684 réponses à ce sujet

[Shepard the Leper]

Il Divo wrote...

It's not "will they carry over?" that is questioned, but "how much?" I respect Chris, but the link he is defending results in a logical contradiction. If I'm to believe that the regular season, which represents ME1 and 2, does not matter, can I really believe that choices featured in those games will matter?

Consider the statement regarding how ME3 is the best place to start, made at various other points. Is it really typical for the best place to start be...at the end of a story? I think that can only be the case if the first two installments are superfluous, otherwise they by necessity would possess information which would make that claim false.

I understand your  point, but it isn't a 'logical contradiction' per se. In a way you can compare this with movies based on books. Anyone can watch the LotR or Harry Potter without having touched the books. Bioware is doing something similar with ME3 so it's perfectly fine for newbies to get started without being at a completely loss what's going on (and why). There's going to be another 'comic' in ME3 and only the choices you can make in the comic will have significant consequences - everything else has little impact - likely we only receive an email, get a couple different lines or briefly meet familiar people. I.E. the same small details those who haven't read the (HP / LotR) books will miss when they only watch the movie.

This doesn't mean the first two installments lose their value. It only means that those who have played them will have a slightly better experience playing ME3. Exactly like those who watch movies after reading the books will have a slightly better experience because they see stuff 'invisible' to those who haven't read the books (like small jokes, references and so forth).

[crimzontearz]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
I've always advocated that ME3 should not cater to the lazy and the stupid....but when I say that I usually am told I mean or an elitisit or irrational

People think that sounds elitist? That's nothing compared to me. I firmly believe life should not cater to the lazy and stupid.

please allow me to qualify my statement

Mass Effect's developers had a vision. A trilogy heavily based on choices and consequences with a story spanning interlacing acts. This did NOT come to be because half way through (possibly thanks to EA) Bioware decided to cater to two kind of people, the lazy and the stupid.

Stupid: these are the peple who believe that, given the above preamble about what Mass Effect was supposed to be, each game should naturally be an entry point in which they will be able to understand everything.

Lazy: These are the people who KNOW a trilogy like this could not be entered at the 2nd or 3d act and still provide the same experience but they can't be bothered to do a modicum of research or play through the other chapters and expect to be catered to receiving the same experience as, say, someone whofollowed the serie from the beginning. These are also the people who would dump the game if they realized that some of the crappy choices they made (like letting people die) had repercussions or resulted in less content for them.

Catering to these people prevented ME to be all that it could have been and Bioware (simply listening to Silverman) is catering to these people....A LOT. I started saying a long time ago Bioware should have found the quad to say "guys...you skipped the previous chapters? Could not be bothered to use Genesis (which we created to facilitate things) or rectify crappy outcomes in following playthroughs? Too lazy to do a modicum of research? Sorry...you are gonna have to deal with less content and less depth"......but right now Bioware woulnd rather push the "ME3 is the best entry point in the serie" crap

[Slayer299]

Veex wrote...
There are gameplay considerations that need to be taken into account in conjunction with the narrative. With respect, I can completely empathize with BioWare in that their latest installment is likely the most refined in terms of gameplay mechanics. You want an audience to experience your latest iteration. To my knowledge they've never stated that the best place to start the Mass Effect story is ME3. I don't think its fair to look at those aspects without context.

Then you would be incorrect since they've said it multiple multiple times by both david silvermand and both Dr's. You can find written article with Ray Muzyka here and a video interview with D. Silverman 2:30 in here where Silverman says its both "a great entry point" and "really the best entry point."

With that it seems pretty clear, to me at least, that ME1 & 2 are getting pushed aside for 3. While I can understand BW marketing to pull in new players for ME3, why discourage them from even looking at ME2 which was their critically reviewed and multi-GOTY title or make their existing base feel shunted aside?

[LilyasAvalon]

Il Divo wrote...

"You could say the previous games were just a preamble to this moment. Everything has been building to this. It's like the Superbowl. Who cares what happened in the regular season? Now's the one that matters."

Besides the fact that if it were not for the regular season, we wouldn't currently be at the superbowl. I find the example very frustrating.

Well, at least we know where Silverman has disappeared off to now.

