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New IGN article on ME3


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#601
Iakus

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Il Divo wrote...

But my point really is that from the perspective of continuity, there's nothing wrong with ME3 (or RoJ) being unable to stand on their own, given their roles. Actually, that's what would make it continuous. There are great examples of sequels which successfully stand on their own merits (Ex: The Dark Knight), but I'm looking more to the "proper conclusion of a trilogy" line we keep hearing, which requires continuity.  


I agree.  But let's face it, it's not gonna happen.  "Proper conclusion" won't draw new players, and that's what they want even more than retaining old fans.  They will promote it as a standalone game.  Just as they promoted ME2 as such.  

The best we can hope for is that maybe this time, they don't throw the previous games, and the fans of those games, under the bus 

#602
Iakus

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YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Although events in previous entries can affect the story in Mass Effect 3, those new to the series need not worry.  This entry stands just fine on its own as an epic tale of galactic war and alien civilizations.  Much like how the first two Star Wars movies provide character and context for Return of the Jedi, yet the movies also remain separate adventures.

"In addition, a 'previously on Mass Effect' prologue will be available to new players, providing a quick background of the events surrounding the game and allowing them to make some of the same choices veteran players experienced in the first two games."

Would that be so hard to market?


I'm going to say yes, only because it doesn't sound nearly as exciting as taking Shepard to the "Superbowl of Life" does.


Well I'm sure some marketing guy could jazz it up some, make more Star Wars references  ("Look!  a lightsaber!")  I'm just an idea man:P

#603
Il Divo

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iakus wrote...

I agree.  But let's face it, it's not gonna happen.  "Proper conclusion" won't draw new players, and that's what they want even more than retaining old fans.  They will promote it as a standalone game.  Just as they promoted ME2 as such.  

The best we can hope for is that maybe this time, they don't throw the previous games, and the fans of those games, under the bus 


True, I suppose. In the end, I do care more about the final product than the advertising associated with it, in terms of entertainment value. Here's hoping "proper conclusion" wins out come release.

#604
Gemini1179

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The football analogy is a bad analogy in this case. It's like saying: "Who cares about A New Hope and Empire, Return of the Jedi is all you need to watch."

It may play stand-alone, like ME2, but like ME2 I suspect there are default decisions made pertaining to those two games, no? Is there no "Previously in Mass Effect" component that allows a new player to make choices from ME1 and ME2 in order to start ME3? Personally, I'd like to think that the money and time I invested into ME1&2 means something.

No offense to the BW staff, but you guys and gals really need to stop making analogies, they are often quite a stretch and lead readers to draw conclusions they wouldn't otherwise.

#605
King Minos

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I predicted when multiplayer was confirmed that multiplayer would be advertised the most, I got Battlefield 3 with a piece of paper advertising the demo, singleplayer was not even mentioned.

#606
YouthCultureForever

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@iakus

See, saying it that way got your attention didn't it!

I think that's all the IGN article was meant to do. That kind of hyperbole makes the distant ME3 relevant in a season packed with GOTY blockbuster candidates.

I think your way will be the formalized pitch we'll see in the months to come when attention grabbing headlines aren't as necessary. ME3 will be one of the few games on the horizon at the start of 2012 and it won't take as much calculation to generate interest.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 03 novembre 2011 - 09:03 .


#607
Shepard the Leper

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Il Divo wrote...

But the analogy you're making doesn't take into account that converting from one medium to another is essentially a remake. Harry Potter, as a film, should be able to stand on its own because it's not an extension of the book's storyline; it's a retelling. Likewise, I understood LOTR perfectly fine, despite having never read the novels.

I don't expect HP the movie to rely on HP the book because they're telling the same tale in different formats. I do expect Harry Potter Book 7 to be heavily reliant on the previous six installments, assuming it is a continuation of the same storyline. Telling players ME3 is the best entry point while also arguing that it is a good conclusion don't mesh well, since each rely on completely different narrative styles, more than a short comic could ever hope to explain. As it's the beginning of our story, Mass Effect 1, by standard writing conventions, should be the best starting point, regardless of ME3's  "Galactic War" setting.


I'm only saying it isn't necesarry to know all the little details to enjoy a story. You can perfectly read HP 7 without knowing what happened in the first 6 books. You will have a less enjoyable experience and most characters will be nothing more than a name belonging to either side of the conflict, but you can still understand what's going on.

