249 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I think some people (DA2 fans + article author) have totally lost their foothold now.
I read the article. There is no new information. No new angle.
Just the suggestion that we somehow should appreciate DA2 by focusing on its qualities.

Oh, don't short change this.

The punchline comes in the article's stated definition of what those qualities are:  Hawke's powerlessness.  


LOL  This article isn't ridiculous, It's hilarious

[Demx]

Melca36 wrote...

The DLCS make DA:2 worth it.

The DLCs prove the developers are listening.

Its definitely worth a second chance because of them.

No DLC makes a game worth the purchase. DA2's DLC only shows that the developers have taken suggestions given to them. People didn't want waves of enemies and enemies appearing out of nowhere, you got Legacy. People wanted less brown and puzzles, you got Mark of the Assassin. In both you don't have recycled maps. The wave mechanic is actually reintroduced in Mark of the Assassin. Enemies do appear out of nowhere, such as dogs appearing out of dirt mounds to attack you, enemies appearing out of nowhere at the gate, enemies appearing by the portals, and enemies appearing slightly off the path you can't walk on. Hell that DLC even introduced landmines with timers. Based on MOTA it is obvious Bioware wants wave mechanics in DA3, they are just trying to figure out how to fit it in so that they are not falling from the sky.

[Kreid]

Read the article, saw the point but it didn't change my opinion of the game, the strong points of the game the article is trying to illustrate are not hidden virtues of the game that people overlook, they're the only things that keep you motivated to keep playing, I don't know how pointing at the obvious is going to change anyone's mind but whatever.

Hawke is not a typical hero, that's true and one of the very few good things about the character, s/he is just an incredibly capable person that happened to be in the right (or wrong) place at the right (or wrong) time and his/her powerlessness makes him/her a more relate-able character, but all these tragedies, all these events like what happens at the end of "All that remains" they all feel artificial because the character development of Hawke's family is pretty much non-existent, you don't care for these people and that means that even thought you can empathize with Hawke in the moment these events are hardly transcendental.

DA2 pretty much is one step forward and two steps backwards in most areas, and although I'm ok with this (I commend BioWare for trying new things, but the formula needs refinement) what I'm having a hard time coming over is their utmost disregard for everything else in the game, DA2 indeed trades gameplay for story and that's unique but it's gone clearly overboard within the game, there's no balance whatsoever the repeated areas, the cut corners, the enemy waves it makes all the virtues of the story and characters almost irrelevant due pretty much painful gameplay segments.

[Anyroad2]

Siradix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

The DLCS make DA:2 worth it.

The DLCs prove the developers are listening.

Its definitely worth a second chance because of them.

No DLC makes a game worth the purchase. DA2's DLC only shows that the developers have taken suggestions given to them. People didn't want waves of enemies and enemies appearing out of nowhere, you got Legacy. People wanted less brown and puzzles, you got Mark of the Assassin. In both you don't have recycled maps. The wave mechanic is actually reintroduced in Mark of the Assassin. Enemies do appear out of nowhere, such as dogs appearing out of dirt mounds to attack you, enemies appearing out of nowhere at the gate, enemies appearing by the portals, and enemies appearing slightly off the path you can't walk on. Hell that DLC even introduced landmines with timers. Based on MOTA it is obvious Bioware wants wave mechanics in DA3, they are just trying to figure out how to fit it in so that they are not falling from the sky.

The waves in MotA make sense though.
The Ghasts come out of their cave/nest/tunnel, people enter the area through gates, hunters and their dogs come through the forest (where theyve probably been traking) onto a path.

Yeah... I'm not a fan of waves and I'd preffer if Bioware would stick stricktly to the way it was in Legacy, however I'm a pretty reasonable person. I can deal with some wave combat.

[Morroian]

Anyroad2 wrote...

The waves in MotA make sense though.
The Ghasts come out of their cave/nest/tunnel, people enter the area through gates, hunters and their dogs come through the forest (where theyve probably been traking) onto a path.

Exactly the big difference is that they don't come out of nowhere. And Legacy did have waves they were just used sparingly like in MOTA. The thing is the wave mechanic isn't a bad mechanic its just that it was way overused in DA2 and implememented in a less than satisfactory manner.

[Vegos]

Dubya75 wrote...

[Edit] To the haters: If you feel the urge to bash DA2, at least do so intellegently.

I'm not actually "hating" it, but I can describe my feelings about it as follows:

Was DA2 a good computer game? Yes, it was.

Was DA2 a good Dragon Age game? No, it wasn't.

The experience of DA2 to me is bittersweet. As a stand-alone game, disregarding expectations from both the developers and the franchise, it was decent and sweet. The aftertaste is the bitter "What could have been if only they could push that extra mile."

