135 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

What's up with them?

Or rather, the lack of them?

We know there aren't many, and the relative balance of the Awakening crew (which even then is only at 1/3 and not the 1/2 that actual demographics would indicate) is kind of a fluke. Duncan recruits four Wardens that we know of: all male, except for the PC, who has a theoretical 50/50 chance. Alistair will tell a female PC upon meeting that there have never been many female Wardens; when he's telling you about his past with the Wardens, a female PC can ask him if there were any women and he'll say no. Janeka's whole crew is male, and if the only way to see a female Warden with Stroud/Alistair is to Warden Beth. Clearly there's a numbers disparity.

There's some reason to suppose this is just normal cultural sexism in action. Alistiar will tell an elven Warden that there was only one elf in his crew as well, so it's clear Wardens aren't immune to prejudice, and despite the relative egalitarianism of Ferelden, we know Antivan women don't fight, Orlesian and dwarven women had to martyr themselves relatively recently to earn the right, and even a female Cousland is "as good as any man" rather than "better than any other man" like her male counterpart. So it's likely there are fewer female fighters in Thedas in general then males, and thus a smaller recruitment pool.

But it's also possible that it's not, which leads me to my real question: is it possible to make a Warden into a broodmother? I sort of suspect not, since if nothing else, it seems like the Architect would have done that to Utha rather than try to wake the Mother if the option were available, and the Wardens probably wouldn't recruit women at all if they thought that letting a woman undertake the Calling could bolster enemy numbers. But the DA:O codex on broodmothers suggests that Wardens have only very recently learned that broodmothers even exist, so perhaps it's never been a concern before. If Wardens aren't immune, or if the Wardens haven't yet learned enough about broodmothers to know if they're immune or not, it seems like something they should definitely be addressing.

[Inujade]

Personally I don't think female warden's can become broodmothers...I sort of tie it into the infertility thing. Not to mention they have a resistance to the taint, and the taint is what transforms the women.

Also, even if it were physically possible, I have a feeling a darkspawn wouldn't try. They sense the taint in Wardens, and after awhile they don't even notice the difference between a Warden and a darkspawn. So I figure they'd see a lady warden and not even think to use it the way they do human/elven/dwarven women. Probably they wouldn't even see it as female, as I think all darkspawn except the broodmothers are male.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

[Urzon]

Long long ago,

In a thread far far into the forum,

There was a quote about this subject,

Which i'm to lazy to look up.

Short answer is no, if i remember right. Something to do with broodmothers being ghouls, and the process involved when the darkspawn "turn" the females. Since the female wardens already have the Taint, i'd imagine they are immune to broodmotherhood.

[Gervaise]

May be the Wardens avoid recruiting females because of the infertility thing. The more women you make into Wardens, the less there are out there able to conceive future recruits. Since the type of woman likely to make a good warden is also the type of woman you would want to be mothering potential warden babies, it would just seem a waste in between Blights. That may be why the female Wardens are often mages because rendering them infertile might be seen as a bonus.

I could never really see the point in recruiting Wardens between Blights either since the Darkspawn generally stay underground at these times (except in the Anderfels) and they aren't difficult to find if you go there, so the Warden radar is hardly needed. With the high failure rate at the joining it seemed a terrible waste of good fighters - better to enrol them in the Order but only go through with the joining if they should fall sick from the taint or a Blight occurs. The stupid thing is that the game mechanics make it appear that there is less risk of contracting the taint whilst fighting darkspawn than there is of dying from the joining.

[Bayz]

Are they really barren? Where is it stated other than Alistair saying "You can has no children but I can has them lolz"?

If Gaider said anything about it is ok, just asking 'coz I don't really know...

[Gervaise]

The taint doesn't make you totally infertile but it does greatly reduce the chances of conceiving. Thus two grey wardens would have almost nil chance of having a child, whilst having one or other parent as a grey warden would make conception difficult. Alistair also expresses reservations because he wonders what effect the taint would have on the actual baby. According to Morrigan it would seem that the baby would have been affected in some way, even before the dark ritual which is why she needed a grey warden to father it because then it would carry their tainted genetic marker. Presumably her ritual had some in built mechanism that ensured conception.