The 'logic' behind the "best starting point" is simple. Bioware considers ME3 to be the best game of the series (so far) which makes it a great entry point for newcomers. It's obviously not the best starting point for Shepard's story, but it makes perfect sense to try and seduce new players with the best stuff ME can deliver. I know there are plenty of players out there who started playing ME2, got addicted to the universe and ended up with ME1 on their computers too. This is also what happened to me with the HP books. I was hard to convince, but finally gave in and started in book 3 (those who convinced me believed that would be a better entry point to deal with my skepticism). I quickly fell in love with the magical world and its inhabitants, dropped book 3 to start at the beginning.

I think it's fair to say that anyone who falls in love with the ME universe will be eager to find out more, regardless the point of entry.

#608
Iakus

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YouthCultureForever wrote...

@iakus

See, saying it that way got your attention didn't it!

I think that's all the IGN article was meant to do. That kind of hyperbole makes the distant ME3 relevant in a season packed with GOTY blockbuster candidates.

I think your way will be the formalized pitch we'll see in the months to come when attention grabbing headlines aren't as necessary. ME3 will be one of the few games on the horizon at the start of 2012 and it won't take as much calculation to generate interest.


Sure, it got my attention by p*ssing me off.  And a lot of other people too.  Coming on the heels of the multiplayer reveal, and this Origin to-do, not a good thing.

If the party line gets modified, I suspect it will be due to the negative outcry.  Sorta like how CH went from "ME3 is the best place to start" to "ME3 is a great place to start"

Modifié par iakus, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:18 .


#609
cindercatz

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Wow, it was a poor marketing line, but 25 pages? lol

edit for clarity: The story continuity is hugely important to me too. Just a bit mystifying that it got this response when we all know every major choice has to play into it.

Modifié par cindercatz, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:31 .


#610
Iakus

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It's what happens when they both act secretive about the story and say "Who cares about ME1 and ME2?" ;)

Modifié par iakus, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:31 .


#611
cindercatz

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lol, true enough

I'm glad they're not spoiling the story, though. ;-)

#612
Balek-Vriege

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iakus wrote...

It's what happens when they both act secretive about the story and say "Who cares about ME1 and ME2?" ;)


You said "Who cares about ME1 or ME2."  Bioware said that ME3 is a great starting point.

Big difference.  Image IPB

#613
Iakus

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Balek-Vriege wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's what happens when they both act secretive about the story and say "Who cares about ME1 and ME2?" ;)


You said "Who cares about ME1 or ME2."  Bioware said that ME3 is a great starting point.

Big difference.  Image IPB



"Certainly it's a very polished experience. In the story it starts at a time with a very singular focus and purpose in the galaxy. You could say the previous games were just a preamble to this moment. Everything has been building to this. It's like the Superbowl. Who cares what happened in the regular season? Now's the one that matters." 

Small difference ;)


#614
Iakus

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double post

Modifié par iakus, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:42 .


#615
Balek-Vriege

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iakus wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's what happens when they both act secretive about the story and say "Who cares about ME1 and ME2?" ;)


You said "Who cares about ME1 or ME2."  Bioware said that ME3 is a great starting point.

Big difference.  Image IPB



"Certainly it's a very polished experience. In the story it starts at a time with a very singular focus and purpose in the galaxy. You could say the previous games were just a preamble to this moment. Everything has been building to this. It's like the Superbowl. Who cares what happened in the regular season? Now's the one that matters." 

Small difference ;)


Yeah, but he's talking about football when the regular season is said in done in an analogy.  He's not saying ME1 and ME2 suck and aren't worth buying.  He's saying that ME3 plot will dwarf the last two just like the Superbowl tends to dwarf the regular season.  It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
 
Image IPB

Therefore ME3 is a good place to start and that's true.  The same way non-sports fans will watch the Superbowl and enjoy it without watching the regular season.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:46 .


#616
Iakus

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Balek-Vriege wrote...

Yeah, but he's talking about football when the regular season is said in done in an analogy.  He's not saying ME1 and ME2 suck and aren't worth buying.  He's saying that ME3 plot will dwarf the last two just like the Superbowl tends to dwarf the regular season.  It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
 
Image IPB

Therefore ME3 is a good place to start and that's true.  The same way non-sports fans will watch the Superbowl and enjoy it without watching the regular season.


Which I suppose is fine if all you care about is a particvular game, and $2 million commercials.

