544 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Not her finest moment of decision making, but in her mind it was better than allowing it the opportunity to possess Merrill. (Whom we know has difficulty with Pride Demon deals.

I don't doubt that Marethari did what she thought was best for Merrill. She had good intentions and her sacrifice was noble. But it was the wrong decision.
But i think that bringing up the Pride Demon from Night Terrors isn't fair. That was a completly different situation.

Not really, it offers her the power to bring back the power of the old elves, does it not?  That's pretty much what this demon has been offering Merrill the whole time.  Merrill would probably see the whole thing in a similar vein as Marethari, a sacrificial abomination to the betterment of those she cared about.

[Bayz]

But but...people reproduce in DA by kissing and rolling around in underwear...so technically she did

[jlb524]

Lord Aesir wrote...
And the mirror can let demons into the physical world. 

Says who?   Audacity..right?

Well, if these mirrors can unleash demons, why weren't there demons pouring out of the one Morrigan stood in front of for half an hour chatting up the Warden in WH?

Lord Aesir wrote...
It also gives you a window into the Black City.  The taint corrupted of the mirror's power, the eluvians are still extremely powerful ancient artifacts that have only been used by a living being once in centuries, and that one being had an unusual knowledge of forgotten and ancient lore.

You mean, Morrigan?  She also went to a Dalish clan and stole a book they had on Eluvians and that seemed to have the one special piece of knowledge needed to activate the thing.  I'm sure if Marethari wanted to study the one they found in the cave, she could have went to that clan and borrowed the book and then had Morrigan's knowledge.

Lord Aesir wrote...
It's more like saying "hey, this thing is dangerous, we don't want creatures without the knowledge to work it messing with it in the future."

And you know for a fact that the ancient elves believed that?

[AlexXIV]

jlb524 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Actually didn't Duncan destroy it and declare that the danger is over? I mean would he have left the broken mirror behind if he thought it could be reassembled by some witless trespassers or adventurers etc.?

Yes he did.

I just wonder if Tamlen and Mahariel had went to the Keeper instead of going to the cave (like they should have) and never touched the mirror if Marethari's opinion on it would have changed?

Well since my canon Warden is dalish it would mean that she never became warden and the blight would be their main problem, not the mirror. But if Mahariel would not be the Warden? Many things would be possible. Nobody would use bloodmagic or call demons. So it wouldn't be a matter probably. I mean Merrill got started because they found the mirror. And if Tamlen and Mahariel didn't find it but someone else then whoever found it would suffer the same fate. I mean Tamlen didn't really do much, just touched it. And if you'd find a mirror the least you'd do is probably touching it. So if they had found the mirror it would be always the same, just different people finding it. If they didn't find it, nobody would even get started with bloodmagic and demons. Most likely.

[mcsupersport]

You mean do something stupid like ignore your duty and take a demon into yourself, because it told you it was going to possess your exiled elf through a broken mirror if it ever got repaired??? Leaving the clan behind, and only asking the Keeper to take care of the clan didn't require much of the Keeper other than to do their duty.
As far as what a Keeper does, they are the leader of a group, and if all you think they do, or all you think any leader does, is tell them to move occasionally you are painfully ignorant, on what being a leader entails.

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

She wanted Merrill to stay 'innocent'. At least in this regard she succeeded.

No she didn't. Hawke had already taken care of Merrill's "innocence", if you catch my drift.

Well we didn't see that, and neither did Marethari.

I don't think you understood what I meant. See, "innocence" here is used as a synonym for...   you know what, I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

I understood. They only kissed, hugged and rolled around the bed though. You don't see her losing her innocence. And I don't remember Marethari being in the room at the time either, unless she hid under the bed or in the closet.

It happened, whether the game showed it or not. I swear, you're almost as bad as the "Shepard never had sex with Garrus or Tali" people. And it really didn't have anything to do with Marethari, either. I was just going off on a tangent, completely unrelated to the rest of the discussion.

Maybe I should mention that I was just kidding. I should have used a  but I rarely do that. I'm too manly to use smilies ... often.

[Bayz]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Not her finest moment of decision making, but in her mind it was better than allowing it the opportunity to possess Merrill. (Whom we know has difficulty with Pride Demon deals.

I don't doubt that Marethari did what she thought was best for Merrill. She had good intentions and her sacrifice was noble. But it was the wrong decision.
But i think that bringing up the Pride Demon from Night Terrors isn't fair. That was a completly different situation.

