544 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Yes but we are talking about preserving something that tainted two clan members and has demons in it. Methinks those are quite important points.

The taint is easily taken care of. It is not as if the Eluvian is tainted by default. And the thing with the demon, the only reason i see not to restore the thing, is the very thing that Marethari didn't tell Merrill about.

The taint is easily taken care of?  Tell that to the Dalish Warden and Tamlen.

Whatever.  I'm going to bow out now.  Obviously, the prevailing opinion here is hey, it wasn't Merrill's fault, she's a trailblazer.

Enjoy.

I understand your reservations against Merrill. I actually feel the same. But fact is that the keeper took the blow for her. And not only physically. She also took the responsibility on herself by acting before Merrill could. Maybe she even wanted that. She wanted Merrill to stay 'innocent'. At least in this regard she succeeded.

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.

She trusted Hawke to do what was best for Merrill.  She did not expect Hawke to know anything about ancient Elvhen artifacts.  For that, Marethari stayed.

You assume that Hawke needs to know anything about elven artifacts. But they merely went up the hill to talk to a demon. And Hawke has proven to know how to deal with a demon. At least better than Marethari. Also, research and science is not done by people who know everything. Just people who are curious to learn more. However, Marethari didn't give Merrill the chance to learn from her own faults. At least that is unworthy of a keeper, or teacher. At this point latest Marethari was no person of authority anymore. In my opinion she 'lost it' much earler.

Maybe Merrill didn't respect the keeper anymore. But honestly, who does? I don't anyway.

Hawke would have had to know about ancient elven artifacts to know the dangers of the eluvian better than Merrill, as Marethari did (The assumption that Merrill knew more is baseless and nonsensical).  Marethari did not want to allow the demon the chance to enter the world and possibly possess Merrill (Who has proven unable to resist a pride demon even with Hawke by her side).  Allowing Merrill to learn from her own faults could very well result in her possession.  There is a point where jeapordizing the student's safety makes a poor teacher.

Um ... Marethari attacks Merrill and almost kills her. Letting a demon possess herself didn't exactly make life safer for Merrill. Especially without telling anyone about it so the demon could pretend to be the keeper. It's only thanks to Hawke that they even realized she is possessed and thus not the real Marethari anymore.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Yes but we are talking about preserving something that tainted two clan members and has demons in it. Methinks those are quite important points.

The taint is easily taken care of. It is not as if the Eluvian is tainted by default. And the thing with the demon, the only reason i see not to restore the thing, is the very thing that Marethari didn't tell Merrill about.

The taint is easily taken care of?  Tell that to the Dalish Warden and Tamlen.

Whatever.  I'm going to bow out now.  Obviously, the prevailing opinion here is hey, it wasn't Merrill's fault, she's a trailblazer.

Enjoy.

Avernus would beg to differ on the taint being hard to take care of. He has not only prolonged his life by using blood magic sans sacrifices -- since it involves manipulating his own blood and not anyone else's, plus he ran out of subjects a long time ago -- but he's been working on ways to refine the Joining. He has also discovered something alarming that the Wardens need to know about. This something has caused someone to actively move against the Wardens. My guess is the Chantry.

Anyway...

The Eluvian shard and by extension the completed mirror -- albeit not as functional. Merrill remarks that the power is asleep inside it -- haven't tainted anyone in the Alienage. Thus it isn't tainted. If the taint was behind closed doors -- so to speak -- then Anders would've been able to sense it since he could sense the taint in Bethany/Carver and Duncan could sense the taint in the Eluvian/Mahariel.

[jlb524]

Here's the thing, Tamlen and Mahariel played around with a potentially dangerous artifact that they knew nothing about...then they got burnt.   "Oooh, let's stick my hand in the glowy mirror!"  Good idea, bro!

Merrill and Marethari are the experts. Because some novices got hurt by the mirror doesn't mean that those that know a hell of a lot more about magic shouldn't study the thing.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[General User]

Forst1999 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

No, I don't condemn her for something someone else did - I condemn her for what SHE did.