[GodWood]

Quething wrote...
There's some reason to suppose this is just normal cultural sexism in action.

Hopefully.

[whykikyouwhy]

Female Wardens aren't barren, if you go by some of the events in 'The Calling.' I think two Wardens cannot conceive a child together, but (according to the book) a female Warden can have a child with a non-Warden male.

I think the lack of female Wardens may just be old patriarchical tendrils clinging to the Order, or maybe less the Order, and more the lack of willingness of a village/family/individual to push a women into recruitment. Wardens recruit from amongst all walks of life, including the criminal element. The life of a Warden is a harsh one, as well as one with a definitive death sentence. If a society leans toward keeping its women protected - be it at home, in the fields, in battle, etc (but all the while, revered for that aspect that is female, and the ability to bear children and continue the line) - then women may not be the first choice for recruitment, despite whatever skills they may possess.

The lines spoken at the Joining ritual are generalized though, and inclusive of the possibility for female Wardens:

"Since the first, these words have been spoken at the ceremony: Join us, brothers and sisters. Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant. Join us as we carry the duty that can not be forsworn. And should you perish, know that your sacrifice will not be forgotten. And that one day we shall join you."

Of course, it could just be that Alistair hadn't met many women within the Order, or wasn't up on his Warden history.

[Bayz]

Gervaise wrote...

The taint doesn't make you totally
infertile but it does greatly reduce the chances of conceiving. Thus
two grey wardens would have almost nil chance of having a child, whilst
having one or other parent as a grey warden would make conception
difficult. Alistair also expresses reservations because he wonders
what effect the taint would have on the actual baby. According to
Morrigan it would seem that the baby would have been affected in some
way, even before the dark ritual which is why she needed a grey warden
to father it because then it would carry their tainted genetic marker.
Presumably her ritual had some in built mechanism that ensured
conception.

So they are not infertile. They just have
Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtle kids.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think the lack of female Wardens may just be old patriarchical
tendrils clinging to the Order, or maybe less the Order, and more the
lack of willingness of a village/family/individual to push a women into
recruitment. Wardens recruit from amongst all walks of life, including
the criminal element. The life of a Warden is a harsh one, as well as
one with a definitive death sentence. If a society leans toward
keeping its women protected - be it at home, in the fields, in battle,
etc (but all the while, revered for that aspect that is female, and the
ability to bear children and continue the line) - then women may not be
the first choice for recruitment, despite whatever skills they may
possess.

This I believe too.

[Inujade]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Female Wardens aren't barren, if you go by some of the events in 'The Calling....' 

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, since I haven't read The Calling in like a year, but...

[SPOILERS]

...If you're talking about Fiona concieving a baby by Maric, I don't think that really counts. Her taint had been removed somehow (I think it had something to do with an amulet? Again, haven't read in awhile), so she was no longer really a Grey Warden. 

Modifié par Inujade, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:20 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Inujade - I didn't get the sense that the Taint had been removed. It was accelerated initially, but then that acceleration was reversed. Otherwise, wouldn't the Taint have been removed from Duncan as well? (which, he still seemed to be functioning in all of his darkspawn-sense-tingling Taintedness in DA:O)

But it's also been some time since I read the book.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Wardens cannot become Broodmothers, according to David Gaider. (Thank the Maker for that.) Broodmothers are ghouls, but special ghouls not created in the usual way - the specific and horrifying process is detailed in Hespith's rhyme. A female Warden is already tainted, so the darkspawn can't taint her again.

[Huntress]

Inujade wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Female Wardens aren't barren, if you go by some of the events in 'The Calling....' 

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, since I haven't read The Calling in like a year, but...

[SPOILERS]

...If you're talking about Fiona concieving a baby by Maric, I don't think that really counts. Her taint had been removed somehow (I think it had something to do with an amulet? Again, haven't read in awhile), so she was no longer really a Grey Warden. 

The amulet is a magnet to darkspawn and it taint the people that uses it. The architect gave it to someone who gave it to the warden's to made the darksapwn able to find them faster.

[RagingCyclone]

Um...I thought the gender mix was fairly even in Soldier's Peak...or did I miss something there? Alistair states that he had not seen many women, but he was new to a group that was small in Ferelden. I'm not sure if he was ever outside the country as a warden. So do we truly know the ratio of women to men in the wardens? Or is this speculation based on a few lines from rookies and a few scenes in the game? (In The Calling the ratio was also fairly even with another woman serving as Warden Commander)

[Wereparrot]

Quething wrote...


