22 réponses à ce sujet

[Jafroboy]

Tactially looking at it, there is no reason to let the council die, the "Hold resources back to fight Soverign" strategy makes about as much sense as making Jar Jar binks a galactic senator.

Lets consider this, you have two options, launch a surprise attack, saving your allies most powerful ship and wiping out the geth fleet. Or jump through, let the geth see you are there, allow them time to reorganize to meet you, let them destroy your most powerful ally, so they can no longer help you, THEN attack them?

I mean, its not like those geth ships are just going to go away, they're still going to attack you whilst you're trying to fight soverign, ever heard of "Divide and conqueor? 

So the only reason for not saving the council is if you hate them SOOOOO much that you're willing to throw away thousands of lives just for petty revenge, or if you have some retarded idea that letting them die will make humanity stronger, thinking that the aliens would just let humanity take over, which anyone with an IQ in triple figures could tell you was ridiculous, and is proven incorrect in ME2, when Anderson says "Anything I try to do, the other councillers just outvote me". I mean, obviously the aliens arnt going to let these smaller, weaker, newer guys come an just take charge.

So please, enlighten me, what would posess you to let your allies die, in the midst of the galaxy's most pivotal battle ever?

[mcsupersport]

It is only that way in game, but the way it was set up was......

1) Bring forces in and lose some to save the Council and a Battleship, and at the end hope you have enough forces left to still defeat the real issue of Sovereign.

2) Keep your forces back until you can actually get to the real issue and launch an attack with the most ships at your disposal on a Dreadnaught which is trying to end all life if it isn't defeated.

So is saving the Council and one ship worth the risk of not being able to defeat your true enemy. That is how it is set up in game BEFORE you make the decision.

In practice, and probably real life if it happens, would be always take the first just for the chance of killing the Geth so they don't hit your backside and wipe you out. But that isn't the question asked by the game.

[Jafroboy]

But surely, it IS the question asked by the game, because that is what happens in the game, I mean you already know there is a geth fleet with soverign when you make the decision, so you would have to take them attacking you from behind whilst you fight soverign, into account when you make your decision wouldnt you?

[mcsupersport]

The way the scene is portrayed if you ignore the Destiny is the fight is "over there" and thus able to be ignored. I don't say I agree with it, but that is how the question is posed and the Renegade/neutral ending shows it.

[Jafroboy]

Yes, the humans fly past the council and attack Sovriegn, but the geth are still there, which means either the rest of the council fleet has to fight them, or the humans have to set some ships as a rearguard - which will be much less effective than a surprise attack with the entire fleet - to hold them off while the rest attack Sovreign.

Either way this equals less ships attacking Sovreign, less chance of saving the galaxy, more people dying, and no tactical sense.

The geth have to be fought, so why would you do it on your own, at the same time as fighting Sovreign, instead of a surprise attack with allies?

I guess if the council fleet takes care of the geth, you could add a reason "Because I hate all aliens, and want as many of them to die as possible" but seeing as that means they wont be helping you against Sovreign, more humans will probably also die.

So the only reason I can see is "Because I'm a dick"

[mcsupersport]

This is a game, and as such, it doesn't always work the way real life does. In the game you can ignore the ENTIRE Geth fleet as simply not there. Stupid, I know, but that is the way the game is set up. In game, you can ignore the fleet and attack the main bad guy, or go save a ship and then attack the bad guy and hope you have enough ships to defeat it. Stupid of the devs to set it up this way, rather than having the Alliance use the destruction of the Destiny to distract the Geth and wipe them out, rather than taking them on head on. Bad writing, and silly when you think about leaving the entire Geth fleet able to kick you in the butt.

But playing by game rules, you have a choice to save the council or throw your ENTIRE fleet against Sovereign.

[capn233]

Can of worms.

There is a dick-ish option which is "Let them die." The neutral option is "Concentrate on Sovereign." Similar in outcome, different in motivation.

If you focus on the difference between the paragon and neutral choice I prefer the idea that you would have to fight the Geth anyway so might as well move in. mcsupersport has really already summarized the whole thing though.

This topic has been endlessly debated though.

[Destroydacre]

Saving the Destiny Ascension does nothing with the battle against Sovereign as it does not assist the 5th fleet in the fight after it is saved. Let the remaining Turian fleet engage the Geth while the human fleet attacks Sovereign.

As for the surprise attack, I'm guessing the Geth ships have sensors so as soon as the human fleet arrives via the mass relay they know that they're there. So there's really no surprise element at all. If the humans don't attack them they continue to attack the Destiny Ascension and if the humans do intervene they attack the human cruisers.

In the end it's a trivial matter as regardless of the choice you make the humans lose 8 cruisers. So you can argue strategy and logic all you want, but the same 8 cruisers are lost with either choice. It would have been cool if bioware had changed up that bit, but that was too much to handle I guess. So the only result that you control is the very choice they gave you in game. Save the Ascension or let it get destroyed.

