223 réponses à ce sujet

[CptData]

SNascimento wrote...

With the exception of Liara whose development was unexpected, all other character fallowed a very natural path.

Indeed. Liara's development from naive archeologist to intel broker is already a hard one, but still possible. From intel broker to hard-boiled Shadowbroker? Nah. Doesn't fit. It doesn't work for me, not at all.
But I accepted it - Liara seems to have a huge fanbase and half of BW-devs seems to be Liara fans as well. That's why we have "Lair of the Shadowbroker" but no "The Virmire Survivor" DLC

[Barquiel]

CptData wrote...

Liara is the one with the least believeable character change. From naive archeologist to hard-boiled intel broker / Shadowbroker? Especially since Asari don't change from one second to another, it doesn't work for me. So the only character change I don't see as "believeable" is Liara's.

Liara was only insecure (naive) when it came to her feelings for Shepard...as she said herself during LOTSB. But she was always one of the more mature squadmates in ME1 (listen to the banters, for example) and a bit ruthless. Another example would be how maturely Liara handled her own mother's death.

[SNascimento]

CptData wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

With the exception of Liara whose development was unexpected, all other character fallowed a very natural path.

Indeed. Liara's development from naive archeologist to intel broker is already a hard one, but still possible. From intel broker to hard-boiled Shadowbroker? Nah. Doesn't fit. It doesn't work for me, not at all.
But I accepted it - Liara seems to have a huge fanbase and half of BW-devs seems to be Liara fans as well. That's why we have "Lair of the Shadowbroker" but no "The Virmire Survivor" DLC

.
I think once she became an information broker, taking the chance to be the shadow broker was a compatible move... 
.,
Anyway, I missed VS DLC too... they could have fit it into the Arrival DLC and make it that much better. 

[nitefyre410]

CptData wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Ashley isn't xenophobic.

I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated so frequently.

Because she has nuanced views that don't neatly follow the average Paragon player's "let's all join hands and sing Kumbayah on the Citadel" way of handling the galaxy. 

Funny. Most of my Shepards are >95% Paragon and work well (perfect) with Ashley. Maybe that's because in my headcanon Shepard needs someone to keep him grounded. And that's Ashley with a more pragmatic view on the situation.

She's not xenophobic and no rasist. She just doesn't trust aliens because they're "awesome". Basically, she's on one line with Shepard: Respect (trust) is something you need to earn, it's not given for free.


*snip*  

On the Ashley front  - This says it all.   People take that whole terrible line  and blow it up - making a  much to do about nothing.  I put the  fault at Biowares feet that was moment were trying to all big  with a deep conversation bites  you in the ass. 

..On the Wrex -  Why do people think he is some teddy better.... He tells  Uvenk  more or Less - Get in line out I'll get you in line and drag  your sorry ass my way. Matter of fact Wrex is MORE bad ass in 2 because  know he as some real power and wiping the Krogan into shape.   Name  someone else that  could do that and do it openly? hmmmm. 

Garrus was always a big of a lose cannon  and he was always frustated with C-Sec that   was and still is the biggest issue between he and his father.  Matter of fact  I was not shocked that he left C-Sec  Garrus was never by the books like most Turians... he was the opposite.   His team got killed  and  that would  affect ANYONE adverisely that is not something  you just get over. He   picked, he talked there families he feels responsible  as he should feel - its the mark a good leader.    

"Its their job to put thier  lives in danger -  Its your responsibilty to make sure they come back alive."    

[wright1978]

Tali's development definitely seemed in character. Me2 explored her 'geth hatred' further by showing the likely source of it, a driven but distant father.

Equally Garrus. Maybe people are annoyed that if they paragoned him in ME1 he still went off to be a vigilante. Personally i liked the fact Shep could influence him but only if Shep is around to do the influencing.

Liara, there is a bit of a more of a shift. However given we get to know her mother in ME1 i didn't find the potential for her to go in a different direction that surprising.

Virmire survivor. Well we barely get to see them so i don't think it is possible to judge how they've changed. Plus the whole Horizon meet seemed woefully written and executed. I'll leave judgement till i see them in ME3.