When I was growing up, my parents had rules.  I had to follow them.  As my parents told me, when I had my own place and was an adult, I could make my own rules.

My first place was an apartment - there were rules laid down by the landlord.  Some foolish.  I still had to listen.

I currently have a job.  I frequently think my bosses are foolish.  I still have to follow their rules.

Get it?  Merrill was supposed to listen.  I condemn her for failing to do so.  It's that simple.

Okay, normally she is supposed to listen to the Keeper. But in this case, the Keeper told her to do something that contradicts her job description. It IS Merrill's job to recover and preserve elven history. The Keeper tells her to ignore that, without explaining her reasons. The only thing she does explain (fear of the taint), is outright nonsensical.  So in the conflict between obedience to her superior and fulfilling the purpose of her job, she chooses the latter. I don't blame her for that.

Dalish are not Qunari, single-mindedly pursuing some insane edict because 'that's their role.'  A Keeper, is much more than simply preserving and discovering elven lore.  They are tribal elders.

The Dalish Clans are just that: clans, an extended family.  Merrill should have been willing to forgo the (putting it charitably) 'pursuit of elven lore' in favor of focusing on the people around her.  The people who care about her, and the people she (at least on some level) cares about too.

[mcsupersport]

Whether or not to protect a student, doesn't change Marethari's main purpose of protecting the entire clan. By taking the Demon into herself she voids all of her responsibilities to the clan in the effort to not let ONE elf take the consequences of her actions....that is a bad Keeper.

Plus, the only reason we are given to have Marethari take the demon into herself to protect Merrill is that the demon meant to use the mirror to possess her, as told by the Demon to Marethari.........and only Marethari could protect Merrill as per the Demon.....

[AlexXIV]

jlb524 wrote...

Here's the thing, Tamlen and Mahariel played around with a potentially dangerous artifact that they knew nothing about...then they got burnt.

Merrill and Marethari are the experts. Because some novices got hurt by the mirror doesn't mean that those that know a hell of a lot more about magic shouldn't study the thing.

Actually didn't Duncan destroy it and declare that the danger is over? I mean would he have left the broken mirror behind if he thought it could be reassembled by some witless trespassers or adventurers etc.?

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

What does that even mean?

It means that the only thing Marethari saw it working for was in tainting two of her clan members. Not that she had any idea it could do anything else.

jlb524 wrote...
And?.  Merrill is taking a risk in attempting to restore the thing, of course.  I am of the opinion that the risk is worth it.  People take risks all the time in order to accomplish something grand.   

She's taking precautions with the thing as well.  

Again you fail to see Marethari's PoV. She saw Merril as unskilled or at least less skilled than she was (which yeah, she was wrong, life is a **** isn't it?). She loved Merril yet she thought her precautions were not enough, and that Merril should leave that and fulfill her duty, becoming ultimately keeper and then it would be her problem.

Mind you that it is not as if she could never ever ever ever again study the Eluvian, she could just wait her turn in power, which was coming, and then do whatever she desired to. With the demon inside Marethari, it was probable that Merril wouldn't have to wait for too long even...yet she decided to take the other way, take the risk right here right now not when she could do it with minimal collateral damage.

Peope take risks all the time, yes, but not without first trying to minimize the possible negative outcomes. Merril didn't cared at all about precautions with her clan, she just cared about the mirror she was asked to leave alone several times, and she saw tainting people.

To sum it up, she should have waited. She did not.

jlb524 wrote...
The taint in the mirror is easily taken care of, yes.

It's an object and doesn't have to worry about dying.

Dealing with lore older than thou and demons is not what I would call easily...and anyway Merril knew it but Marethari didn't.

[Heimdall]

jlb524 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Considering the taint and the demons, pretty much the most absolute forms of evil you'll find in Thedas, are both present in the mirror, I'd definitely call it a valid opinion.

No, they are not.

