135 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayz]

Malanek999 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

She enters in the 1st category if you ask me

Sacrilige!!!! Assuming I know what ***** means. I'm not sure what happens in the story to give you that impression.

Nothing actually. In fact Gerald seems to be more of a ***** depending on player's choices than her who stays quite faithful thorough the game. I was just kidding:P

@Gespent

...

Ok, then they definitely give birth to stuff worse than Archdemons!!

[KJandrew]

Quething wrote...


Meh. I still don't buy the "Fiona is Alistair's mother" theory at all, it makes Alistair's entire personal quest nonsensical.

Also the fact that Loghain says that Alistair was sent away so Rowen wouldn't be as angry/ offended. Yet Rowen is dead by the time of the Calling means it has to be a retcon for Fiona to be his mum.

I wondered about that line. It didn't seem that there were that few female soldiers in the army at Ostigar

Well just look at the fighting main characters in Origins. All of the Warrior companions are male. The Redcliffe militia are all male. What female warriors other than your PC possibly can you name? Ser Cauthrine and that one lady knight who you rob
Vast majority of dwarven and human warriors we meet are male too.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well still better than in the Witcher games where you have no female warriors at all. Just ****s, witches and nurses.

Ves, and in the first game there's Rayla. Female warriors are mentioned quite more often as part of the elf commandos.

[SkittlesKat96]

Is it really that unrealistic?

If anything Bioware has pushed gender equality in their games...

I just assume that there aren't many female soldiers and fighters let alone Grey Wardens.

And really that isn't that sexist at all considering what medieval and dark age times were like...in fact like I said, they seem to push gender equality because there are lots of high up female soldiers and fighters (which is a good thing.)

I suppose though it'd be nice to see some more women Wardens though, I found it to be a bit weird not seeing any female GW's at Ostagar.

EDIT: It should also be noted that even genetically females aren't as good fighters/aren't as strong (it has to do with the chromosomes, a lot of female olympic athletes have actually been proven to have male chromosomes or something). Maybe they have a higher risk of death in the joinings and aren't found as often during recruitment.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 03 novembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[whykikyouwhy]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Is it really that unrealistic?

If anything Bioware has pushed gender equality in their games...

I just assume that there aren't many female soldiers and fighters let alone Grey Wardens.

And really that isn't that sexist at all considering what medieval and dark age times were like...in fact like I said, they seem to push gender equality because there are lots of high up female soldiers and fighters (which is a good thing.)

I suppose though it'd be nice to see some more women Wardens though, I found it to be a bit weird not seeing any female GW's at Ostagar.

EDIT: It should also be noted that even genetically females aren't as good fighters/aren't as strong (it has to do with the chromosomes, a lot of female olympic athletes have actually been proven to have male chromosomes or something). Maybe they have a higher risk of death in the joinings and aren't found as often during recruitment.

Gender equality, as we generally know it, really has much to do with roles and wages - allowing the sexes to be regarded on an even playing field. If you can heft a weapon, you can be a soldier, not matter your gender. If you can do a day's work of good solid labor, you should be paid a fair wage based on your work, not diminished in any regard based on whether or not you are male or female.

To say Bioware is pushing anything is unfair, and I would say also inaccurate. While Thedan society as a whole is based on many of our known RL societies, from across the globe, it is not meant to be a direct parallel to anything, nor indicative of a particular time in our history - because it's a fantasy world. Different history, different peoples, etc. There are patriarchal constraints in Thedas, sure -just look at the legend of Aveline, Knight of Orlais. Women were not allowed to be knights/chevaliers until Aveline's valor and skill were recognized. Again, if a woman can hold her own with a sword and shield, why shouldn't she be allowed to fight for her country, beliefs, family, etc? Knighthood in the DA-verse is about many things, including martial skill, yes, but also about values. There shouldn't be a gender bias there - nothing about knighthood is a male-only concept.

Your statement of "It should also be noted that even genetically females aren't as good fighters/aren't as strong " is troubling. Chromosomal makeup alone does not dictate strength or ability. A man is not strong just because he is a man, but because he trains and builds muscles - something women can do just as well without any enhancement drugs. Strength is part muscle, part mind, and there are plenty of women who are not bulky in musculature who could probably lift more weight than some men. So too, with regard to fighting ability, that's another area where training is key.