But this is a story, not a game.  Everything Shepard did from Eden Prime on shapes the stage fro this game.  Over a thousand decisions were supposedly imported from both games for this.  The results of those decisions indicate what kind of Shepard is left to deal with the Reapers.  And what kind of roster his "team" has.  It determines what kind of game the Superbowl will be like.  A one-sided blowout, a see-saw battle, a defensive game, a nail-biter, whatever.  If most of SHepard's A-team ended up dead beyond the Omega IV Relay, that's going to make for a different game than a "No one Left Behind" playthrough.  

So yeah, one should care what happened in the regular season.

Which is why I say if they want to calm fears about coming in at the end of a trilogy, they should play up whatever new choice making function they will have for nonimports.

#617
YouthCultureForever

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iakus wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

@iakus

See, saying it that way got your attention didn't it!

I think that's all the IGN article was meant to do. That kind of hyperbole makes the distant ME3 relevant in a season packed with GOTY blockbuster candidates.

I think your way will be the formalized pitch we'll see in the months to come when attention grabbing headlines aren't as necessary. ME3 will be one of the few games on the horizon at the start of 2012 and it won't take as much calculation to generate interest.


Sure, it got my attention by p*ssing me off.  And a lot of other people too.  Coming on the heels of the multiplayer reveal, and this Origin to-do, not a good thing.

If the party line gets modified, I suspect it will be due to the negative outcry.  Sorta like how CH went from "ME3 is the best place to start" to "ME3 is a great place to start"


Why won't you acknowledge the logical reason why this was done? It wasn't done to anger you. It's a smart marketing strategy.

A blurb that belongs on the back of the game case isn't going to garner attention the way the Superbowl analogy would. Not in this season's gaming blitz. Too many other games are coming out for that to be effective. If you're a casual RPG fan or a fan of the Action genre and you read this article you're not going to care about how a series you haven't previously played plans to implement and adjust it's import save feature. Hearing about the supplementary interactive comic isn't going to make you say, "Man, I want that game". The bold Superbowl claim will grab your attention. The idea of taking the iconic hero to the "Superbowl of Life" - the culmination of his existence - that makes an impression.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 04 novembre 2011 - 12:18 .


#618
Il Divo

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

I'm only saying it isn't necesarry to know all the little details to enjoy a story. You can perfectly read HP 7 without knowing what happened in the first 6 books. You will have a less enjoyable experience and most characters will be nothing more than a name belonging to either side of the conflict, but you can still understand what's going on.


So how would someone, with no knowledge  understand the characters, the plot, locations, the various tools and items which Rowling assumes people are familiar with? Book 7 assumes prior knowledge and affiliation with all six books. It actively relies upon major plot points in all of them.  It's not even a coherent story without any of that information, which you are claiming is possible to understand. Even if I considered it the best in the series, I would not direct any reader to start there any more than I'd direct them to begin with Martin's A Storm of Swords. Context is everything in a story, which is given less when the author assumes you already know the details.

Primary point being: I think you're using the term "understand" too liberally here. Any viewer/reader is going to have a dramatically less enjoyable experience if they can't even digest the events which they are reading. And if that's the case, would you really direct that person to the final installment as the "best starting point"?

The 'logic' behind the "best starting point" is simple. Bioware considers ME3 to be the best game of the series (so far) which makes it a great entry point for newcomers.


Best game in the series is not going to be synonymous with the best starting point, assuming the best starting point is intended to allow maximum coherence and understanding of the story being told so far. I consider Star Wars: Episode VI to be the best of the original trilogy (others say Episode V), but I still would not recommend anyone to start at that point, because a substantial amount of what is good about it is entirely reliant on understanding the context of the trilogy. If ME3 is the best starting point, that is the prime indicator that ME1/ME2 are irrelevant.

Remember, the first installment in any series, whether it's a movie, game, or book, is always going to possess the greatest clarity, from a writing standpoint. It's where the author is 100% aware that the viewer has not engaged any of this material before, and so it must all be presented in a manner which feels logical and digestible. On subsequent installments, even if a writer takes the "recap" approach, it can never approach the same level of detail contained in that entire first installment; they can only hope to give a quick summary, unless (as Bioware claims) ME3 stands completely on its own.

This is also what happened to me with the HP books. I was hard to convince, but finally gave in and started in book 3 (those who convinced me believed that would be a better entry point to deal with my skepticism). I quickly fell in love with the magical world and its inhabitants, dropped book 3 to start at the beginning.