[aj2070]

What gets me is it just dawned on me that Bioware is already using far more appropriate marketing language on the wrong thing; multiplayer. The whole, "it enhances the experience" marketing theme is how the single player game should be marketed in my opinion; you know, this is a trilogy. Yes if you want an action filled game, Mass Effect 3 is a war story with lots of explosions but for the full experience, you should invest in learning the story.

[onelifecrisis]

Bluko wrote...

Honestly who exactly are you hoping to win over?

First off do you really think people who've never played Mass Effect are reading these articles and going "Gee I really didn't know what to think about Mass Effect before, but I'm totally going to buy ME3 now!"

Yes, that's exactly what the marketing people think will happen. Marketing people are (searching for a euphemism here)... very strange people.

[spirosz]

I was following the pack,
All swallowed in their coats
With scarves of red tied 'round their throats
To keep their little heads
From fallin' in the snow
And I turned 'round and there you go.
And, Michael, you would fall,
And turn the white snow
Red as strawberries in the summertime.

[Pattonesque]

I agree with all of this. Bioware should try to scare off as many new players as possible and cater only to the most entitled sperglords. Their gaming experience will be absolutely perfect, unsullied by all the unwashed masses who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND that Tali is their true love. Historically, companies are most successful when they cater to demented man-children who take the smallest piece of non-information about a new product as a sign that they have been betrayed (BETRAYED, I TELL YOU) by a massive conspiracy designed to do nothing but RUIN THEIR PERSONAL FAVORITE GAME, as if they were the main characters in a terrible, terrible movie.

[YouthCultureForever]

Pattonesque wrote...

I agree with all of this. Bioware should try to scare off as many new players as possible and cater only to the most entitled sperglords. Their gaming experience will be absolutely perfect, unsullied by all the unwashed masses who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND that Tali is their true love. Historically, companies are most successful when they cater to demented man-children who take the smallest piece of non-information about a new product as a sign that they have been betrayed (BETRAYED, I TELL YOU) by a massive conspiracy designed to do nothing but RUIN THEIR PERSONAL FAVORITE GAME, as if they were the main characters in a terrible, terrible movie.

That was perfect.

[DNRB]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

I agree with all of this. Bioware should try to scare off as many new players as possible and cater only to the most entitled sperglords. Their gaming experience will be absolutely perfect, unsullied by all the unwashed masses who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND that Tali is their true love. Historically, companies are most successful when they cater to demented man-children who take the smallest piece of non-information about a new product as a sign that they have been betrayed (BETRAYED, I TELL YOU) by a massive conspiracy designed to do nothing but RUIN THEIR PERSONAL FAVORITE GAME, as if they were the main characters in a terrible, terrible movie.

For the second time today I have to say it is indeed so funny to see how extreme, over the top and insulting some people can be when they rage over other people who have legitimate concerns over a product they will be spending 35 - 60 euro's for.

Why is it so hard to be just a little bit critical about what bioware says and does? ME3 will probably be awesome, but we don't know that yet. So just as people who say it'll be absolutely crap are wrong, people who sweep every question or point of critique aside are wrong.

[CrazyCatDude]

crimzontearz wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

sympathyforsaren wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is the new Dragon Age 2

So, like the previous game in the series, only with a much better story, more interesting companions, and better combat system?

Strangely, I got no problem with that.

...you do realize that Inon Zur pretty much said flat out that DA2 was a rushjob so EA could cash out on the success of the first one right???

So I've heard.  Don't care.  Still a much better game than the first one.  I will admit, DA2 had a lot of the same flaws as ME2.  The changes made did cause it to lose a lot of the sense of scale the first game had, much like removing the Mako and the uncharted worlds made ME2 feel like a smaller game than ME1, even though, in reality, it was much larger in scope.  However, DA was, in so many ways, a simple rehash of fantasy cliches.  Not a poorly done rehash, admittedly, but DA2 had a far more compelling story, and as I said, much more interesting companion characters and a greatly improved combat system.  I would have loved it if the gave had another 10 or 15 hours of story, and fleshed out certain plotlines further, sure, but I never said it was perfect, just a huge improvement on what came before.

[CrazyCatDude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

sympathyforsaren wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is the new Dragon Age 2

So, like the previous game in the series, only worse in almost every concievable way.

I got a problem with that.

-fixored.

