223 réponses à ce sujet

[Izhalezan]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Right, other than Shepard working closely with an avowed enemy of her people she has no reason to be upset.

Ep wrong post.

Modifié par Izhalezan, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[Terror_K]

A much as I usually find fault with ME2 in many ways, the characterisation isn't one of them. There are a couple of exceptions, but my take is basically as follows:-

Kaidan/Ashley -- We didn't see enough of them, but the biggest fault here was that they were basically just weak substitutes for each other and didn't really seem to shine and both pretty much acted the same. Their refusal to listen to you was the main issue, but that was as much a fault of actual proper anti-Cerberus dialogue being absent (which is a common issue with ME2 overall).

Liara -- Her development annoyed me the most, but both Redemption and LotSB helped erase most of the damage. The biggest issue for me wasn't so much the sudden character reversal, but that in the vanilla game without the comic it was't explained or explored enough. It was also a little too extreme, IMO. I know that was largely the point, but it came across a little ham-fisted and brick-to-the-face-esque. Again though, Redemption helps a bit, and LotSB improves on it a lot.

Tali -- Tali was essentially the same, IMO. She was a little more mature and grown-up. She seems to have become somewhat independent. In some ways I can't help but feel being with Shepard again will actually stunt her character growth in that she'll come to rely on him/her again after two years of actually becoming emtionally stronger. Tali has always had her issues with The Geth, even in ME1. I always saw her a little like Star Trek: TNG's Captain Picard with regards to the Borg: mostly a morally sound, paragon character, but thrown off-balance when it comes to one particular faction.

Garrus -- Garrus was basically the same, but more badass. My old issue with Garrus in ME2 was too many calibrations and not enough actual discussions.

Wrex -- Essentially the same too, IMO. He's always been a smart, wise krogan compared to most of his species who actually realises they have to put their old selves aside for the good of their species and things aren't the same since the Rachni Wars and the genophage.

[InvincibleHero]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

every character weve run into seems far too important and far to frequent. im running into more familiar faces in ME then i do in real life. its not even done in an apealing way becasue our favorite characters cameos are just as bad as running into fist or helena blake. then theres tali, daughter of one of the most important quarians. liara, daughtter to matriarch benezia, legion, king of the geth, wrex, king of the krogan. ......not to mention getting resurected by TIM..

i think one of the most important parts of both ME games is the squad. i love anderson and saren and prolly aria too, but never more then my least favorite squadmate. i like that bioware is going back to a smaller group, i just hope they are fleshed out to the max. id like it to take a long time before garrus ever needs to start calibtrating. there will be plenty of oportunity for the world to feel fleshed out seeing all those reocurring people as well.

Wow I actually have to agree with you for once.  All the characters suffer from specialitis though I have to say most books and movies do that as well. My favorite series LOTR novels have a wizard that is a minor deity that comes to life, a ranger that is really a king, a warrior that is the son of the ruler of Minas Tirith, I think I'll stop there to make it have brevity.

I think what could freshen up the convos is something they did in DA: O. Characters would approach the warden and  have a conversation about major events that happened or things that were important to them. Like Alistair berating your warden for doing something he did not want to do. Spontaneity would add more character. As it is you have to walk to them and check if they have something new to say. Maybe have a in-mail or list with a light next to their name on Shep's computer telling you who needs talking to. I'd rather call them to his office though.

[1136342t54_]

Terror_K wrote...

A much as I usually find fault with ME2 in many ways, the characterisation isn't one of them. There are a couple of exceptions, but my take is basically as follows:-

Kaidan/Ashley -- We didn't see enough of them, but the biggest fault here was that they were basically just weak substitutes for each other and didn't really seem to shine and both pretty much acted the same. Their refusal to listen to you was the main issue, but that was as much a fault of actual proper anti-Cerberus dialogue being absent (which is a common issue with ME2 overall).

It was very annoying and Bioware could have done it much better but I'm pretty sure things will be expanded on in the next game.

Liara -- Her development annoyed me the most, but both Redemption and LotSB helped erase most of the damage. The biggest issue for me wasn't so much the sudden character reversal, but that in the vanilla game without the comic it was't explained or explored enough. It was also a little too extreme, IMO. I know that was largely the point, but it came across a little ham-fisted and brick-to-the-face-esque. Again though, Redemption helps a bit, and LotSB improves on it a lot.

You also have to think about the crap she went through in ME1. Hell losing her mother to the Reapers and quite possibly seeing her die before her eyes will likely scar her for life. Her thirst for revenge was likely related to her not wanting to lose anyone else who was close to her (Feron). The things she saw and has done has likely changed her. Most people though seem to ignore the part about her mother lol.

Tali -- Tali was essentially the same, IMO. She was a little more mature and grown-up. She seems to have become somewhat independent. In some ways I can't help but feel being with Shepard again will actually stunt her character growth in that she'll come to rely on him/her again after two years of actually becoming emtionally stronger. Tali has always had her issues with The Geth, even in ME1. I always saw her a little like Star Trek: TNG's Captain Picard with regards to the Borg: mostly a morally sound, paragon character, but thrown off-balance when it comes to one particular faction.