Modifié par Destroydacre, 02 novembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[Yezdigerd]

The game tried it's best to paint the council as jerking you around. Letting them die is a feel good moment for people who hate their boss or teacher.

[Ophir147]

quit metagaming.

Both of them are the right choice, because Schrodinger's Cat yadda yadda. The moral issue isn't there, as long as you stop metagaming and assuming that Shepard knows everything you do.

It's a nice, powerful decision that gives Shepard a lot of influence in shaping Galactic politics; does he want to keep being pushed around by the council and backroom politics until humanity gains the respect they deserve? Or does he want to create a more clean slate, progressive council that will be more proactive at the risk of pissing off the council races?

None of these choices have had any significant weight (aside from being reinstated into the Spectres, which was mostly a "take this and gtfo" prize) so far aside from the Ascension being destroyed, which was in ME1. Perhaps we can debate the morality a bit more if BW intends to expand on the consequences in ME3.

[Rolenka]

I took it to mean that tactically, it was risky to move to that part of the battlefield at that time. It wasn't explained in detail, but perhaps they stood a better chance by waiting for reinforcements before engaging in earnest. Would you rather send ten groups of ten, one at a time, or one hundred ships all at once?

Or perhaps the Alliance fleet was still out of range of Sovereign's main weapons, and it made more sense to thin the geth before going in for the kill. Maybe there was a thick cloud of Geth between the Alliance and the council, and trying to rush through it without first destroying it was suicide.

There could be any number of reasons.

var fctb_tool=null;
function FCTB_Init_fdfed5d9bba5477f9525323855d15b0b(t)
{
fctb_tool=t;
start(fctb_tool);
}
FCTB_Init_fdfed5d9bba5477f9525323855d15b0b(document['FCTB_Init_8040e64fb34148f3a6704361af73830d']); delete document['FCTB_Init_8040e64fb34148f3a6704361af73830d']

[Jafroboy]

Well if it's already been debated many times, no sense going over it again, I'll just leave with - One option results in 8 dead alliance cruisers, another with 8 dead alliance cruisers, a dead council and dreadnaught, and many more dead council fleet ships.

Its clear which is the better option.

[Gallimatia]

It is clear which option has the better outcome. That does not mean it was the better option for Shepard at the time. You will win almost 50 % of the time if you go to a roulette table and bet on black. If you do win that doesn't mean the bet you made was good. It was a bad bet that produced a desirable and advantageous result.

Judging decisions based on consequences after the fact is bizarre enough in real life let alone in a game where they are not bound by any laws and subject to Bioware's whims.

[capn233]

It is almost the same thing as using the rationale as the bulk of what you are evaluated rather than simply the result.

I never didn't save the Council. It was not possible for me to metagame until after that first time

I do agree that perhaps the numbers of the ships lost should have been different.

Like I said above, since I did not think the Alliance fleet would be able to destroy Sovereign quickly, and the Geth's job was to cover Sovereign, I figured you would have to fight them anyway and so you should move in. Without knowing just how bad the Citadel fleet was doing it would be impossible to know if they could really keep the Geth busy while the 5th concentrated on Sovereign.

[f4k3s4nt4]

Well I just finished my first playthrough yesterday without spoiling myself the story, and I decided to let the Council die. Why?

1) I saw stopping Sovereign from taking control of the Citadel as a priority over saving the Council.

2) There was no time estimate as to how long saving the Ascension would take, so I didn't think there was time to do both.

3) Wasting reinforcements is a bad idea, since they are needed to attack Sovereign. Since the Ascension `s BFG is not operational, it seemed useless to save it.

4) The Council also crossed my mind. Even if saved, I felt that they would continue to ignore the Reaper`s existence, believing that Sovereign was a geth construct.

However, I expected a new council of all races to be elected, not a human takeover, which honestly seems like a stupid idea. Had I known that in advance, I would've probably saved the Council. Humanity deserves a seat on the Council, but to take over it entirely is absurd.

[Asch Lavigne]

f4k3s4nt4 wrote...

Well I just finished my first playthrough yesterday without spoiling myself the story, and I decided to let the Council die. Why?

1) I saw stopping Sovereign from taking control of the Citadel as a priority over saving the Council.

2) There was no time estimate as to how long saving the Ascension would take, so I didn't think there was time to do both.

3) Wasting reinforcements is a bad idea, since they are needed to attack Sovereign. Since the Ascension `s BFG is not operational, it seemed useless to save it.

Agree with these points.

[lv12medic]

Saying not saving the council is 100% stupid requires Shepard to have significantly more situational awareness of the space battle going on around the citadel then ever presented in game. As far as I'm concerned the only information my Shepard had to go on was Soveriegn is attempting to get into the Citadel to bring in the Reaper fleet and the Geth had the Ascension cornered and was in trouble. Shepard has no other information to make a tactical decision. So I counter propose that the only logical choice is the neutral one. I explicitly heard my Shepard say that Sovereign was the primary target, it was then Admrial Hackett who decided the best course of action was to have the Alliance ships hold their fire, fly right by the Ascension without so much as a pot shot at the Geth and pursue Sovereign on their own.

