223 réponses à ce sujet

[Ofcoursenot]

Nozybidaj wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Ofcoursenot wrote...

It's not a matter of personal preference. It's just that some of these changes are outright ridiculous.

In your opinion not in mine.

Anyone that doesn't think Liara becoming the SB was outright ridiculous is either trolling or being argumentative for the sake of arguing about something.  I can't think of a more outright ridiculous character development (even being gracious I just have to laugh at calling that character development) in any form of media I've seen over my 35 years.  What's next Miranda for Mom of the Year?  Jacob being cool?  Male Shep being gay?  C'mon now.....

Actually, Miranda cannot be Mom of the year, if memory serves. I think the SB info that you can find reveals she is infertile. or I may have been hallucinating. with me you never really know.

Also, this thread was blown uber mega super out of proportion.

[The Spamming Troll]

shep82 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
liara being the shadow broker would be like a human 12 year old being the shadow broker. i mean i love liara and all, but shes a dumb little kid, not a LORD. but whatever, i dont see her age in the game, prolly just her boobs, which i bet got bigger in ME3 too speaking of changes.

Really? That's the best analogy you could come up with?

His last name is troll what do you expect?

im extrememly impressed with your knowledge of liaras age! that is very very very important to argue about.

atleast the last part of my name isnt a number, ROBOT!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[The Spamming Troll]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

liara being the shadow broker would be like a human 12 year old being the shadow broker. i mean i love liara and all, but shes a dumb little kid, not a LORD. but whatever, i dont see her age in the game, prolly just her boobs, which i bet got bigger in ME3 too speaking of changes.

but the thing is, people dont drastically change.

Want to bet? I'm a psychology student. I've seen and studied 14 year old kids suddenly act like their 60 barely after 6 months after the death of a loved one, especially if they were present when it happened. In the face of trauma, in the face of life changing events, people often change 'drastically'. I think watching your lover/friend/leader get spaced is enough to invoke that.

Age is NOTHING in the face of maturity and sometimes, life forces us to mature quickly.

oh snap, your a student!!!

anyways like i said  later in my rant....."i suppose you could always say 'but their buddy shepard died.'" im not saying you cant write a story where a character doesnt change, especially when that character dies and become zombified. but then again, we cant even do much oft that as is!

"garrus, is that you?"
"hey shepard, just stayin sharp, whats new?"

whatever ME3 features modable weapons.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:45 .

[Han Shot First]

Indeed. Liara's development from naive archeologist to intel broker is already a hard one, but still possible. From intel broker to hard-boiled Shadowbroker? Nah. Doesn't fit. It doesn't work for me, not at all.
But I accepted it - Liara seems to have a huge fanbase and half of BW-devs seems to be Liara fans as well. That's why we have "Lair of the Shadowbroker" but no "The Virmire Survivor" DLC

Just out of curiosity, why did you find Liara's progression from naive archaeologist to intel broker more plausible than her transition from intel broker to Shadowbroker?

The reason why I ask is that the Shadowbroker is an intel broker. The Shadowbroker just happens to be the most powerful and influential intel broker in the galaxy. From ME1 to ME2 Liara has changed careers, while she hasn't from ME2 to LotSB. In LotSB she's just moved up to the most elite level of her ME2 career path.

Biotics are common in Asari society, so she's not that special. So the writers decided to make her the new Shadowbroker ... and never took time to explain why.

Perhaps Benezia was an intel broker?

That might explain Liara's career shift as well as Benezia's pre-indoctrination connection to Saren.  Mom dies, and following Shepard's death Liara accesses Benezia's files and picks up the pieces of her organization.

Or at least that is the route I'd go if I had to come up with a backstory to explain Liara's sudden shift in careers.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 03 novembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[Belisarius09]

Bcuz wrote...

VS, Imagine if you were black, or any minority really, and that you had a close or boy/girl friend, and that the two of you worked towards civil rights and equality. Now imagine that you died, and two years later your close/boy/girl friend found out that you were not dead, and are now working with the Klu Klux Klan. Yeah, there'd be some strong emotions there.

^ this is the single greatest analogy I have ever read on these forums.  A applaud you for making a strong point.

[LilyasAvalon]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

liara being the shadow broker would be like a human 12 year old being the shadow broker. i mean i love liara and all, but shes a dumb little kid, not a LORD. but whatever, i dont see her age in the game, prolly just her boobs, which i bet got bigger in ME3 too speaking of changes.

but the thing is, people dont drastically change.

Want to bet? I'm a psychology student. I've seen and studied 14 year old kids suddenly act like their 60 barely after 6 months after the death of a loved one, especially if they were present when it happened. In the face of trauma, in the face of life changing events, people often change 'drastically'. I think watching your lover/friend/leader get spaced is enough to invoke that.