The only problem I had with the Tali was that she suffered a bit too much from hero worship. 

[Han Shot First]

Liara's character development was an improvement IMO.

She's a much more interesting character in ME2 and LotSB than in ME1, but then again I'm not really a fan of the 'shy and virginal but hot geek girl' type character that a lot of gamers seem to drool over. With Tali sort of filling that role in Mass Effect 2 it also made sense also to move Liara in a different direction. The only mistake the writers made IMO was in not giving Liara a couple personality traits in ME1, where her change of career/personality in ME2 wouldn't have seemed so drastic. In retrospect perhaps she should been a little more paragade than paragon in ME1.

I like Wrex's character development as well EXCEPT for the fact that it kept him off the squad in ME2. One plus however is that if he survived ME1 he's guaranteed to still be alive in ME3. Hopefully that means he is recruitable at some point.

Garrus' character development I was not happy with however, because it totally negated player choice. What was the point of the conversation with Garrus in ME1 where you could influence him to either become a Spectre or go back to C-Sec, if he would take neither option in ME2? My guess is that originally the conversation was intended to have some influence on Garrus but at a later date that idea was thrown out and they decided to make him Omega's batman instead. Hopefully that gets rectified in ME3, with Garrus returning as either a Spectre or a space cop, depending on that ME1 conversation.

Ashley calling Cerberus 'racist' wasn't a sudden shift in character. In fact it is actually in line with her personality in Mass Effect 1, where if you take her to the Terra Firma rally, she'll criticize them quite harshly for being small-minded bigots. She also has a elevator conversation with Tali where she says something along the lines that she hopes Tali's contribution against the Geth will be recognized and end some of the prejudices people have against the Quarians. She isn't a racist at all, and the whole notion that she is stems from the comment where she says that she can't tell the aliens from the animals. That line was actually intended to be said about the keepers, and it is a bug that Ashley will say it elsewhere when the context isn't clear.

Tali also didn't change radically from ME1 to ME2, with the exception of being given a lot more dialogue and being made more interesting. In ME1 she was a walking codex entry and the most boring person on the squad. But her outlook didn't change much between games. She has always been a bit of an apologist for the Quarians during the Morning War. In fact Shepard can point out that the Geth were only defending themselves in ME1, and Tali reacts angrily/defensively.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[SandTrout]

The Horizon reunion was handled badly. As I have stated in multiple places, it would have been better to have the Collectors snag the VS and then have the reunion on the CB so that the VS would be understandably shaken and probably in shock.

As it was played, it seemed like a poorly contrived means of keeping the VS out of your ME2 squad with no clear excuse for the VS's irrational behavior.

[Han Shot First]

SandTrout wrote...

The Horizon reunion was handled badly. As I have stated in multiple places, it would have been better to have the Collectors snag the VS and then have the reunion on the CB so that the VS would be understandably shaken and probably in shock.

As it was played, it seemed like a poorly contrived means of keeping the VS out of your ME2 squad with no clear excuse for the VS's irrational behavior.

The biggest problem with the reunion was not so much the VS' reaction, but the fact Shepard isn't given any dialogue to explain what has been going on. The dialogue pretty much plays out like this:

Ashley: Cerberus?! I can't believe you've turned traitor and are working with those terrorists Shepard.

Shepard: Forget about that Ash. Come on, it'll be like old times!

That isn't the exact dialogue of course but that's the gist of how the conversation on Horizon plays out. Shepard makes no attempt to explain and just tries to sell on Ash on joining the team, by saying it'll be like old times.

No wonder she tells him to go pound sand. He was a bit off his game that day.

[vader da slayer]

on the point of ashely's "change" in character. in ME1 don't let her die and take her with you to the citadel and go talk to the Terra Firma guy. explore the convo options and you will see her character didn't change at all.

[Chromie]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

To be fair that tactic worked pretty well with Shepard for Tali and Garrus.

To be fair Tali and Garrus aren't apart of the Alliance Military. Garrus left C-Sec and gladly vigilante and Tali well we can assume has been missing Shepard since Haestrom.

[onelifecrisis]

It's interesting, and surprising (to me), to see just how varied the opinions are here. I guess it just goes to show how open to interpretation the original cast were. That said, most people do seem to agree that the change in Liara was ridiculous.

Han Shot First wrote...