[BBK4114]

CzarJanus sums up my feelings nicely in the comment section.
"Did you know it is possible for powerlessness to be simulated within gameplay? That you don't need to resort to turning a videogame into a film in order to achieve that sensation? Did you also know that gameplay is the sole defining characteristic that separates videogames from passive media, and that to sacrifice it for the sake of "drama" is pretty much the apotheosis of lazy games design?

A game should absolutely be judged on the level of agency a player has - this does not require the player to be a "hero", but rather to be a constant active participant in the ludonarrative. Whatever value Dragon Age 2 has vis a vis the sense of "powerlessness" comes solely from cutscenes and non-interactive segments, and is thus meaningless from a ludonarrative perspective."


Edited to add:   And I still <3 this game even for all my ****ing.  lol.  But for many of us that does NOT mean that we don't want to see vast improvements in the game.  

Modifié par BBK4114, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[LPPrince]

I refuse to go back to this game. Even to pick up the ONE achievement I'm missing.

So heeeeeell no. I want power in games. I didn't have it in DA2, and that was a problem. One of many that made me not really take DA2 too well.

[jbrand2002uk]

The above poster highlights the key problem too many gamers have been accustomed to becoming nigh on a god and clearly get very upset when that changes for me its not a issue because its a game and as a swords and sorcery hack and slash its quite good problem is alot of the criticism is as if its a full on RPG and it isnt. but alas most gamers are too blinded by their hatred to see that.

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 07 novembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I was never one of the "haters" but I could see where they were coming from sometimes... especially when they talked about how it SEEMS Hawke's decisions don't matter... That article though puts it greatly about why it seems that way.... 

As for what he says about characterization... I couldn't agree more... Dragon Age II is just as amazing as Origins was, for different reasons.  The problem I think is that when DA2 didn't let you pick races and origins and all that... people cried WTF and didn't give the game a chance.  Not all did, but even before the game came out there were many cries of foul over the decision to have Hawke be human only.

So, yeah.  I for one cant wait for more DLC, hopefully an expansion, and then finally DA3!  Long live Dragon Age!

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 07 novembre 2011 - 05:30 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Morroian wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

The waves in MotA make sense though.
The Ghasts come out of their cave/nest/tunnel, people enter the area through gates, hunters and their dogs come through the forest (where theyve probably been traking) onto a path.

Exactly the big difference is that they don't come out of nowhere. And Legacy did have waves they were just used sparingly like in MOTA. The thing is the wave mechanic isn't a bad mechanic its just that it was way overused in DA2 and implememented in a less than satisfactory manner.

I heard people complain about this in DA2, but... I dont see it... I see mobs jumping down from rooftops and such all the time in waves (especially during the night attacks in each city area)... yet the way people talk... that doesn't happen.... Do I have some magical version of the game?

[Apollo Starflare]

I liked the article, makes some good points and comes from the interesting (and, I feel, not unique) perspective of someone who was originally against the game who came around to what makes it a flawed yet wonderful experience.

I find it fascinating how many players have an issue with having the ability to control events taken from them in particular. It's obviously a narrative technique that gamers can't deal with very well, probably due to so many of them playing games as a means of empowerment anyway. A shame if you ask me, I found it refreshing. And really, Hawke is still a powerful character, a game changer, but it seems that anything less than complete control isn't enough.

[KilrB]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I liked the article, makes some good points and comes from the interesting (and, I feel, not unique) perspective of someone who was originally against the game who came around to what makes it a flawed yet wonderful experience.

I find it fascinating how many players have an issue with having the ability to control events taken from them in particular. It's obviously a narrative technique that gamers can't deal with very well, probably due to so many of them playing games as a means of empowerment anyway. A shame if you ask me, I found it refreshing. And really, Hawke is still a powerful character, a game changer, but it seems that anything less than complete control isn't enough.

It's not about having "less than complete control", it's about having virtually NO control.

I play, and enjoy, many games in which I don't have "complete" control.

BG, NWN, Fallout, TW, TES, KOTOR, etc ... none of them give you complete control.

They do however give you enough control to make you almost feel like you have complete control.

DA2 slaps you in the face at every turn with the fact that you have NO control.

Want to kill Petrice & co. right of the bat and avoid the hassle? NO, can't do it.

Want to refuse her quest and get on with things? NO, can't do it.

Want to relentlessly hunt down the serial killer before they kill again? NO, can't do it.

 ... NO, can't do it ad nauseum.

I should give DA2 a fourth chance?

NO, won't do it!