Age is NOTHING in the face of maturity and sometimes, life forces us to mature quickly.

oh snap, your a student!!!

anyways like i said  later in my rant....."i suppose you could always say 'but their buddy shepard died.'" im not saying you cant write a story where a character doesnt change, especially when that character dies and become zombified. but then again, we cant even do much oft that as is!

"garrus, is that you?"
"hey shepard, just stayin sharp, whats new?"

whatever ME3 features modable weapons.

It's more than you probably are, judging by your lack of english skills and idiotic comebacks.

And what did you expect from Garrus? He had been awake and defending himself, all alone, for at least over 24 hours, was running on stims, STILL defending himself from THREE GROUPS of mercs, still traumtised over the EXTREMELY recent death of his entire squad and trying to make the best of a bad situation. It wasn't as if he had the energy or time to do the whole 'Shepard, you're alive!?' thing that Tali or Kaidan/Ashley did.

[Sharn01]

Arcian wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

GMagnum wrote...

ppl jus dont like jacob cuz hes black

People do not like Jacob because he is a poorly written character.

People do not like Jacob because he's the only sane man in a crew full of crazies.

I actually think a lot of the Jacob hate comes from femShep players like myself, the game attempted to force his romance down your throat whether you where interested or not, before you knew anything about the guy.  I went to talk to him to give him a chance because he had seemed a decent guy prior to getting the Normandy and was so annoyed with the dialogue I never spoke to him again except for mandatory stuff and the loyalty mission/ship upgrade.

For non femShep's he can be a little off putting, prior to getting the Normandy he is an extremely open character who seems genuinely interested in getting to know you and wanting to make sure you trust him, then does a complete 180 once on the Normandy, and Miranda does the exact opposite of Jacob.  Jacob also has a tendency to insult other crew members, and I still cant figure out why he was there giving his opinion to begin with.

[Canipa09]

I think the whole point of it was to show that everyone changed during the 2 years.

[CptData]

Han Shot First wrote...

Indeed. Liara's development from naive archeologist to intel broker is already a hard one, but still possible. From intel broker to hard-boiled Shadowbroker? Nah. Doesn't fit. It doesn't work for me, not at all.
But I accepted it - Liara seems to have a huge fanbase and half of BW-devs seems to be Liara fans as well. That's why we have "Lair of the Shadowbroker" but no "The Virmire Survivor" DLC

Just out of curiosity, why did you find Liara's progression from naive archaeologist to intel broker more plausible than her transition from intel broker to Shadowbroker?

More than one reason:

- you need to read from "archeologist to Shadowbroker"

- and even if you don't read it like that - if it's that easy to a) find out where SB has its lair and become the SB once you dispatched it, why did the yahg succeed as the SB for 60 years? I mean Liara is not dumb, but she's also not the most intelligent person. She is, as I said, a tad naive, that alone disqualifies her as a intel broker. To be a good intel broker you already need to have some balls (so to speak). To be the SB you need more than that.

The reason why I ask is that the Shadowbroker is an intel broker. The Shadowbroker just happens to be the most powerful and influential intel broker in the galaxy. From ME1 to ME2 Liara has changed careers, while she hasn't from ME2 to LotSB. In LotSB she's just moved up to the most elite level of her ME2 career path.

Lets say I'm a boss of a small corp division. Do you think I can run the entire business? Nope.

Being the SB means you need to be able to pull strings, you need to have an overview over millions of incoming datasets, sort them and use them. It's already quite implausible ONE man / woman can do that ... even not if s/he is experienced in that business. Liara is not experienced as a quite young intel broker and she never displayed more capabilities (multitasking) than any other character. So basically, Shepard could be the SB as well ...

Biotics are common in Asari society, so she's not that special. So the writers decided to make her the new Shadowbroker ... and never took time to explain why.

Perhaps Benezia was an intel broker?

I can't even remember if that's in the lore, but just in case it was ...

That might explain Liara's career shift as well as Benezia's pre-indoctrination connection to Saren.  Mom dies, and following Shepard's death Liara accesses Benezia's files and picks up the pieces of her organization.

Or at least that is the route I'd go if I had to come up with a backstory to explain Liara's sudden shift in careers.

... it still doesn't fully explain why Liara changed her career. I mean, she's intelligent, but she's still a naive young woman (by Asari standards). Not a good base for being an intel broker, as I said before.

[Asari_Party]

CptData wrote...

... it still doesn't fully explain why Liara changed her career. I mean, she's intelligent, but she's still a naive young woman (by Asari standards). Not a good base for being an intel broker, as I said before.

When, exactly, was Liara naive?

[CptData]

Roxy12 wrote...

CptData wrote...

... it still doesn't fully explain why Liara changed her career. I mean, she's intelligent, but she's still a naive young woman (by Asari standards). Not a good base for being an intel broker, as I said before.

When, exactly, was Liara naive?

Most parts of ME1.