She's a much more interesting character in ME2 and LotSB than in ME1, but then again I'm not really a fan of the 'shy and virginal but hot geek girl' type character

While I agree, I don't think that justifies her rewrite. If a character is dull they should take them out and put in a new character. Or have the dull character develop in an interesting way. Not just rewrite the entire f*cking character - that's bad writing whether you liked the original character or not.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[Drone223]

@113634t54
Agreeded and her romance imo did a lot of damge to her character from a strong independent adolecent in ME1 to a horny fangirl in ME2 once the romance starts

Modifié par Drone223, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well, it's not like he had a choice of whether he wanted to work with Cerberus or not, which he makes clear to Tali. And considering that Sole Survivor Shepard has more reason to hate Cerberus than Tali does, and Shepard isn't angry at himself for it, Tali should not be angry with Shepard for the same thing. 

Last I checked Shepard's inability to care about the whole Akuze thing was something that bothered most fans.

Still, the way I see it is like she said, she is joining Shepard, not Cerberus, and will give him the grenades to blow them up if he asks for them.

[CptBomBom00]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Oh, well, Tali should have no reason at all to be angry at Shepard specifically. Then again, neither should the VS.

Right, other than Shepard working closely with an avowed enemy of her people she has no reason to be upset.

Well, it's not like he had a choice of whether he wanted to work with Cerberus or not, which he makes clear to Tali. And considering that Sole Survivor Shepard has more reason to hate Cerberus than Tali does, and Shepard isn't angry at himself for it, Tali should not be angry with Shepard for the same thing. 

Actually if you have helped Liara with this data thing, she say's that she gave Shepard's body to Cerberus, because she couldn't let him/her go, So Shepard never was asked about his opinion.

Also beside sheps body falling into collectros hands or SB, Liara always could've destroy him or her by throwing the body into lava or something.
But by doing this she actaully could've doom the whole galaxy and humna race too.

[CptData]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Ashley isn't xenophobic.

I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated so frequently.

Because she has nuanced views that don't neatly follow the average Paragon player's "let's all join hands and sing Kumbayah on the Citadel" way of handling the galaxy. 

Funny. Most of my Shepards are >95% Paragon and work well (perfect) with Ashley. Maybe that's because in my headcanon Shepard needs someone to keep him grounded. And that's Ashley with a more pragmatic view on the situation.

She's not xenophobic and no rasist. She just doesn't trust aliens because they're "awesome". Basically, she's on one line with Shepard: Respect (trust) is something you need to earn, it's not given for free.


Back to topic and stuff the OP wrote:

I don't think chars changed that much. Garrus is still Garrus - but he took the wrong road. He tried to be like Shepard, but failed. He's an ex-cop that wants to do something against criminals without getting hindered by protocols and rules. But of course, those rules have a meaning or a cop wouldn't be different from a criminal - therefore, Garrus character is authentic in ME and ME2.

Tali works for me. Maybe she was "Shepard's little sister" in ME, but she matured a lot in two years. She came back with great gifts from her pilgrimage and her part in taking down Saren helped making her to a specialist that takes difficult / impossible missions.

The VS works for me, especially since Shepard is somehow unable to do the "suave speech" s/he usually uses to convince someone. Ashley seems to go back to her "don't trust aliens" state, but besides that, the VS reaction is understandable.

Liara is the one with the least believeable character change. From naive archeologist to hard-boiled intel broker / Shadowbroker? Especially since Asari don't change from one second to another, it doesn't work for me. So the only character change I don't see as "believeable" is Liara's.

[Adugan]

Well it goes with the whole "epic struggle" thing. Shepard is pretty much the most iconic person in the galaxy, so there is a "seeping effect" that makes his followers iconic too. Liara is the SB, Kaidan/Ashley will probably be fleet commanders, Vega or Garrus will probably become Spectres, Tali will probably become Flotilla Admiral, Wrex becomes the leader of his people. It would be more wrong if Shepard was this uber-hero and his team was a bunch of nobodies.
It may have been a bit off to cast some characters the way they were cast in ME1, but nobody can help them now. Writer vision changed and they had to make do with what plot they had.

[Gabey5]

Arcian wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

GMagnum wrote...

ppl jus dont like jacob cuz hes black

People do not like Jacob because he is a poorly written character.

People do not like Jacob because he's the only sane man in a crew full of crazies.

you can say that again. He was refreshing, just a soldier trying to do what is right

Modifié par Gabey5, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:32 .

[onelifecrisis]

Gabey5 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

GMagnum wrote...

ppl jus dont like jacob cuz hes black

People do not like Jacob because he is a poorly written character.

People do not like Jacob because he's the only sane man in a crew full of crazies.

you can say that again. He was refreshing, just a soldier trying to do what is right

A fictional soldier just trying to do what's right is refreshing? Mmmmyeahnotreally.

[Rune-Chan]

It's probably a subtle point on Bioware's part. In the two years since Shepard has gone, everyone and everything has changed, except her/him, Chakwas, Garrus and Joker all point out how Shepard hasn't changed all that much, it show how it was Shepard holding them all together, not only as a group, but the impact he/she had on them as individuals.

[SNascimento]

With the exception of Liara whose development was unexpected, all other character fallowed a very natural path.

Modifié par SNascimento, 02 novembre 2011 - 12:21 .