It's just a mirror.  The taint was removed and the demon isn't in the mirror..it's bound to a statue and severed from the Fade.

The reasons Marethari gives for not wanting to study the mirror are irrational and seem dismissive.  For instance, she claims once that the ancient elves never meant for this mirror to be studied by them.  What does that even mean?

It's like saying we don't want people in the far off future to study our current technology (cell phones).  We don't even think about that when we make stuff.

And the mirror can let demons into the physical world.  It also gives you a window into the Black City.  The taint corrupted of the mirror's power, the eluvians are still extremely powerful ancient artifacts that have only been used by a living being once in centuries, and that one being had an unusual knowledge of forgotten and ancient lore.

It's more like saying "hey, this thing is dangerous, we don't want creatures without the knowledge to work it messing with it in the future."

[Forst1999]

AlexXIV wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Here's the thing, Tamlen and Mahariel played around with a potentially dangerous artifact that they knew nothing about...then they got burnt.

Merrill and Marethari are the experts. Because some novices got hurt by the mirror doesn't mean that those that know a hell of a lot more about magic shouldn't study the thing.

Actually didn't Duncan destroy it and declare that the danger is over? I mean would he have left the broken mirror behind if he thought it could be reassembled by some witless trespassers or adventurers etc.?

Duncan also taught it was of Tevinter origin, if i recall correctly. As awesome as his beard is, he isn't an expert on this

[AlexXIV]

Forst1999 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Here's the thing, Tamlen and Mahariel played around with a potentially dangerous artifact that they knew nothing about...then they got burnt.

Merrill and Marethari are the experts. Because some novices got hurt by the mirror doesn't mean that those that know a hell of a lot more about magic shouldn't study the thing.

Actually didn't Duncan destroy it and declare that the danger is over? I mean would he have left the broken mirror behind if he thought it could be reassembled by some witless trespassers or adventurers etc.?

Duncan also taught it was of Tevinter origin, if i recall correctly. As awesome as his beard is, he isn't an expert on this

But how can you grow a beard this awesome without knowing of all these things? Doesn't make sense.

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

General User wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
She trusts someone she doesn't know to watch out someone precious to her.  My agressive Hawk would laugh, no one can trust him lol.

She was desperate.  And how did your aggressive Hawke betray that trust?

AlexXIV wrote...
No she didn't trust Hawke. Because if she trusted Hawke there would not have been a need to become possessed by a
demon.

How do you figure?

Well if she thought Hawke could handle the responsibility, why would she step in? If Hawke is in charge of Merrill, Marethari is out of the loop. But she still insisted in messing, got possessed and paid for it. If you trust someone you don't need precautions. Unless you don't trust completely, in any case at the point she gave Hawke the last part and let Hawke decide whether or not to give it to Merrill it was time for Marethari to step back, take her clan and gtfo of Kirkwall.

She trusted Hawke to do what was best for Merrill.  She did not expect Hawke to know anything about ancient Elvhen artifacts.  For that, Marethari stayed.

You assume that Hawke needs to know anything about elven artifacts. But they merely went up the hill to talk to a demon. And Hawke has proven to know how to deal with a demon. At least better than Marethari. Also, research and science is not done by people who know everything. Just people who are curious to learn more. However, Marethari didn't give Merrill the chance to learn from her own faults. At least that is unworthy of a keeper, or teacher. At this point latest Marethari was no person of authority anymore. In my opinion she 'lost it' much earler.

Maybe Merrill didn't respect the keeper anymore. But honestly, who does? I don't anyway.

Hawke would have had to know about ancient elven artifacts to know the dangers of the eluvian better than Merrill, as Marethari did (The assumption that Merrill knew more is baseless and nonsensical).  Marethari did not want to allow the demon the chance to enter the world and possibly possess Merrill (Who has proven unable to resist a pride demon even with Hawke by her side).  Allowing Merrill to learn from her own faults could very well result in her possession.  There is a point where jeapordizing the student's safety makes a poor teacher.