Okay, I need to be fair - she appears to be naive to me. That's why she doesn't fit into the role of the SB - for me.
Liara fans see her more mature than she is. I'm simply not a big fan of her and don't like all the extra stuff.

So maybe I'm a bit unfair to Liara, my apology here. Still, her character shift is the least believeable while Garrus' and Tali's evolved characters seem okay for me. Ex-cop going rogue - works. Teenage!Quarian maturing a lot within two years - works. Archeologist becoming an intel broker? Doesn't work that well. It may work with a timespan of 10 years, but not with just 2 years.

Except ME has the hire&fire mentality of USA and therefore, initial profession doesn't count.

[SkittlesKat96]

How is Tali being anti-Geth a bad thing?

Idungeddit. At all.

I'm pretty sure all the Quarians are angry at the Geth and have the right to be angry at them and its realistic that they are angry at them.

Also you have to remember that Tali has become a skilled soldier and fighter and she is very involved with higher up Quarian government and military...I assume in ME 3 if she isn't exiled she'll be eager to play a big role in fighting/coming to a conclusion with the Geth

The other things you said I kind of agree with but think you may be nitpicking a bit.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[Barquiel]

CptData wrote...

- and even if you don't read it like that - if it's that easy to a) find out where SB has its lair and become the SB once you dispatched it, why did the yahg succeed as the SB for 60 years? I mean Liara is not dumb, but she's also not the most intelligent person. She is, as I said, a tad naive, that alone disqualifies her as a intel broker. To be a good intel broker you already need to have some balls (so to speak). To be the SB you need more than that.

She lacks experience dealing with people in ME1. That doesn't make her naive. Can you give me an example of Liara acting naive or immature? I can't think of one. And you don't "need to have some balls" to be the SB. To quote Liara...
"With the Shadow Broker resources, it's about organizing, cataloguing."

The yahg was able to take over as the Shadow Broker (he wasn't an information broker). Liara has experience as an information broker and she has some help from an experienced SB agent (Feron). I really don't see a problem with this.

[Aeowyn]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I think Garrus would be the best XO. Alas, he'll probably be stuck with the calibrations job again.

Garrus would hate being the XO. There's a lot of administration that goes into that role, and Garrus is more of a "out on the field" - man. Miranda was an excellent XO.

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Garrus: if Saleon attempted for arrest, goes to C-Sec again. If Saleon killed, applies for Spectre reinstatement,

Was there any change in ME2? Nope, not even a single dialogue. What was the point of it in the first place?

Actually, there are some changes in the dialogues. They are minor, but they are there. He has a different dialogue for C-Sec, Spectre or neutral in the first conversation you have with him after you recruit him. He also has different dialogue during this LM depending on which route you took with him in ME1.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:32 .

[knightnblu]

GMagnum wrote...

ppl jus dont like jacob cuz hes black

Ah yes, race cards. Everybody has'em it would seem. 

[LilyasAvalon]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

On a side note with Liara, has anyone BOTHERED to read Redemption?

I did.

The comic is terrible and it only made things worse.

I would have found her change easier to believe if I didn't read it.

Not everyone can apperciate it I suppose. I read it after ME2, and I thought it was perfectly believable, given how... ahem... obsessed she is with Commander Shepard.

[Aeowyn]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Was there any change in ME2? Nope, not even a single dialogue. What was the point of it in the first place?

Actually, there are some changes in the dialogues. They are minor, but they are there. He has a different dialogue for C-Sec, Spectre or neutral in the first conversation you have with him after you recruit him. He also has different dialogue during this LM depending on which route you took with him in ME1.

I don't remember much from the conversation when you first meet him, but I did get the exact same dialogues during his loyalty mission.

If you renegade him in ME1, choose the "Are you sure about this" dialogue when you're chasing Harkin.

[LilyasAvalon]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Not everyone can apperciate it I suppose. I read it after ME2, and I thought it was perfectly believable, given how... ahem... obsessed she is with Commander Shepard.

Tell me, what did you think about the part where Liara left Feron behind for no reason?

You mean the part where she had to leave him behind to save Shepard's remains from ending up in Collector hands? I hardly think that counts as 'no reason'. And I thought it fit in with the story, Shepard far outweighs Feron, especially since the collectors/reapers want Shepard, not Feron.

[LilyasAvalon]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Was there any change in ME2? Nope, not even a single dialogue. What was the point of it in the first place?

Actually, there are some changes in the dialogues. They are minor, but they are there. He has a different dialogue for C-Sec, Spectre or neutral in the first conversation you have with him after you recruit him. He also has different dialogue during this LM depending on which route you took with him in ME1.

I don't remember much from the conversation when you first meet him, but I did get the exact same dialogues during his loyalty mission.

If you let him blast Dr. Hart's brain but deny him killng Harkin, he tells you 'Killing is the soltution, you taught me that' or something along those lines.