Not really, it offers her the power to bring back the power of the old elves, does it not?  That's pretty much what this demon has been offering Merrill the whole time.  Merrill would probably see the whole thing in a similar vein as Marethari, a sacrificial abomination to the betterment of those she cared about.

Nay it was the demon bull****ting Merril. It turned out as an artifact that could work to communicate with the other elves AFAIR...so yeah a very big iPhone...

[Forst1999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Not her finest moment of decision making, but in her mind it was better than allowing it the opportunity to possess Merrill. (Whom we know has difficulty with Pride Demon deals.

I don't doubt that Marethari did what she thought was best for Merrill. She had good intentions and her sacrifice was noble. But it was the wrong decision.
But i think that bringing up the Pride Demon from Night Terrors isn't fair. That was a completly different situation.

Not really, it offers her the power to bring back the power of the old elves, does it not?  That's pretty much what this demon has been offering Merrill the whole time.  Merrill would probably see the whole thing in a similar vein as Marethari, a sacrificial abomination to the betterment of those she cared about.

The Night Terrors demon's offer itself was not so different, but the circumstances (Fade, little dream realm of a somniari, apparantly nobody can resist it). Afterwards Merrill states that this was different from normal demon's advances.

[Heimdall]

jlb524 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
And the mirror can let demons into the physical world. 

Says who?   Audacity..right?

Well, if these mirrors can unleash demons, why weren't there demons pouring out of the one Morrigan stood in front of for half an hour chatting up the Warden in WH?

Lord Aesir wrote...
It also gives you a window into the Black City.  The taint corrupted of the mirror's power, the eluvians are still extremely powerful ancient artifacts that have only been used by a living being once in centuries, and that one being had an unusual knowledge of forgotten and ancient lore.

You mean, Morrigan?  She also went to a Dalish clan and stole a book they had on Eluvians and that seemed to have the one special piece of knowledge needed to activate the thing.  I'm sure if Marethari wanted to study the one they found in the cave, she could have went to that clan and borrowed the book and then had Morrigan's knowledge.

Lord Aesir wrote...
It's more like saying "hey, this thing is dangerous, we don't want creatures without the knowledge to work it messing with it in the future."

And you know for a fact that the ancient elves believed that?

Because Morrigan knew what she was doing and Merrill was following an instruction manual given to her by a demon.

You mean that book the dalish couldn't read?  If they could who's to say Marethari didn't and decided it was too dangerous?

No, I was just fixing your analogy.

[Bayz]

What do you mean? Morrigan was able to capture the soul of an Archdemon in the fetus she had in her belly. Obviously she and Merril have the same comprehension of the taint.

Yeah I was being sarcastic.

[Heimdall]

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Not her finest moment of decision making, but in her mind it was better than allowing it the opportunity to possess Merrill. (Whom we know has difficulty with Pride Demon deals.

I don't doubt that Marethari did what she thought was best for Merrill. She had good intentions and her sacrifice was noble. But it was the wrong decision.
But i think that bringing up the Pride Demon from Night Terrors isn't fair. That was a completly different situation.

Not really, it offers her the power to bring back the power of the old elves, does it not?  That's pretty much what this demon has been offering Merrill the whole time.  Merrill would probably see the whole thing in a similar vein as Marethari, a sacrificial abomination to the betterment of those she cared about.

The Night Terrors demon's offer itself was not so different, but the circumstances (Fade, little dream realm of a somniari, apparantly nobody can resist it). Afterwards Merrill states that this was different from normal demon's advances.

The point stands, I can easily see Merrill making the decision based on the logic that by making that choice the Dalish would benefit, similarly to how it worked out in the Fade.  She says herself that she expected to pay a price instead of Marethari.

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

She wanted Merrill to stay 'innocent'. At least in this regard she succeeded.

No she didn't. Hawke had already taken care of Merrill's "innocence", if you catch my drift.

Well we didn't see that, and neither did Marethari.

I don't think you understood what I meant. See, "innocence" here is used as a synonym for...   you know what, I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

I understood. They only kissed, hugged and rolled around the bed though. You don't see her losing her innocence. And I don't remember Marethari being in the room at the time either, unless she hid under the bed or in the closet.

It happened, whether the game showed it or not. I swear, you're almost as bad as the "Shepard never had sex with Garrus or Tali" people. And it really didn't have anything to do with Marethari, either. I was just going off on a tangent, completely unrelated to the rest of the discussion.

Maybe I should mention that I was just kidding. I should have used a  but I rarely do that. I'm too manly to use smilies ... often.