I would say your entry at the third book still wasn't as good a starting point as the first novel. The entire point of Book I is so that Rowling has a method of introducing the reader to the universe, along with the protagonist. It's the same tactic we see with Neo in the Matrix; he doesn't understand the real world any more than the audience (us) does, which is why he's a great means to explain to the reader how things work.

I would argue that you enjoyed Book 3 in spite of your late entry, rather than because of it. The inherent story may be better than that being told in Book 1, but that doesn't make the story easier to understand by starting halfway into the saga. That's the problem with the "ME3 is the best starting point". It cannot be the best without everything before it being irrelevant, because otherwise they would be telling us "play the original two, they provide context/meaning for ME3".

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:27 .


#619
Balek-Vriege

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iakus wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Yeah, but he's talking about football when the regular season is said in done in an analogy.  He's not saying ME1 and ME2 suck and aren't worth buying.  He's saying that ME3 plot will dwarf the last two just like the Superbowl tends to dwarf the regular season.  It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
 
Image IPB

Therefore ME3 is a good place to start and that's true.  The same way non-sports fans will watch the Superbowl and enjoy it without watching the regular season.


Which I suppose is fine if all you care about is a particvular game, and $2 million commercials.

But this is a story, not a game.  Everything Shepard did from Eden Prime on shapes the stage fro this game.  Over a thousand decisions were supposedly imported from both games for this.  The results of those decisions indicate what kind of Shepard is left to deal with the Reapers.  And what kind of roster his "team" has.  It determines what kind of game the Superbowl will be like.  A one-sided blowout, a see-saw battle, a defensive game, a nail-biter, whatever.  If most of SHepard's A-team ended up dead beyond the Omega IV Relay, that's going to make for a different game than a "No one Left Behind" playthrough.  

So yeah, one should care what happened in the regular season.

Which is why I say if they want to calm fears about coming in at the end of a trilogy, they should play up whatever new choice making function they will have for nonimports.




Trust me. I have had my share of friends/coworkers say to me:

"How can you possibly just watch the Superbowl/World Series/Stanley Cup Final."  for similar reasons going teams/players perform etc.  Remember even sports have "storylines." The fact is when you have something with a "finale," it usually takes precedent over the events leading up to it.  While the events of ME1 and ME2 are very important to us who played the first two games, that doesn't mean a new fan wanting to play only ME3 (because of lazyness, the previous games being "out dated," financial reasons etc), is not going to enjoy/understand the series by starting on the third installment.

The same way avid sports fans knowing how team x and y got to the Superbowl is very important to them, but that doesn't mean someone who hates watching regular season football can't enjoy the Superbowl or understand it.  It only means the avid fans may have more insight into the player/team performances.

If Bioware were to replace:

"ME3 is a great/perfect place to start."

With "ME3 is a great place to start, but you really should play ME1/ME2 first to get the big picture."

That would turn anyone away who was on the fence about buying the game, because they may have to play two former games they can't afford, don't have time to play or just don't want to play.  That doesn't bring new fans to the franchise.

Regardless of that, we're pushing the football analogy off the cliff while leaving the main message of "Mass Effect 3 is a great place to start" behind.  Have to remember the intention of the analogy in the first place.
Image IPB

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:23 .


#620
Balek-Vriege

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Il Divo wrote... 

Primary point being: I think you're using the term "understand" too liberally here. Any viewer/reader is going to have a dramatically less enjoyable experience if they can't even digest the events which they are reading. And if that's the case, would you really direct that person to the final installment as the "best starting point"?


A great point made there.  However, Mass Effect isn't a novel with whole chapters sometimes dedicated to the development of one character.  ME1 and ME2 can be very well explained in a few paragraphs and the characters within the games can be summarized in 1-3 sentences each.  Remember this is a video game in movie format, not a novel.

That means Bioware has ample opportunity with a couple hundred words to explain the plot of ME1 and ME2 within the entire span of ME3.  So far we know they can do this by:

-  Using the intro format they have used since ME1
-  ME3 starts with a trail concerning actions in Arrival and will most likely tie into other actions in ME1 and ME2.
-  Using James Vega ignorance of Shepard's real exploits to explain certain parts of the story specifically.

Hopefully it doesn't come off as a mission debriefing every two seconds like JRPGs do it.  If done correctly new players should know everthing they need to know by the end of ME3, while finding the events of ME1 and ME2 interesting enough to feel like playing them out.

Basically to answer your question I would say "yes," because Mass Effect's storyline and plot is not complicated and can be easily digested.  Even in ME2 I thought the two-three paragraphs at the beginning summed up ME1 pretty well.  The same way ME1's intro summary presented "the story so far" well.  I do agree in principal that playing all the games leads to the most enjoyment storywise.  The question is how much more?