[nitefyre410]

Liara was not off IMO too much either she went through hell and high water to get shepards body back and then the man that turns out could be her love interest was captured by the Shadow Broker and she went after him. Also about the Asari Commando line - that guy owed her money a from the sounds of large sum of money. For the line of work she is in debt is not taken lightly. She basically told that guy "Better have my money or else." She has been working in underbelly of Illuim hunting down something its a myth... yeah she had to toughen up some.

VS - lets really look at this - you were in a relationship - you died two years ago, they grieved, buried you and moved on. Two years later you pop back up working for a very, very Shady group and people just don't come back from the dead(This is not X-men here). So the reaction is understandable plus they just survived a Collector attack - emotions are running high. Even still they could not go with at the drop of dime they are still a Alliance Military Officer and that would have been going AWOL and more. If anything I'm expecting VS to be more vocally and confident in ME 3.

[Dean_the_Young]

I disagree about Tali: I found that ME2 toned down her views on the Geth. In ME1 she was an utterly unapologetic anti-Geth person, and just about any counter-argument from Shepard on the matter was met head on.

In ME2, however, she shifts to a moderate. The Geth become more or less irrelevant to her, and she's tri-angulated to be the sympathetic middle-girl in the unlikable Admiralty Board. The only time her ME1 Geth-hatred pops up is the loyalty conflict with Legion... which is at an incredibly emotional/stressful point in her life. The hatred she had for the Geth is pretty much shifted to Cerberus, and the Geth themselves become an afterthought.

Of course, that's the pity of the Geth in ME2 in general. They were a major afterthought.

[onelifecrisis]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I disagree about Tali: I found that ME2 toned down her views on the Geth. In ME1 she was an utterly unapologetic anti-Geth person, and just about any counter-argument from Shepard on the matter was met head on.

In ME2, however, she shifts to a moderate. The Geth become more or less irrelevant to her, and she's tri-angulated to be the sympathetic middle-girl in the unlikable Admiralty Board. The only time her ME1 Geth-hatred pops up is the loyalty conflict with Legion... which is at an incredibly emotional/stressful point in her life. The hatred she had for the Geth is pretty much shifted to Cerberus, and the Geth themselves become an afterthought.

Of course, that's the pity of the Geth in ME2 in general. They were a major afterthought.

Good to know it wasn't just my imagination. I couldn't help noticing when talking to the Admirals at her trial that she wasn't chanting "war! war! war! death to the geth!" and so on.

[CptData]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Liara was not off IMO too much either she went through hell and high water to get shepards body back and then the man that turns out could be her love interest was captured by the Shadow Broker and she went after him. Also about the Asari Commando line - that guy owed her money a from the sounds of large sum of money. For the line of work she is in debt is not taken lightly. She basically told that guy "Better have my money or else." She has been working in underbelly of Illuim hunting down something its a myth... yeah she had to toughen up some.

The thing is: I never cared about Liara that much. A friend? Yes. A good friend? Dunno. She's okay to have around, but my Shepard was never a huge Asari fan. So Liara's character change works fine for those who have her as LI, no doubt, but it don't work for those guys who have Kaidan or Ashley or no one as LI in ME1.

I mean all the Shadowbroker stuff comes quite out of nowhere - and that's a problem in my eyes. It seems as if Liara got forced into that position by BW because any other character of ME seems to take a huge step to become legends by themselves: the VS becomes a Spectre, Tali will most likely become a bridge between Geth and Quarians, Wrex is a leader of his people - and Garrus tried to have his own squad. Okay, Garrus isn't a real legend right now, but still, he tried.
And Liara? Without that Shadowbroker arc she would stay just a "normal archeologist". Biotics are common in Asari society, so she's not that special. So the writers decided to make her the new Shadowbroker ... and never took time to explain why.

I'd like to see that explanation to understand Liara - and to get connected to her as a character.