 Alistiar will tell an elven Warden that there was only one elf in his crew as well, so it's clear Wardens aren't immune to prejudice

This on it's own does not suggest discrimination.

But it's also possible that it's not, which leads me to my real question: is it possible to make a Warden into a broodmother? I sort of suspect not

If there is even the slightest chance of this happening, women must be prohibited from joining the Grey Wardens.

[Merci357]

Quething wrote...

What's up with them?

Or rather, the lack of them?

Sophia Dryden, Jenaka, Genevieve, Utha, Martine, Fiona - those are the ones that I can recall without any further research. Quite some in my view, but then again, if you've never played DA: Journeys or read The Calling, then I'd agree, female Wardens never played a prominent role in the games so far.

[jamesp81]

I don't think it's prejudice. It might be an institutional mindset.

Blights are sort of things that have the potential to cause an actual apocalypse / end of the world scenario. It might be part of the Wardens' plan to ensure as many fertile women survive the blights as possible. When in a scenario of total warfare, men are less important than women when it comes to the aftermath and rebuilding civilization.  Grey Wardens have always been about doing what's necessary to stop blights, but it might also be that they worry about how to survive and rebuild after them as well.  In other words, we're more expendable. In that way, it makes sense for Wardens to favor men among their ranks.

Modifié par jamesp81, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:31 .

[KJandrew]

Well the Stolen Throne states that while there are female warriors, they're not as common as males. So that could just translate through as there are less women soldiers and so less women Wardens.
Also the lack of elves doesn't seem like racism to me. Very few elves will have a chance to even practice with weapons and so unless they are a mage or very quick with a knife they're not that likely to be recruited.

[AlexXIV]

Well still better than in the Witcher games where you have no female warriors at all. Just ****s, witches and nurses.

[Bayz]

Female Wardens must be prohibited from service because...duhh...male wardens seeing them dying in combat will suffer from psychological breakdowns so...duhhh instead of training the male wardens to cope out with this inconveniance we cripple brutally our numbers to probably less than a half, after all the Wardens are known for the success of their recruitment campaigns...duhhhh

DUHHHH I said...

[Malanek]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well still better than in the Witcher games where you have no female warriors at all. Just ****s, witches and nurses.

Saskia.

[Bayz]

She enters in the 1st category if you ask me

[Malanek]

Bayz wrote...

She enters in the 1st category if you ask me

Sacrilige!!!! Assuming I know what ***** means. I'm not sure what happens in the story to give you that impression.

[Gespenst]

I would have gone with: Because less want to join.

Bayz wrote...

So they are not infertile. They just have Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtle kids.

DA: The Calling, spoilers



Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden.




/Spoilers

KJandrew wrote...

Well the Stolen Throne states that while there are female warriors, they're not as common as males. So that  could just translate through as there are less women soldiers and so less women Wardens.

I wondered about that line. It didn't seem that there were that few female soldiers in the army at Ostigar. Loghain's second in command is a woman, and so is Ser Cauthrien. ... I'll get my coat.

Modifié par Gespenst, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:46 .

[Quething]

Gespenst wrote...

DA: The Calling, spoilers
Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden.

Meh. I still don't buy the "Fiona is Alistair's mother" theory at all, it makes Alistair's entire personal quest nonsensical.

But yeah, Word of Gaider is that female Wardens can have kids, just not with other Wardens. I'm not sure if that means ever ever or if, say, Morrigan could pull some ritual out of her hat to overcome it.

I wondered about that line. It didn't seem that there were that few female soldiers in the army at Ostigar.

I'm not sure about this. I've never sat down and counted myself, but I'm willing to bet the ratio is about 1:2. There have been some studies that show that a group of 33% women and 66% men looks "even" in gender, and a group that's 50% women will be perceived as "majority female" (this also works with racial minorities). If most of us walked out of Ostagar thinking "oh the Ferelden army has a normal amount of women" (I did, too) it probably means that it was only 1/3 or less. Though that's still higher than the ratio we see in the Wardens.