has demons in it. Methinks those are quite important points.

The taint is easily taken care of. It is not as if the Eluvian is tainted by default. And the thing with the demon, the only reason i see not to restore the thing, is the very thing that Marethari didn't tell Merrill about.

The taint is easily taken care of?  Tell that to the Dalish Warden and Tamlen.

Whatever.  I'm going to bow out now.  Obviously, the prevailing opinion here is hey, it wasn't Merrill's fault, she's a trailblazer.

Enjoy.

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...

Charming...like Branka with the Anvil. Not that it
justifies her one bit.

It's not a justification...just a statement.

Bayz wrote...

Did it worked? Didn't know they had Eluvians only to spread the taint in Tevinter. They did think of everything didn't they?

What does that even mean?

Bayz wrote...
Yeah it is not as if the Eluvian had actually done any harm to the clan or had potentially powerful corrupting creatures in it...

And?.  Merrill is taking a risk in attempting to restore the thing, of course.  I am of the opinion that the risk is worth it.  People take risks all the time in order to accomplish something grand.   

She's taking precautions with the thing as well.  

TJPags wrote...

The taint is easily taken care of?  Tell that to the Dalish Warden and Tamlen.

.

The taint in the mirror is easily taken care of, yes.

It's an object and doesn't have to worry about dying.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:02 .

[AlexXIV]

mcsupersport wrote...

What demons in the Mirror?? You mean the one who told Marethari that it was going to use the mirror to get at Merrill and ONLY Marethari could save her???

Heh, why would the demon possess Marethari? Don't say it figured that Merrill was to clever to let it happen so it was the demon's plan to get Marethari instead? That's completely impossible because that requires to think around the corner and we all know demons don't do that.

[Forst1999]

@TJPags
I did not mean that the taint is easily cured when someone is infected. I meant that the problem that the Eluvian taints people at all can be solved. Which Merrill did.

Modifié par Forst1999, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[Bayz]

Forst1999 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Yes but we are talking about preserving something that tainted two clan members and has demons in it. Methinks those are quite important points.

The taint is easily taken care of. It is not as if the Eluvian is tainted by default. And the thing with the demon, the only reason i see not to restore the thing, is the very thing that Marethari didn't tell Merrill about.

It wasn't very easy to be taken care of. It took Merril a while of study and dig into arcane knoledge and dealing with spirits of the fade until she achieved the knoledge to. Not saying that Marethari was the most clever keeper ever either.

Just saying that for a woman who was just trying to protect her, even though she failed miserably, it is quite harsh to blame her for the elfholocaust.

On the other hand Merril DID have several paths to choose, and she did choose the one she was warned several times and she knew it had consecuences. Obviously judging Merril's after speech, she didn't see that coming (probably nobody but the demon did) but she could always have waited. She did not, therefore she is the one to blame.

Does it means that Marethari was awesome and Merril was a bloodthirsty ****? Nope it doesn't it was a tragedy and certainly it wasn't worth it in the end, but putting all the blame into Marethari's hands or at leas most of it were she probably did not have any other option to avoid Merril being corrupted (in her mind, she already didn't trust in Merril's own skills to keep demons at bay) while Merril did.

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.

She trusted Hawke to do what was best for Merrill.  She did not expect Hawke to know anything about ancient Elvhen artifacts.  For that, Marethari stayed.

You assume that Hawke needs to know anything about elven artifacts. But they merely went up the hill to talk to a demon. And Hawke has proven to know how to deal with a demon. At least better than Marethari. Also, research and science is not done by people who know everything. Just people who are curious to learn more. However, Marethari didn't give Merrill the chance to learn from her own faults. At least that is unworthy of a keeper, or teacher. At this point latest Marethari was no person of authority anymore. In my opinion she 'lost it' much earler.

Maybe Merrill didn't respect the keeper anymore. But honestly, who does? I don't anyway.

Hawke would have had to know about ancient elven artifacts to know the dangers of the eluvian better than Merrill, as Marethari did (The assumption that Merrill knew more is baseless and nonsensical).  Marethari did not want to allow the demon the chance to enter the world and possibly possess Merrill (Who has proven unable to resist a pride demon even with Hawke by her side).  Allowing Merrill to learn from her own faults could very well result in her possession.  There is a point where jeapordizing the student's safety makes a poor teacher.