VS - lets really look at this - you were in a relationship - you died two years ago, they grieved, buried you and moved on. Two years later you pop back up working for a very, very Shady group and people just don't come back from the dead(This is not X-men here). So the reaction is understandable plus they just survived a Collector attack - emotions are running high. Even still they could not go with at the drop of dime they are still a Alliance Military Officer and that would have been going AWOL and more. If anything I'm expecting VS to be more vocally and confident in ME 3.

The VS will play a big role. And if my prediction is correct, the VS will be second in command this time - taking Miranda's place.
I like Miranda but I love Ashley so I have no problem with that.

[Xilizhra]

bleetman wrote...

Ashley isn't xenophobic.

I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated so frequently.

She is xenophobic, just to a relatively mild extent.

[KainrycKarr]

Ofcoursenot wrote...

Justicar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I hope that's trolling GMagnum.

It is, obviously.

ITT: BAAAAWWWW CHARACTERS AREN'T THE WAY I LIKE THEM EVEN THOUGH SO MANY OTHERS DO BAAAAAW

It's not a matter of personal preference. It's just that some of these changes are outright ridiculous.

Liara is the only one that's ridiculous. The others are completely believable, even predictable looking back at ME1.

Not to mention what you describe in your op is incredibly exaggerated with the exclusion of Liara, who I agree was excessive.

I mean c'mon, Wrex huggable?  I think that's more fan perception.

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Ashley isn't xenophobic.

I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated so frequently.

She is xenophobic, just to a relatively mild extent.

No, she is not.

Suspicion of foreign governments does not make one xenophobic.

But calling aliens "bug-eyed monsters" make one xenophobic, imo.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Ashley isn't xenophobic.

I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated so frequently.

She is xenophobic, just to a relatively mild extent.

No, she is not.

Suspicion of foreign governments does not make one xenophobic.

"I'm no fan of aliens"

[CptBomBom00]

Why was Liara's development unexpected?

[CptData]

wright1978 wrote...

Tali's development definitely seemed in character. Me2 explored her 'geth hatred' further by showing the likely source of it, a driven but distant father.

The thing is: if picking the right lines you can see Tali slowly shifting away from her Geth hatred. She won't become a friend of them, but she also understands that a war is too costly and could end the Quarians as a race.
At least that's what I see in Tali and something I can predict for ME3.

Equally Garrus. Maybe people are annoyed that if they paragoned him in ME1 he still went off to be a vigilante. Personally i liked the fact Shep could influence him but only if Shep is around to do the influencing.

Actually, I paragonized Garrus but I knew he couldn't stay in line. He's too hotheaded and doesn't think twice before doing. Garrus is a good man but does evil things if he wants a job getting done. 
His big standard is Shepard - he tries to follow Shepards steps (even the SB knows that) far too much. He makes his own squad and becomes some kind of "maverick of law" - think of a Sheriff in wild west. Dunno why Garrus never applied for the Spectres, at least he wasn't talking about that to Shepard.

Liara, there is a bit of a more of a shift. However given we get to know her mother in ME1 i didn't find the potential for her to go in a different direction that surprising.

I'll ignore Liara this time, because I already wrote what I think.

Virmire survivor. Well we barely get to see them so i don't think it is possible to judge how they've changed. Plus the whole Horizon meet seemed woefully written and executed. I'll leave judgement till i see them in ME3.

Indeed. All we have is a badly written scene and (if the VS was your LI) a mail that tries to fix broken stuff. Besides that, we don't have any idea what happened to the VS and if s/he shifted her character a lot.

[CptData]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

"I'm no fan of aliens"

Ambiguous. Aliens in Mass Effect are nations, foreign governments. She's certainly never shown any kind of bias against individual alien people.

I'm no fan of religions.

Still I like Ashley and my R/L fiancee is christian. So ... I can put Ashley's line in right context.

[nitefyre410]

CptData wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Liara was not off IMO too much either she went through hell and high water to get shepards body back and then the man that turns out could be her love interest was captured by the Shadow Broker and she went after him. Also about the Asari Commando line - that guy owed her money a from the sounds of large sum of money. For the line of work she is in debt is not taken lightly. She basically told that guy "Better have my money or else." She has been working in underbelly of Illuim hunting down something its a myth... yeah she had to toughen up some.