[AlexXIV]

Probably OP and the guy he links to don't understand purpose and nature of games. Games are not supposed to let you experience failure or powerlessness. But even aside from that what makes DA2 bad is that so many parts of the story don't make sense. Simply because there is little to no explaination why Hawke has to do things that the game implies he/she has to do. I'm sorry but I can't take this serious, and only because someone claims he was a 'hater' and changed doesn't make it true. More like if he disliked DA2 at first and now loves it then it looks like he disliked it for the wrong reasons. Which is not true for us who dislike it for the right reasons.

The characters may be done well, but interaction is not really. Not being able to change companion's opinions has nothing to do with realism, more with lazyness. Could we change Morrigan's character? No. Could we change her view on certain things? Yes. That's what makes a good character in an RPG. Something which is entirely missing in DA2 because they didn't have the time to flesh dialogues and encounters out more.

DA2 might not be the worst game ever, or worst disappointment of this year, but to say it is better than DA:O is plain subjective. An opinion with which most people would disagree. Disagree not because they are too dumb to see DA2's point. Simply because they don't agree with it. And if people like the OP want to discuss intelligently maybe he should try to start a little less condescending towards people who don't share his opinion.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 novembre 2011 - 07:46 .

[DadeLeviathan]

I agree with what the author is saying, however there is a problem. While the characters and character interactions were very well done, the gameplay and overall story-structure (no overall arch, very bland unsatisfying ending, etc) as well as the overall lazy design of the areas are still there. As good as the characters and character interactions are, they don't make for how bad everything else is for me.

[MagmaSaiyan]

KilrB wrote...

Want to kill Petrice & co. right of the bat and avoid the hassle? NO, can't do it.

Want to kill Alistair and Morrigan and avoid an old god baby, and a sucky Warden/king who is too annoying? No, cant do it.

Want to refuse her quest and get on with things? NO, can't do it.

Want to refuse to take Morrigan when Flemeth offers her to you? No, cant do it.

Want to relentlessly hunt down the serial killer before they kill again? NO, can't do it.

Want to go face Loghain right away instead of waiting for the Landsmeet? No,cant do it.

Modifié par MagmaSaiyan, 08 novembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[Vegos]

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Want to kill Petrice & co. right of the bat and avoid the hassle? NO, can't do it.

Want to kill Alistair and Morrigan and avoid an old god baby, and a sucky Warden/king who is too annoying? No, cant do it.

Yes, can do it. Reject Morrigan's offer and take Alistair with you to fight the Archdemon. No old god baby, dead Alistair.

Want to refuse her quest and get on with things? NO, can't do it.

Want to refuse to take Morrigan when Flemeth offers her to you? No, cant do it.

Justified at least - there's no way you could have found your way out of the wilds without her. There's nothing to lose from refusing to help Petrice.

Want to relentlessly hunt down the serial killer before they kill again? NO, can't do it.

Want to go face Loghain right away instead of waiting for the Landsmeet? No,cant do it.

Could technically do it, but wouldn't get to him. As strong as you are, you're only a party of four, against an army of the best-trained soldier Ferelden has to offer. Suicide mission would be putting it mildly. And what is there to justify the fact that you can't hunt down the killer in 2?

[BBK4114]

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Want to kill Petrice & co. right of the bat and avoid the hassle? NO, can't do it.

Want to kill Alistair and Morrigan and avoid an old god baby, and a sucky Warden/king who is too annoying? No, cant do it.

Want to refuse her quest and get on with things? NO, can't do it.

Want to refuse to take Morrigan when Flemeth offers her to you? No, cant do it.

Want to relentlessly hunt down the serial killer before they kill again? NO, can't do it.

Want to go face Loghain right away instead of waiting for the Landsmeet? No,cant do it.

ROFL!!!  What game did you play?  Obviously not DA:O.

You can: refuse the DR therefore no OGB, You can have Alistair: sacrifice himself; keep him a Grey Warden; make Anora queen and have him executed; make Anora queen and have him exiled; make he and Anora rule together; rule with him if you're a human noble...need I go on?  

Yes you do have to take Morrigan as repayment for Flemeth saving your life. You can then ignore her for the rest of the game, and let her walk before the final battle.

The only thing you HAVE to do to advance to the landsmeet is the story surrounding Arl Eamon. If you don't want to get anymore allies, you don't have too. I don't know why you wouldn't but that decision IS possible.

That was just a silly argument me boyo.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

Want to go face Loghain right away instead of waiting for the Landsmeet? No,cant do it.

You can try.  Go to Denerim right away.  Guess what, Loghain isn't out walking the streets.  Yes, ideally the game would let you walk right up to his fortress and get killed by his guards.

I've been asking BioWare for more freedom like that ever since they took it away in BG2.  We should be free to wander through the game areas even if the game doesn't se eany reason why we would.