You know, things like this make me wonder if I played the same game as everyone else.  But I'll say it again.

"So, like the previous game in the series, only with a much better story, more interesting companions, and a better combat system?

Strangely, I got no problem with that."

[Slayer299]

Pattonesque wrote...

I agree with all of this. Bioware should try to scare off as many new players as possible and cater only to the most entitled sperglords. Their gaming experience will be absolutely perfect, unsullied by all the unwashed masses who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND that Tali is their true love. Historically, companies are most successful when they cater to demented man-children who take the smallest piece of non-information about a new product as a sign that they have been betrayed (BETRAYED, I TELL YOU) by a massive conspiracy designed to do nothing but RUIN THEIR PERSONAL FAVORITE GAME, as if they were the main characters in a terrible, terrible movie.

+
And yet that's not what anyone has said so far. No one has talked about BW ignoring getting new people to the franchise, just not throwing ME and ME2 under the bus for ME3. The same marketing dept did the same to DAO when DA2 came out, something of a trend it would seem.

[Pattonesque]

Slayer299 wrote...

And yet that's not what anyone has said so far. No one has talked about BW ignoring getting new people to the franchise, just not throwing ME and ME2 under the bus for ME3. The same marketing dept did the same to DAO when DA2 came out, something of a trend it would seem.

Slayer299 wrote...
With that it seems pretty clear, to me at least, that ME1 & 2 are
getting pushed aside for 3. While I can understand BW marketing to pull
in new players for ME3, why discourage them from even looking at ME2
which was their critically reviewed and multi-GOTY title or make their
existing base feel shunted aside?

You can take two basic approaches here.

You can look at developer quotes indicating that the majority of your choices will have actual reprecussions in ME3, and that fans of the first two games will naturally be in a better position to appreciate all the callbacks and references that will supposedly be included, and you can think that's how ME3 will play out.

Or, you can look at a quote from a marketer clearly designed to reassure new fans that they don't have to spend over a hundred dollars and almost as many hours catching up with said series in order to enjoy it, and you can conclude that ME3 will somehow ignore the first two games entirely.

Now, I can understand the criticism that your choices have so far lacked a sense of consequence. I just got done playing Alpha Protocol, and your choices in that game had huge repercussions WITHIN THE GAME ITSELF. I hope there will be something similar in ME3.

However, you're in essence saying that the only way ME3 will make you happy is if fans who bought it without playing the first two are somehow punished. Just because you and a small group of friends (this is worth emphasizing -- the people who tend to be SO DISAPPOINTED over something so benign in this number in the few hundreds at most) aren't being treated like special little snowflakes every day until March 6th does not mean Mass Effect 3 will be a betrayal of you personally.

[Pattonesque]

Chill out is what I'm saying, I guess. Some of these posts y'all are making come off as having been written like you expect them to be nailed to a church door and proclaimed to a nation clamoring for justice.

[Il Divo]

Veex wrote...

They aren't just a story Divo. They're stories in the gaming medium and the narrative will have varying levels of significance for each player. Stating that Mass Effect 3 is the best jumping off point in the series isn't equivalent to saying it would be best to watch Return of the Jedi first in the trilogy, or read the last book in a series first.

In so far as Bioware wants to tell us that this is a conclusion to a trilogy, similar to Return of the Jedi, I'd argue that the statements are equivalent. Mass Effect 3 can only be the best starting point if it lacks any significant story/character elements from Mass Effect 1 and 2. One of these two positions is false: either it's independent of its predecessors, or reliant upon them. The question is: which one?  

There are gameplay considerations that need to be taken into account in conjunction with the narrative. With respect, I can completely empathize with BioWare in that their latest installment is likely the most refined in terms of gameplay mechanics. You want an audience to experience your latest iteration. To my knowledge they've never stated that the best place to start the Mass Effect story is ME3. I don't think its fair to look at those aspects without context.

Quote: Mass Effect 3 is a direct sequel to the previous Mass Effect games, but according to BioWare, the game will stand entirely on its own. BioWare Edmonton general manager Aaryn Flynn says that Mass Effect 1 and 2 were just a warm up, and that Mass Effect 3 will be the main event.

You could say the previous games were just a preamble to this moment. Everything has been building to this. It's like the Superbowl. Who cares about the regular season? Now's the one that matters."