The thing is: I never cared about Liara that much. A friend? Yes. A good friend? Dunno. She's okay to have around, but my Shepard was never a huge Asari fan. So Liara's character change works fine for those who have her as LI, no doubt, but it don't work for those guys who have Kaidan or Ashley or no one as LI in ME1.

I mean all the Shadowbroker stuff comes quite out of nowhere - and that's a problem in my eyes. It seems as if Liara got forced into that position by BW because any other character of ME seems to take a huge step to become legends by themselves: the VS becomes a Spectre, Tali will most likely become a bridge between Geth and Quarians, Wrex is a leader of his people - and Garrus tried to have his own squad. Okay, Garrus isn't a real legend right now, but still, he tried.
And Liara? Without that Shadowbroker arc she would stay just a "normal archeologist". Biotics are common in Asari society, so she's not that special. So the writers decided to make her the new Shadowbroker ... and never took time to explain why.

I'd like to see that explanation to understand Liara - and to get connected to her as a character.

VS - lets really look at this - you were in a relationship - you died two years ago, they grieved, buried you and moved on. Two years later you pop back up working for a very, very Shady group and people just don't come back from the dead(This is not X-men here). So the reaction is understandable plus they just survived a Collector attack - emotions are running high. Even still they could not go with at the drop of dime they are still a Alliance Military Officer and that would have been going AWOL and more. If anything I'm expecting VS to be more vocally and confident in ME 3.

The VS will play a big role. And if my prediction is correct, the VS will be second in command this time - taking Miranda's place.
I like Miranda but I love Ashley so I have no problem with that.

 


I think alot of the what happened that drove  Liara to where is now happend off screen and that is huge problem that BW has in general with there story telling.. they tell you what happend instead of show you.  All for me that is where I think there is a big disconnect comes from  when it comes to character development. I was kinda able to read into what happen with Liara  because I read the summary of tie comic where she is working with Ferron to get Shepards body but not everyone is going to do that and you going to lose players and views like  that - IMO.   I did not have her a LI - really found her kinda boring in  ME 1, she is more interesting now  but Ashley was my  ME 1  LI from the start.    

I think the reason she took over was because after seeing that choas  that started to enuse after  we killed the previous shadow broker she realized  that it is a very important neutral party and  the whole situation was bigger than just her grudge. There was void  that needed to filled and she was there but like that takes some reading between the lines and implied but we never really hear about her work to hunt him down.    


I won't mind Ashley as my second in command either that just allow me to free Miranda up to work with Mordin more and  do other things as far is  dealing with TIM and Cereberus  

[FlyinElk212]

I didn't think any of the character development from ME1 -> ME2 was too drastic. The point at which development becomes too drastic is when the character in question becomes unrecognizable due to said development.

Even if there are inklings of their old personality still there, that doesn't make the character development bad--it simply means the character has changed a lot. At no point did I feel that the ME1 squad were completely different people in ME2. They were simply in new, different situations, after a series of events over two years heavily influenced each character.

We shouldn't be worried about keeping DEVELOPMENT in check-- we should be worried about keeping the CHARACTER of each squadmate in check. Development is a huge plus for characters--it makes them real, as they react and change to the world and its events.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 02 novembre 2011 - 02:09 .

[Cpt-Brit]

CptData wrote... The VS will play a big role. And if my prediction is correct, the VS will be second in command this time - taking Miranda's place.
I like Miranda but I love Ashley so I have no problem with that.

I really REALLY hope that it isn't as clear cut as this... If I have to choose between a Soldier/Poet and Ruthless yet Sexy Biotic... Buh Bye Ashley, You had your chance on Horizen...

If I can have both of course i'll be happy

[onelifecrisis]

CptData wrote...

The VS will play a big role. And if my prediction is correct, the VS will be second in command this time - taking Miranda's place.

Miranda was never my Shepard's second in command!