While you are entitled to your opinion as to how the genders are regarded, in game or out, I simply have to disagree on your take of gender equality being "pushed." Bioware is telling a story, they've created a universe, in which women, men, elves, dwarves, mages, etc are all struggling for their own places of regard in their societies. There's no agenda here, no "push" - just story telling with as many peoples represented as possible, and in which, realistically, women can be just as formidable as the men.

[Errol Dnamyx]

whykikyouwhy wrote...


Your statement of "It should also be noted that even genetically females aren't as good fighters/aren't as strong " is troubling. Chromosomal makeup alone does not dictate strength or ability. A man is not strong just because he is a man, but because he trains and builds muscles - something women can do just as well without any enhancement drugs. Strength is part muscle, part mind, and there are plenty of women who are not bulky in musculature who could probably lift more weight than some men. So too, with regard to fighting ability, that's another area where training is key.

Sorry, but you can't gender mainstream biological facts. Male skeletal muscles are generally faster and have higher maximum power output than female muscles. That makes them better suited for battle with close combat weapons like swords and axes while carrying heavy armor. = Better Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[naledgeborn]

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to. Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals? It's one of those stupid things about Dragon Age I will never get over. One of the reasons why I can play a fem Shep and I can't play a fem Hawke.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Errol Dnamyx - "gender mainstream?" I suppose that's the new buzz word for women having a voice? Interesting. Biological makeup alone does not make for the better, faster, stronger warrior or warden. Being male does not dictate that you can don armor and wield a sword - body types vary, training varies. There are plenty of women with the (unmodified) build who can wear heavy chain and excel at combat. So too, there are plenty of women, IRL and in-game, who possess the tactical skills, timing, speed etc that would make them "better" than their mail counterparts on the battlefield. I suppose then that you would regard any female soldier in the world in our present day as less, or as a weaker member of that military? The fact is, people train to be warriors, and training and physical conditioning can make a man OR a woman something to behold.

@naledgeborn - There were female fighters all throughout our own history. Some societies were matriarchal and thus, women held power and prestige. So Thedan society and its inclusion of women is not so far off the mark, if you want to make some kind of side by side parallel. Which would be silly, since Dragon Age is not meant to be a historical sim, nor align with our world history. It's a fantasy game. Good for you that you can play a female Shepherd though - I suppose predicting and accepting future (fantasy/speculative) societal norms is easier for you than accepting that an elf can kill a dragon or that, maker forbid, a woman can carry a sword.

[Errol Dnamyx]

I have simply stated that men have an advantage over women when it comes to muscle strength, that can not be completely overcome by "training and will". It is determined by our genetic information and can not be changed. Therefore, I would consider men the better recruits for Grey Wardens.
If that makes me a dirty sexist in your eyes, then so be it.

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:09 .

[TastesLikeTNT]

naledgeborn wrote...

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to.

No. As  an actual woman, attitudes like these have a very real impact on me and I certainly don't want to have to deal with that crap in the video games I play.

Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals?

A medieval setting isn't defined by its gender roles. Sometimes you just want to keep the fun stuff - swords and kings and princessess and bloody disputes - and drop the things that are less fun, like misogyny and pestilence and illiteracy. Sometimes you can even add things things like magic and dragon and elves and dwarves because it's a fantasy setting and not a documentary and doesn't have to adher to whatever real-life parallell there is down to the last detail.

People can cry "realism!" and "upper body strength!" all they want, but no amount of muscle is going to save you from a well-placed arrow or a bullet to the head, and so the chances of a male Hawke/Shepard doing everything they do and still coming out alive is practically nil. They still do, because they are not real - they are heroes in a story. If male gamers can have their unrealistic escapist fantasies in peace, female gamers are due the same.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[bleetman]

naledgeborn wrote...

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to. Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals?

Why do people keep expecting settings with medieval technology to have medieval cultural values? Why would they? We're talking about a setting where the dominant, dictate-your-life religion isn't patriarchally organised right down the texts it's based on, but was incited by a woman, is overall lead by a woman and largely operated and maintained by women, to the point whereby high ranking male figures within that religious structure are apparently something of an oddity. Of course they're not going to view women as inferior. Women are incredibly powerful and respected in Thedas.