What? There's nothing unmanly about smilies! There's only one way to respond to this:
:happy::innocent::devil:

See? not manly .

On a more serious note I am too lazy sometimes and I actually enjoy it if people don't notice me joking at first. It's like when I am sarcastic in rl I try to say it in a way that sounds all serious just to laugh at everyone when they look at me funny.

[mcsupersport]

watch the quote pyramids or you may get us in trouble.

[Forst1999]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The point stands, I can easily see Merrill making the decision based on the logic that by making that choice the Dalish would benefit, similarly to how it worked out in the Fade.  She says herself that she expected to pay a price instead of Marethari.

In the Fade, she didn't make a free decision. I can't see her willingly letting Audacity possess her with some promise
that it will benefit the dalish. Marethari had a concrete reason for taking it in.
Merrill only said that if someone had to pay a price, it should have been her. I don't see that as a sign that she was ready to become possessed.

[Forst1999]

Bayz wrote...

What do you mean? Morrigan was able to capture the soul of an Archdemon in the fetus she had in her belly. Obviously she and Merril have the same comprehension of the taint.

Yeah I was being sarcastic.

Morrigan wasn't able to do so because she is the biggest expert on the taint, but because her mother told her how to do it. No doubt she acquired much knowledge about the taint and eluvians afterwards, but so did Merrill. I don't think it would be fair to say that Morrigan knows everything much better than Merrill. Both know their magic, both spend a long time researching the whole issue.

[AlexXIV]

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The point stands, I can easily see Merrill making the decision based on the logic that by making that choice the Dalish would benefit, similarly to how it worked out in the Fade.  She says herself that she expected to pay a price instead of Marethari.

In the Fade, she didn't make a free decision. I can't see her willingly letting Audacity possess her with some promise
that it will benefit the dalish. Marethari had a concrete reason for taking it in.
Merrill only said that if someone had to pay a price, it should have been her. I don't see that as a sign that she was ready to become possessed.

She was not ready most likely but she asked Hawke to come so she could be killed when possessed. So she didn't think it impossible to happen.

[jlb524]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well since my canon Warden is dalish it would mean that she never became warden and the blight would be their main problem, not the mirror. But if Mahariel would not be the Warden? Many things would be possible. Nobody would use bloodmagic or call demons. So it wouldn't be a matter probably. I mean Merrill got started because they found the mirror. And if Tamlen and Mahariel didn't find it but someone else then whoever found it would suffer the same fate. I mean Tamlen didn't really do much, just touched it. And if you'd find a mirror the least you'd do is probably touching it. So if they had found the mirror it would be always the same, just different people finding it. If they didn't find it, nobody would even get started with bloodmagic and demons. Most likely.

Mahariel didn't want to touch it.

I'm assuming Marethari wouldn't just touch the thing either.

So, I'm wondering how Marethari's opinion on the mirror would change if she was the first one to find it and no one became tainted by it.

Lord Aesir wrote...
Because Morrigan knew what she was doing and Merrill was following an instruction manual given to her by a demon.

Assumptions here....How do you know Morrigan didn't take any risks?

Lord Aesir wrote...

You mean that book the dalish couldn't read?  If they could who's to say Marethari didn't and decided it was too dangerous?

How did Morrigan read it?

Marethari might have decided it was too dangerous or not worth it.  But at least she would have studied the thing instead of calling it 'evil' out of superstitious thinking.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 novembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[Heimdall]

jlb524 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Because Morrigan knew what she was doing and Merrill was following an instruction manual given to her by a demon.

Assumptions here....How do you know Morrigan didn't take any risks?

Lord Aesir wrote...

You mean that book the dalish couldn't read?  If they could who's to say Marethari didn't and decided it was too dangerous?

How did Morrigan read it?

Marethari might have decided it was too dangerous or not worth it.  But at least she would have studied the thing instead of calling it 'evil' out of superstitious thinking.

Never said she didn't take a risk.  I just said she had access to the knowledge and Merrill did not, instead gaining it from a demon.  Neither of these things are assumptions.

That Circle Mage could read it, or at least bits of it.  If her knowledge comes from Flemeth, I imagine it's much more complete.

Or maybe she called it evil out of educated thinking because she did not believe any good would come of messing with it after she researched it.

[AlexXIV]

Yeah obviously it is a question how to deal with ancient artifacts. Study them or throw them in a hole and earth on it in case they are evil. Most people would probably think studying it is the better course of action, even if they are 'cursed'. Because I really don't see how something that is dangerous becomes less of a danger by ignoring it instead of trying to find out what it is.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 02:16 .