Modifié par lv12medic, 10 novembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[capn233]

I counter counter propose that the actual situation and question that Joker poses to Shepard is whether or not to move in immediately and assist the Citadel fleet to cover Ascension, or sit on their hands near the relay until the Citadel is open. "Come in now to save the Destiny Ascension or hold back?"

I agree that Shepard doesn't really have all of the information to actually make what would be a perfectly informed decision. You don't know how many ships you might lose to save the Ascension, you don't know how long until you get the arms open, you don't know how much firepower you need to take out Sovi, you don't know really know the disposition of the Geth and Citadel fleets as a whole as they relate to assistance and hindrance in defeating Sovi.

Most of us that like the save the council option figure if you move in as soon as possible you can assist taking out the Geth which will free Citadel ships to help fire on Sovi. No the Ascension is not included in this, they are out of the fight. But there are plenty of Turian ships left.

If you were to think about it in RTS terms, consider if you had 5 marines against 5 zealots near a nexus that you wanted to take out. You also have reinforcements coming in the way of a marauder and 5 more marines. Do you use the reinforcements to snipe the nexus and hope that the marines last long enough that the zealots don't start on the other ones or reinforcements arrive, or do you kill off the zealots first and use the entire remaining group to focus the nexus afterwards? What if they had used force field to block you from attacking the nexus but you can still support the original marines?*

*This probably isn't understandable unless you play SC2... and the numbers are somewhat arbitrary (but would illustrate the point unless you used fancy marine micro with the first batch...)

Modifié par capn233, 10 novembre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Yezdigerd]

Hindsight is metagaming and irrelevant for an actual decision.
When I made the choice I never thought helping the council risked something. With Vigil's override in place I saw no immediate threat of the reaper taking control and I never thought the alliance 5th fleet had anything but a fraction of the citadel fleets firepower so taking out Sovy required a team a team effort, were the human fleet would be straw that broke Sovereigns back.
So I interpreted the choice of holding back waiting on the DA:s destruction as the standard renegade dickmove, before you joined forces and took down Sovereign.

[FlyingSquirrel]

The first time I played ME1, I picked the neutral option and thought it would probably allow me to still save the Council, or at least try to do so - when I saw Joker shut off the comm and the mix of paragon and renegade points pop up, I reloaded and went with the "save the council" option. I think I also had no idea what to expect (I was still relatively new to gaming and had never played a Bioware RPG before). So I may have partly thought that if I picked the "wrong" option, it would show the Reapers killing everybody and I would lose the game.

I mostly play Paragons, so when I do choose not to save the Council, it's only with the neutral dialogue option, based on the idea that Shepard figures it's too risky to commit forces to saving the Council as long as Sovereign is still there trying to gain control of the Citadel. Even my couple of Renegon-ish characters are pretty alien-friendly, so I've never actually used the "let the Council die" dialogue choice.

[Alex_SM]

First time I played ME1 I was extremely involved with the game, I had been playing for hours when I got to that point, and decided to let the council die. Why? Because I was thinking in tactical "ingame" terms.

Citadel fleet is supposed to be in extreme inferiority, and the battle with the Geth fleet is totally irrelevant. There's just one important enemy: Sovereing. So I decided to ignore everything, let the Citadel fleet just "entertain" the Geth as long as they could, and launch ALL my ships against Sovereign. Knowing that defeating Sovereing implies wining the battle.

A few seconds after I thought "Oh, come on... it's just a game, Bioware would never make the player loose by making a bad pick".

[Xannerz]

f4k3s4nt4 wrote...

Well I just finished my first playthrough yesterday without spoiling myself the story, and I decided to let the Council die. Why?

1) I saw stopping Sovereign from taking control of the Citadel as a priority over saving the Council.

2) There was no time estimate as to how long saving the Ascension would take, so I didn't think there was time to do both.

3) Wasting reinforcements is a bad idea, since they are needed to attack Sovereign. Since the Ascension `s BFG is not operational, it seemed useless to save it.

4) The Council also crossed my mind. Even if saved, I felt that they would continue to ignore the Reaper`s existence, believing that Sovereign was a geth construct.

However, I expected a new council of all races to be elected, not a human takeover, which honestly seems like a stupid idea. Had I known that in advance, I would've probably saved the Council. Humanity deserves a seat on the Council, but to take over it entirely is absurd.

Pretty much all of that. ^

At the time, it made more sense to me. It's not that I wanted the Council to die. They annoy me to pieces but I don't hate them enough to want to kill them. I didn't know anything about the results when I first played, too. Just going through the moments. Either way, I don't think I'll be going back to ME1 to change that decision. *shrug*