For our purposes, the above paragraph and the following line tell us some critical information. If I'm playing ME3 for the gameplay, narrative should not be a factor. So why should the narrative need to stand on its own? He's not talking about this from a gameplay perspective as you are, but from a narrative perspective, indicated by his referral to ME3 as the "Main event" and claiming that the last games are irrelevant. 

To conclude, if your interest in ME3 is the gameplay, which is acceptable, then Bioware would not need to make the central storyline stand on its own, since it's not your focus in playing it.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[Il Divo]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

I understand your  point, but it isn't a 'logical contradiction' per se. In a way you can compare this with movies based on books. Anyone can watch the LotR or Harry Potter without having touched the books. Bioware is doing something similar with ME3 so it's perfectly fine for newbies to get started without being at a completely loss what's going on (and why). There's going to be another 'comic' in ME3 and only the choices you can make in the comic will have significant consequences - everything else has little impact - likely we only receive an email, get a couple different lines or briefly meet familiar people. I.E. the same small details those who haven't read the (HP / LotR) books will miss when they only watch the movie.

But the analogy you're making doesn't take into account that converting from one medium to another is essentially a remake. Harry Potter, as a film, should be able to stand on its own because it's not an extension of the book's storyline; it's a retelling. Likewise, I understood LOTR perfectly fine, despite having never read the novels.

I don't expect HP the movie to rely on HP the book because they're telling the same tale in different formats. I do expect Harry Potter Book 7 to be heavily reliant on the previous six installments, assuming it is a continuation of the same storyline. Telling players ME3 is the best entry point while also arguing that it is a good conclusion don't mesh well, since each rely on completely different narrative styles, more than a short comic could ever hope to explain. As it's the beginning of our story, Mass Effect 1, by standard writing conventions, should be the best starting point, regardless of ME3's  "Galactic War" setting.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Slayer299]

Pattonesque wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

And yet that's not what anyone has said so far. No one has talked about BW ignoring getting new people to the franchise, just not throwing ME and ME2 under the bus for ME3. The same marketing dept did the same to DAO when DA2 came out, something of a trend it would seem.

Slayer299 wrote...
With that it seems pretty clear, to me at least, that ME1 & 2 are
getting pushed aside for 3. While I can understand BW marketing to pull
in new players for ME3, why discourage them from even looking at ME2
which was their critically reviewed and multi-GOTY title or make their
existing base feel shunted aside?

You can take two basic approaches here.

You can look at developer quotes indicating that the majority of your choices will have actual reprecussions in ME3, and that fans of the first two games will naturally be in a better position to appreciate all the callbacks and references that will supposedly be included, and you can think that's how ME3 will play out.

Or, you can look at a quote from a marketer clearly designed to reassure new fans that they don't have to spend over a hundred dollars and almost as many hours catching up with said series in order to enjoy it, and you can conclude that ME3 will somehow ignore the first two games entirely.

Now, I can understand the criticism that your choices have so far lacked a sense of consequence. I just got done playing Alpha Protocol, and your choices in that game had huge repercussions WITHIN THE GAME ITSELF. I hope there will be something similar in ME3.

However, you're in essence saying that the only way ME3 will make you happy is if fans who bought it without playing the first two are somehow punished. Just because you and a small group of friends (this is worth emphasizing -- the people who tend to be SO DISAPPOINTED over something so benign in this number in the few hundreds at most) aren't being treated like special little snowflakes every day until March 6th does not mean Mass Effect 3 will be a betrayal of you personally.

But I am in fact, NOT, saying that the only way for ME3 to make me happy is if new players are punished. In fact I've said the exact opposite. I am not advocating "punishing" new players at all. I am talking from their (Bioware's) marketing campaign thus far seems to be throwing ME and ME2 under the bus with phrases like "Best/only place to enter the series" and "Who cares what happened before, this is the Superbowl" is worrisome to me since it smacks of their "other" recent game campaign. Link to interview.

Again, please stop with the fake accusations that I want to punish new players for me own little world crap. I have at no time hinted or said any such thing. 

[Iakus]

Slayer299 wrote...