As far as physical ability goes, good grief. There are women soldiers now. There have been women soldiers previously, going back a very long time. Can we stop pretending they're somehow physically incapable of weidling a weapon of any description?

[whykikyouwhy]

@Errol Dnamyx - I don't believe that I called you "dirty" or "sexist" or "dirty sexist" but if you feel like embracing that title, that's your perogative. My disagreement with your POV does not mean that I have branded you anything.

You seem to be basing your assessment of what makes a "better" recruit solely on physiology though, and implying that Grey Wardens need to be warriors. You could have someone with the build of Conan, but if he doesn't know how to raise a shield to defend his neck, he's no good as a warrior or a warden. So, his muscle, his supposed speed? Irrelevant if he doesn't know *how* to fight or defend.

So too, wardens recruit mages and rogues - neither class wears hefty armor typically. I guess men make better mages and rogues as well then, because...well, they *can* wear armor (if they felt so inclined)?

I don't think that the game has delved into any recruitment standards other than you have to possess noteworthy skills or abilities. And as such, I would maintain that raw muscle strength (untrained or unconditioned) is not indicative of "noteworthy." So I don't know that the wardens are necessarily going around the Thedan towns just looking for strapping young men as their preferred additions to the ranks.

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Biological makeup alone does not make for the better, faster, stronger warrior or warden. Being male does not dictate that you can don armor and wield a sword - body types vary, training varies. There are plenty of women with the (unmodified) build who can wear heavy chain and excel at combat. So too, there are plenty of women, IRL and in-game, who possess the tactical skills, timing, speed etc that would make them "better" than their mail counterparts on the battlefield.

So in theory, there are plenty of women who can contend for the World Heavyweight Champion-title against male boxers? And plenty of women who can compete in the NHL, NFL, NBA on equal terms as their male counterparts?

whykikyouwhy wrote...
There were female fighters all throughout our own history. Some societies were matriarchal and thus, women held power and prestige.

Interesting, can you share any examples of martial matriarchal societies in history?

bleetman wrote...
Why do people keep expecting settings with medieval technology to have medieval cultural values?

Because if a medieval-ish society had modern day America's fertility rates, that society would most likely cease to exist.

[Bayz]

naledgeborn wrote...

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to. Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals? It's one of those stupid things about Dragon Age I will never get over. One of the reasons why I can play a fem Shep and I can't play a fem Hawke.

Why allowing Darkspawn, werewolves, dwarves, elves, golems...will not take you out of the inmersion in a medieval setting, but having women warriors would?

[Bayz]

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...
So in theory, there are plenty of women who can contend for the World Heavyweight Champion-title against male boxers? And plenty of women who can compete in the NHL, NFL, NBA on equal terms as their male counterparts?

Give them enough chemistry to have their muscles make up for their lighter bone density, and make them do a lot of exercise and yes, you can. Not that I would consider that a woman anymore but

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...
Interesting, can you share any examples of martial matriarchal societies in history?

Teh amazons of course  oh you meant real? Well there are no matriarchal societies at least not known to us, (i think there is a genuinely matriarchy in one state in china, but I can't assure), if the theory pointing out that before the copper age we were a matriarchal society I can assure you that we were not peaceful even then. But again that's only theory without facts to support it so disregard it.

Now now, could you share any examples of martial dwarven or elven society in history? Or any of martial Darkspawn societies in history?

Gnaeus Trebonius wrote...
Because if a medieval-ish society had modern day America's fertility rates, that society would most likely cease to exist.

Yes, but also medieval societies rates had more to worry than "random invasion trolololololo". The Black Death killed more people in Europe than any war of the time, I we don't see that happening in origins either.

In medieval societies, a guy who professed a different religion than the one of the state had not protection from said state, meaning that he could be robbed, stabbed etc without any consecuence to the perpetrators. And yes this rule applied for merchants as well.

In fact a guy from a different religion, could NOT be anything than a money lender, at least in christendom, in islamic medieval societies they had to pay the yizha (sp) and were fine.

Let alone than in medieval societies it were unlikely that elves, dwarves and darkspawn existed but hey...

[whykikyouwhy]

@Gnaeus Trebonius - To address your points/questions in order:

1. Yes. There would be women who could contend with their male counterparts in many a professional sport.

2. The Mosuo, Berbers and Sardinian peoples often had women in seats of governmental power. Female warriors appear in the histories of the Chinese, Japanese, and Greek peoples, to name a few.