[Dubya75]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

Want to go face Loghain right away instead of waiting for the Landsmeet? No,cant do it.

You can try.  Go to Denerim right away.  Guess what, Loghain isn't out walking the streets.  Yes, ideally the game would let you walk right up to his fortress and get killed by his guards.

I've been asking BioWare for more freedom like that ever since they took it away in BG2.  We should be free to wander through the game areas even if the game doesn't se eany reason why we would.

Now there is something we no doubt agree on!
Instead of them blocking off areas everything should just be kept open and if you set foot in an area you don't belong either you get killed or nothing happens. Would be a hell of a lot better than being confined to story-quest-related areas. Makes everything just seem more linear the way they're doing it at the moment.

Modifié par Dubya75, 08 novembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[TheRealJayDee]

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

KilrB wrote...

Want to kill Petrice & co. right of the bat and avoid the hassle? NO, can't do it.

Want to kill Alistair and Morrigan and avoid an old god baby, and a sucky Warden/king who is too annoying? No, cant do it.

Okay, you can't kill Morrigan, but what's the problem with killing of Alistair? And what's the problem with not having the OGB and "a sucky Warden/king who is too annoying"?

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

Want to refuse her quest and get on with things? NO, can't do it.

Want to refuse to take Morrigan when Flemeth offers her to you? No, cant do it.

Yeah, but taking Morrigan with you makes a little sense, cause she's useful and all. Also you have things to do you might need any help for you get. And Petrice's quest - there was simply no apparent reason for any of my Hawkes to help her with her obviously fishy scheme. A quest which seems to be an unrelated side mission at first, turning out to be an unskippable main plot mission, which you can actually refuse and end up being forced to do anyways isn't really comparable to being forced to take an important party member with you.  Besides, which party members in DA2 were forced on you, regardless of your wishes?

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

Want to relentlessly hunt down the serial killer before they kill again? NO, can't do it.

Want to go face Loghain right away instead of waiting for the Landsmeet? No,cant do it.

Going after Loghain alone would be pretty suicidal and not helping against the Blight much. Also, why am I not able to do anything against Meredith before she turns on her full Soul Edge madness mode in the end?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dubya75 wrote...

Instead of them blocking off areas everything should just be kept open and if you set foot in an area you don't belong either you get killed or nothing happens. Would be a hell of a lot better than being confined to story-quest-related areas. Makes everything just seem more linear the way they're doing it at the moment.

It's something they started doing with Baldur's Gate 2 (there was one area that was unjustifiably quest-gated in BG - Cloakwood - the rest of the game was as open as lore allowed), and they've kept doing it ever since.

The only time they've stepped away from this design even a little bit was with the Uncharted Worlds in ME.  Those could be visited as the player saw fit without needing a quest first (though, if there was a quest on a planet, you would immediately be given it as soon as you arrived, which wasn't ideal).

[Vegos]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Instead of them blocking off areas everything should just be kept open and if you set foot in an area you don't belong either you get killed or nothing happens. Would be a hell of a lot better than being confined to story-quest-related areas. Makes everything just seem more linear the way they're doing it at the moment.

It's something they started doing with Baldur's Gate 2 (there was one area that was unjustifiably quest-gated in BG - Cloakwood - the rest of the game was as open as lore allowed), and they've kept doing it ever since.

The only time they've stepped away from this design even a little bit was with the Uncharted Worlds in ME.  Those could be visited as the player saw fit without needing a quest first (though, if there was a quest on a planet, you would immediately be given it as soon as you arrived, which wasn't ideal).

Now, I assume they did it for "pacing". I'm not saying I agree, I'd prefer a wide open sandbox concept myself, but I assume that's why they do it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think they did it to make writing easier. If they always know why the PC is in any given area, the NPCs can always react accordingly. Without that, the NPC dialogue would necessarily need to be a bit more generic. Or at least written with the possibility in mind that the PC wouldn't know what was going on.

I've been telling them for 12 years now that it was a bad idea.

[Vegos]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think they did it to make writing easier. If they always know why the PC is in any given area, the NPCs can always react accordingly. Without that, the NPC dialogue would necessarily need to be a bit more generic. Or at least written with the possibility in mind that the PC wouldn't know what was going on.

I've been telling them for 12 years now that it was a bad idea.

Maybe. But if that's the case maybe they should look at how Alpha Protocol handled NPC interaction according to where you've been and what you've done. Even according to how you acted.  It's executed really nicely in that one, and it proves that the dialogues doesn't need to be generic at all. But I suppose that's a lot more work, which takes time, which BW did not have for DA2.

Modifié par Vegos, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:23 .