Um ... Marethari attacks Merrill and almost kills her. Letting a demon possess herself didn't exactly make life safer for Merrill. Especially without telling anyone about it so the demon could pretend to be the keeper. It's only thanks to Hawke that they even realized she is possessed and thus not the real Marethari anymore.

Not her finest moment of decision making, but in her mind it was better than allowing it the opportunity to possess Merrill. (Whom we know has difficulty with Pride Demon deals.

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

She wanted Merrill to stay 'innocent'. At least in this regard she succeeded.

No she didn't. Hawke had already taken care of Merrill's "innocence", if you catch my drift.

Well we didn't see that, and neither did Marethari.

[Bayz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Avernus would beg to differ on the taint being hard to take care of. He has not only prolonged his life by using blood magic sans sacrifices -- since it involves manipulating his own blood and not anyone else's, plus he ran out of subjects a long time ago -- but he's been working on ways to refine the Joining. He has also discovered something alarming that the Wardens need to know about. This something has caused someone to actively move against the Wardens. My guess is the Chantry.

Avernus is not an elf, neither of Merril's clan, and does not have any contact with Marethari that we knew of. That one guy once managed to do it doesn't mean that it is common knoledge by all the people who work in the same thing. He also had to study the joining which doesn't seem common knoledge amongst the elves (or even many gray wardens for that matter) and Maker knows what more knoledge...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Eluvian shard and by extension the completed mirror -- albeit not as functional. Merrill remarks that the power is asleep inside it -- haven't tainted anyone in the Alienage. Thus it isn't tainted. If the taint was behind closed doors -- so to speak -- then Anders would've been able to sense it since he could sense the taint in Bethany/Carver and Duncan could sense the taint in the Eluvian/Mahariel.

It didn't seem to have tainted the woods it were in since the Tevinter imerium either, yet it did taint Tamlen and the Non city elf Warden...

[WhiteKnyght]

Also I think it's really ignorant that Marethari destroyed Merrill's character to the rest of the clan and then kept telling Merrill that she is welcome back anytime.

Marethari knew dang well that Merrill was to be her successor and she should be smart enough to know the clan wont follow someone they fear and hate.

[mcsupersport]

Bayz wrote...



Again you fail to see Marethari's PoV. She saw Merril as unskilled or at least less skilled than she was (which yeah, she was wrong, life is a **** isn't it?). She loved Merril yet she thought her precautions were not enough, and that Merril should leave that and fulfill her duty, becoming ultimately keeper and then it would be her problem.

Mind you that it is not as if she could never ever ever ever again study the Eluvian, she could just wait her turn in power, which was coming, and then do whatever she desired to. With the demon inside Marethari, it was probable that Merril wouldn't have to wait for too long even...yet she decided to take the other way, take the risk right here right now not when she could do it with minimal collateral damage.

Peope take risks all the time, yes, but not without first trying to minimize the possible negative outcomes. Merril didn't cared at all about precautions with her clan, she just cared about the mirror she was asked to leave alone several times, and she saw tainting people.

To sum it up, she should have waited. She did not.

Actually if you are dealing with a dangerous object and the choice is study it now or wait until you have greater responsibilities to a clan, then you should do your best to study it NOW.  To wait until you have responsibility over others to start a risky project means neglecting your other responsibilities, not being responsible.  You don't become a mother/father, then take up being a test pilot for experimental planes, if you have the option to be the test pilot THEN later become a parent.

??No precautions taken by Merrill??  What you don't call living in the alienage away from your clan, precautions??  You don't know what precautions she took magically, or in research, because that isn't stated.  The only real defined danger of the mirror was the Taint, which by all info was cleaned out. 

[Bayz]

We do not know how Elven Policies actually work...city elves seem to elect their representatives but the Dalish are just odd.

They might have deposed they might have followed her blindly to death and say they didn't hate her all along.

As a leader and without a Marethari in the back saying how irresponsible and youg she was, she might have been able to change her clan views in a couple of things. You never know...