But I am in fact, NOT, saying that the only way for ME3 to make me happy is if new players are punished. In fact I've said the exact opposite. I am not advocating "punishing" new players at all. I am talking from their (Bioware's) marketing campaign thus far seems to be throwing ME and ME2 under the bus with phrases like "Best/only place to enter the series" and "Who cares what happened before, this is the Superbowl" is worrisome to me since it smacks of their "other" recent game campaign. Link to interview.

Again, please stop with the fake accusations that I want to punish new players for me own little world crap. I have at no time hinted or said any such thing. 

Agreed

"Although events in previous entries can affect the story in Mass Effect 3, those new to the series need not worry.  This entry stands just fine on its own as an epic tale of galactic war and alien civilizations.  Much like how the first two Star Wars movies provide character and context for Return of the Jedi, yet the movies also remain separate adventures.

"In addition, a 'previously on Mass Effect' prologue will be available to new players, providing a quick background of the events surrounding the game and allowing them to make some of the same choices veteran players experienced in the first two games."

Would that be so hard to market?

[Sgt Stryker]

Nope, that's two whole paragraphs of text. No awesome buttons or Fight Like a Spartan nonsense either. Not market-able.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Agreed

"Although events in previous entries can affect the story in Mass Effect 3, those new to the series need not worry.  This entry stands just fine on its own as an epic tale of galactic war and alien civilizations.  Much like how the first two Star Wars movies provide character and context for Return of the Jedi, yet the movies also remain separate adventures.

"In addition, a 'previously on Mass Effect' prologue will be available to new players, providing a quick background of the events surrounding the game and allowing them to make some of the same choices veteran players experienced in the first two games."

Would that be so hard to market?

Well, as far as avoiding slandering ME1 or 2, I like it. But I personally don't consider Return of the Jedi a separate adventure and don't think it stands on its own particularly well, without that context provided by the first two films. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Well, as far as avoiding slandering ME1 or 2, I like it. But I personally don't consider Return of the Jedi a separate adventure and don't think it stands on its own particularly well, without that context provided by the first two films. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Eh, it's the closesst approximation I could think of.

And of course, Mass Effect will have the advantage of whatever prologue choice-maker ME3 will have.  I mean, imagine if if ROTJ started with a comic about Empire Strikes back, complete with Han and Leia dual-wielding blasters in a battle against Stormtroopers and C3P0 being referred to as a "good kid"  and...

Wait, nevermind:lol:

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Eh, it's the closesst approximation I could think of.

And of course, Mass Effect will have the advantage of whatever prologue choice-maker ME3 will have.  I mean, imagine if if ROTJ started with a comic about Empire Strikes back, complete with Han and Leia dual-wielding blasters in a battle against Stormtroopers and C3P0 being referred to as a "good kid"  and...

Wait, nevermind:lol:

Fair enough.

But my point really is that from the perspective of continuity, there's nothing wrong with ME3 (or RoJ) being unable to stand on their own, given their roles. Actually, that's what would make it continuous. There are great examples of sequels which successfully stand on their own merits (Ex: The Dark Knight), but I'm looking more to the "proper conclusion of a trilogy" line we keep hearing, which requires continuity.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:15 .

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

But I am in fact, NOT, saying that the only way for ME3 to make me happy is if new players are punished. In fact I've said the exact opposite. I am not advocating "punishing" new players at all. I am talking from their (Bioware's) marketing campaign thus far seems to be throwing ME and ME2 under the bus with phrases like "Best/only place to enter the series" and "Who cares what happened before, this is the Superbowl" is worrisome to me since it smacks of their "other" recent game campaign. Link to interview.

Again, please stop with the fake accusations that I want to punish new players for me own little world crap. I have at no time hinted or said any such thing. 

Agreed

"Although events in previous entries can affect the story in Mass Effect 3, those new to the series need not worry.  This entry stands just fine on its own as an epic tale of galactic war and alien civilizations.  Much like how the first two Star Wars movies provide character and context for Return of the Jedi, yet the movies also remain separate adventures.

"In addition, a 'previously on Mass Effect' prologue will be available to new players, providing a quick background of the events surrounding the game and allowing them to make some of the same choices veteran players experienced in the first two games."

Would that be so hard to market?

I'm going to say yes, only because it doesn't sound nearly as exciting as taking Shepard to the "Superbowl of Life" does.