That's up to each individual and their experience with the series.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:51 .


#621
100k

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YouthCultureForever wrote...

But this is one tiny article by IGN everyone is fixating on. The GameInformer Cover issue wasn't enough? The release of ME: Conviction and ME: Incursion weren't enough? Will the upcoming comics be enough? Will ME: Deception be enough? Will a Collector's edition be enough? There's Bioware Pulse TV, the devs answer questions on their twitter accounts. There is so much media already catered to the hardcore ME player that I can't understand why its such a big deal when Bioware dials up promotion on the casual fan. The last thing they do is overlook us.

You see what I'm saying?


I never thought about it this way, but you definitely bring up a good point.

I still say that Bioware should tell people to go out and rent/buy a copy of their previous games, but the hardcore audience isn't being neglected. 

#622
YouthCultureForever

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100k wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

But this is one tiny article by IGN everyone is fixating on. The GameInformer Cover issue wasn't enough? The release of ME: Conviction and ME: Incursion weren't enough? Will the upcoming comics be enough? Will ME: Deception be enough? Will a Collector's edition be enough? There's Bioware Pulse TV, the devs answer questions on their twitter accounts. There is so much media already catered to the hardcore ME player that I can't understand why its such a big deal when Bioware dials up promotion on the casual fan. The last thing they do is overlook us.

You see what I'm saying?


I never thought about it this way, but you definitely bring up a good point.

I still say that Bioware should tell people to go out and rent/buy a copy of their previous games, but the hardcore audience isn't being neglected. 


Thank you for considering my position. This is just how the marketing game is played. 

#623
crimzontearz

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CrazyCatDude wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

sympathyforsaren wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is the new Dragon Age 2


So, like the previous game in the series, only with a much better story, more interesting companions, and better combat system?

Strangely, I got no problem with that.


...you do realize that Inon Zur pretty much said flat out that DA2 was a rushjob so EA could cash out on the success of the first one right???


So I've heard.  Don't care.  Still a much better game than the first one.  I will admit, DA2 had a lot of the same flaws as ME2.  The changes made did cause it to lose a lot of the sense of scale the first game had, much like removing the Mako and the uncharted worlds made ME2 feel like a smaller game than ME1, even though, in reality, it was much larger in scope.  However, DA was, in so many ways, a simple rehash of fantasy cliches.  Not a poorly done rehash, admittedly, but DA2 had a far more compelling story, and as I said, much more interesting companion characters and a greatly improved combat system.  I would have loved it if the gave had another 10 or 15 hours of story, and fleshed out certain plotlines further, sure, but I never said it was perfect, just a huge improvement on what came before.


all of which is utterly subjective. As far as I can see on the forums DA2 is regarded VERY negatively...also

DA metascore = PC 91, Xbox 86, PS 87
DA2 metascore = PC/PS 82, Xbox 79


just throwing it there


what you can call a FACT is that someone working on the game who is not owned by EA directly pretty much said that the game was very rushed for Bioware's standards

#624
crimzontearz

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Pattonesque wrote...

I agree with all of this. Bioware should try to scare off as many new players as possible and cater only to the most entitled sperglords. Their gaming experience will be absolutely perfect, unsullied by all the unwashed masses who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND that Tali is their true love. Historically, companies are most successful when they cater to demented man-children who take the smallest piece of non-information about a new product as a sign that they have been betrayed (BETRAYED, I TELL YOU) by a massive conspiracy designed to do nothing but RUIN THEIR PERSONAL FAVORITE GAME, as if they were the main characters in a terrible, terrible movie.


...........pathetic at best, honestly.

Go back and re-watch Casey giving us the selling points of ME1 when it was first showcased then compare them with the direction ME 2 and 3 have taken. Just because some people are angry and vocal about this (especially when there is no real dialogue about it with the people working on the product) that does not mean they are nerd raging idiots

not to mention that keeping to the core ideas of what the franchise was supposed to do was completely compatible with not  pushing the newcomers away, of course, no more than any trilogy based narrative with a modicum of self respect. 

#625
Biotic Sage

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@ The above conversation: Dragon Age Origins is objectively a better game than Dragon Age 2.

I know that it is TECHNICALLY subjective, but c'mon man, seriously? I think it's bolder for you to claim that DA2 is subjectively better than DAO than for me to claim that DAO is objectively better. haha