[Forst1999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Not her finest moment of decision making, but in her mind it was better than allowing it the opportunity to possess Merrill. (Whom we know has difficulty with Pride Demon deals.

I don't doubt that Marethari did what she thought was best for Merrill. She had good intentions and her sacrifice was noble. But it was the wrong decision.
But i think that bringing up the Pride Demon from Night Terrors isn't fair. That was a completly different situation.

[AlexXIV]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also I think it's really ignorant that Marethari destroyed Merrill's character to the rest of the clan and then kept telling Merrill that she is welcome back anytime.

Marethari knew dang well that Merrill was to be her successor and she should be smart enough to know the clan wont follow someone they fear and hate.

Yeah even worse then that she basically committed suicide and left the clan without leader, since she must have figured that they wouldn't accept Merrill anyways. You can really turn the story as you want, the keeper never gets out looking good.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

She wanted Merrill to stay 'innocent'. At least in this regard she succeeded.

No she didn't. Hawke had already taken care of Merrill's "innocence", if you catch my drift.

Well we didn't see that, and neither did Marethari.

I don't think you understood what I meant. See, "innocence" here is used as a synonym for...   you know what, I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

I understood. They only kissed, hugged and rolled around the bed though. You don't see her losing her innocence. And I don't remember Marethari being in the room at the time either, unless she hid under the bed or in the closet.

[jlb524]

AlexXIV wrote...
Actually didn't Duncan destroy it and declare that the danger is over? I mean would he have left the broken mirror behind if he thought it could be reassembled by some witless trespassers or adventurers etc.?

Yes he did.

I just wonder if Tamlen and Mahariel had went to the Keeper instead of going to the cave (like they should have) and never touched the mirror if Marethari's opinion on it would have changed?

[Forst1999]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also I think it's really ignorant that Marethari destroyed Merrill's character to the rest of the clan and then kept telling Merrill that she is welcome back anytime.

Marethari knew dang well that Merrill was to be her successor and she should be smart enough to know the clan wont follow someone they fear and hate.

Yeah even worse than that she basically committed suicide and left the clan without leader, since she must have figured that they wouldn't accept Merrill anyways. You can really turn the story as you want, the keeper never gets out looking good.

Well, she had a new first, so she didn't left the clan without leader. Informing the new first about was what going on so that she could stop Fenarel and Ineria from getting the clan killed would have been a good idea though.
But The Grey Nayr raises an interesting point. Marethari's warnings did make Merrill's return to the clan hard, if not impossible.

Modifié par Forst1999, 02 novembre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Bayz]

mcsupersport wrote...

Actually if you are dealing with a dangerous object and the choice is study it now or wait until you have greater responsibilities to a clan, then you should do your best to study it NOW.  To wait until you have responsibility over others to start a risky project means neglecting your other responsibilities, not being responsible.  You don't become a mother/father, then take up being a test pilot for experimental planes, if you have the option to be the test pilot THEN later become a parent.

Yeah because saying the clan to pack up their stuff every once in a while will take you a lot of time in studying...It doesn't seem like the keepers do much more stuff, really, Marethari had time to deal with the demon and get screwed mentally by it, and remember that elves tend to, you know, live longer (at least when they are not humans around)

mcsupersport wrote...
??No precautions taken by Merrill??  What you don't call living in the alienage away from your clan, precautions??  You don't know what precautions she took magically, or in research, because that isn't stated.  The only real defined danger of the mirror was the Taint, which by all info was cleaned out. 

You do not either. She apparently did to resist the corruption of the demon she dealt with and the taint. Precautions she should have taken as in "maybe if I touch this stuff that my clan has seen as dangerous and my keeper, who leads the clan see as dangerous, they might do something stupid I wouldn't like to see". She just didn't give a **** about the consecuences it may have. And yes the result was that she did cleanse the mirror in the end.

But before that not Marethari, not her clan not even herself knew she could do it.