3. So medieval cultural values are what ensure population growth? Good thing the medieval menfolk were taking up arms against various plagues.

Maybe at some point we can get back to speculating on whether or not there were large numbers of female wardens in the ranks of the Order, or if we just haven't heard their stories yet.

[Errol Dnamyx]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

You seem to be basing your assessment of what makes a "better" recruit solely on physiology though, and implying that Grey Wardens need to be warriors.

Yes, I was probably focussing too much on that. I always imagined a force of Grey Warden to consist mostly of warriors. Naturally, rogues and mages don't need as much raw strength as your typical warrior.

And I just want to make clear that I don't dislike the idea of women joining the Grey Wardens. I just think it is more likely for a recruiter to find a much higher number of men that are willing and able to join. If said recruiter finds a promising female recruit, that's totally okay. And the negative effect on the demographic development (infertility?) is neglectable in that case, since GW's operate in relatively small numbers.

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:13 .

[frustratemyself]

The female wardens are busy in the kitchen, give 'em a break.

[Bayz]

No break! Moar sandwitches!!

[Gnaeus Trebonius]

Bayz wrote...

Teh amazons of course oh you meant real? Well there are no matriarchal societies at least not known to us, (i think there is a genuinely matriarchy in one state in china, but I can't assure), if the theory pointing out that before the copper age we were a matriarchal society I can assure you that we were not peaceful even then. But again that's only theory without facts to support it so disregard it.

I'm no expert, but the ancient Minoan and Egyptian cultures had matriarchal streaks to them, but none of them were martial like the Greek or the Roman for example.

Now now, could you share any examples of martial dwarven or elven society in history? Or any of martial Darkspawn societies in history?

Can I count the pygmes in Africa as a martial dwarven society? Also, the Romans were pretty short...

Yes, but also medieval societies rates had more to worry than "random invasion trolololololo". The Black Death killed more people in Europe than any war of the time, I we don't see that happening in origins either.

In medieval societies, a guy who professed a different religion than the one of the state had not protection from said state, meaning that he could be robbed, stabbed etc without any consecuence to the perpetrators. And yes this rule applied for merchants as well.

In fact a guy from a different religion, could NOT be anything than a money lender, at least in christendom, in islamic medieval societies they had to pay the yizha (sp) and were fine.

Let alone than in medieval societies it were unlikely that elves, dwarves and darkspawn existed but hey...

And wouldn't it be beautiful if all these things were implemented in the game world?

[syllogi]

Quething wrote...

But it's also possible that it's not, which leads me to my real question: is it possible to make a Warden into a broodmother? I sort of suspect not, since if nothing else, it seems like the Architect would have done that to Utha rather than try to wake the Mother if the option were available, and the Wardens probably wouldn't recruit women at all if they thought that letting a woman undertake the Calling could bolster enemy numbers. But the DA:O codex on broodmothers suggests that Wardens have only very recently learned that broodmothers even exist, so perhaps it's never been a concern before. If Wardens aren't immune, or if the Wardens haven't yet learned enough about broodmothers to know if they're immune or not, it seems like something they should definitely be addressing.

It might not be possible to make a female Grey Warden a broodmother, but I'd imagine that they are bigger targets to Darkspawn on the field of battle simply because they are female, and whether they can sense a Grey Warden or not, they'd want to carry off any females they can get.

Even if the Grey Wardens didn't know about the existence of Broodmothers in the past (and, let's face it, it's not the most open organization, this may have been one of those dirty little secrets they just don't talk about), they could have noticed that female Wardens get targetted first on the field and/or taken by Darkspawn.  While that could be an effective distraction technique, it could also be inconvenient.  

[Merci357]

naledgeborn wrote...

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to. Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals? It's one of those stupid things about Dragon Age I will never get over. One of the reasons why I can play a fem Shep and I can't play a fem Hawke.

Almost all fantasy RPGs are "warped" by modern day ideals. All those games, DA one of them, don't even pretent to be a medieval simulator. That's the difference between fantasy and history. To be honest, I'd like to see a medieval game for a change, without magic and fantasy creatures - but in DA or TES, pure fictional settings, I'd rather prefer we strife to include modern day concepts and ideals. It took humanity long enough to get there.