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah obviously it is a question how to deal with ancient artifacts. Study them or throw them in a hole and earth on it in case they are evil. Most people would probably think studying it is the better course of action, even if they are 'cursed'. Because I really don't see how something that is dangerous becomes less of a danger by ignoring it instead of trying to find out what it is.

The problem being that, if you unearth it, do you unleash that danger on the world?  Or do you let it sit safely sealed away where it couldn't hurt anyone.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Because Morrigan knew what she was doing and Merrill was following an instruction manual given to her by a demon.

Assumptions here....How do you know Morrigan didn't take any risks?

Lord Aesir wrote...

You mean that book the dalish couldn't read?  If they could who's to say Marethari didn't and decided it was too dangerous?

How did Morrigan read it?

Marethari might have decided it was too dangerous or not worth it.  But at least she would have studied the thing instead of calling it 'evil' out of superstitious thinking.

Never said she didn't take a risk.  I just said she had access to the knowledge and Merrill did not, instead gaining it from a demon.  Neither of these things are assumptions.

That Circle Mage could read it, or at least bits of it.  If her knowledge comes from Flemeth, I imagine it's much more complete.

Or maybe she called it evil out of educated thinking because she did not believe any good would come of messing with it after she researched it.

You're assuming Morrigan could even read all of it and not just a portion that said "Some scholars believed they were portals to somewhere, though none have ever proven this theory". Finn could read it because he had access to a book on deciphering the Elven language, as well as his own special decoder ring that happened to help.

Now I like to think Flemeth maybe told Morrigan a thing or two about the Eluvians given Flemeth's familiarity with Dalish culture, but that's speculation and not cold hard fact.

[TEWR]

AlexXIV wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The point stands, I can easily see Merrill making the decision based on the logic that by making that choice the Dalish would benefit, similarly to how it worked out in the Fade.  She says herself that she expected to pay a price instead of Marethari.

In the Fade, she didn't make a free decision. I can't see her willingly letting Audacity possess her with some promise
that it will benefit the dalish. Marethari had a concrete reason for taking it in.
Merrill only said that if someone had to pay a price, it should have been her. I don't see that as a sign that she was ready to become possessed.

She was not ready most likely but she asked Hawke to come so she could be killed when possessed. So she didn't think it impossible to happen.

What people seem to be forgetting is that Night Terrors is as Forst said a unique situation that shouldn't be held against Merrill. Seriously, should I hold it against Varric for him to want to get revenge on Bartrand and betray me when I too want revenge against Bartrand?

Should I say that Isabela will betray me for a ship in the mortal realm because she left me for a Desire Demon?

It's a unique scenario that shouldn't be used against any character. Yes Merrill's a mage, but Wryme makes it a point to say that he's the greatest of his kind. Is this an embodiment of the pride that he is or truth? We don't know. But it makes sense that if he were the greatest of his kin that he would be able to do things to Merrill in the Fade -- which is a demon's domain and not a mage's -- that she wouldn't otherwise do.

Merrill makes it clear that she has no intention of freeing Audacity should one choose the aggressive options when beginning the quest. She's only taking Hawke for fear of the unknown. The darkness of the unknown is a scary thing, and as Flemeth said:

As for you child, step carefully. No path is darker than when your eyes are shut.

The old adage "better safe then sorry" comes to mind. Apparently, if someone takes a precaution then that someone is immediately going to do what that precaution would help prevent.

I put on my seat belt everytime I drive. Does that mean I'm going to get in an accident on purpose? No. It just means that should **** hit the fan at some point during my drive, I'll have taken the precaution of putting on my seat belt and minimizing the damage.

EDIT: Ah before I forget. People are also assuming that Merrill knew what spell would free Audacity the Fade-sundered demon. We don't know if Merrill knows what spell it is. We definitely know that she knows a powerful spell must be used, but really does Merrill know what exactly this spell is? We don't know.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[TEWR]

It didn't seem to have tainted the woods it were in since the Tevinter imerium either, yet it did taint Tamlen and the Non city elf Warden...

I dunno... the woods near the cave seemed pretty dead and lifeless. But the elves of the Alienage are what matters, not the Alienage itself. They weren't tainted. Ergo, the mirror isn't tainted.

And who's to say it hadn't been tainted recently by the emergence of the Blight in Ferelden? We don't know when it became tainted, nor how long it was tainted. It could've been starting to spread the taint before Mahariel and Tamlen found it and the mirror was destroyed by Duncan.