135 réponses à ce sujet

[Wereparrot]

megski wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
That's all very well, but it strikes me that your argument is based primarily on the basis that 'it happens anyway, so why not?'. It does happen anyway, but I for one would be reluctant to test a unit's discipline with the presence of females.

I think you're not realizing that the presence of females, whether in combat or not, IS a big issue.  The military doesn't have to test unit cohesion with females, because there are already females present in most units.  

I know women serve in the army. But they don't serve in the infantry, for the reasons I've put forward. So yes, unit cohesion would have to be tested.

[BigEvil]

tmp7704 wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

How many GWs were in Ferelden anyway? A dozen? Twenty?

If i understand it right, there's only small group of the wardens in Ferelden due to the order being only recently allowed to return to the country.

For what's worth, i don't remember seneschal Varel making any remarks and/or objecting to female warden candidates in the Awakening (and there can be up to three of them there) So going by that you could presume there isn't any inherent reasons not to treat them equally.

Quite right. Varel actually seems more resistant to recruiting a Howe than any of the other recruits.

[Wereparrot]

adneate wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
It does happen anyway, but I for one would be reluctant to test a unit's discipline with the presence of females.

If it's an all volunteer force (Which the Israeli Army isn't) then they are all professionals who willingly choose to serve and they will do their jobs regardless of who they're asked to serve with. The Canadian Army has no restrictions on what women can and can't do, a female officer was killed in action during the war in Afghanistan and two more died when when their LAVs were hit by IEDs. In neither of those cases did the other soldiers lose all control and throw themselves at the Taliban in a suicidal Banzai attack.

But were they infantry? The infantry does not have a monopoly on mortality rates. If these women weren't infantry, then this is quite a vague example. Also, did you mean it was blown up by an IED or hit by an RPG? If it was the former, there would probably be no Taliban around to throw yourself at in a dramatic, reckless and ill-advised personal mission of vengeance. If it was the latter, the Taliban would be several hundred feet away.

[adneate]

Wereparrot wrote...
But were they infantry? The infantry does not have a monopoly on mortality rates. If these women weren't infantry, then this is quite a vague example. Also, did you mean it was blown up by an IED or hit by an RPG? If it was the former, there would probably be no Taliban around to throw yourself at in a dramatic, reckless and ill-advised personal mission of vengeance. If it was the latter, the Taliban would be several hundred feet away.

All were Combat-Arms and in direct engagement with the enemy, the Officer was directing air and artillery assets in a battle to clear out Taliban forces from a village. She was killed when Taliban insurgents fired on her LAV-III with RPGs. The battle continued for 45 minutes after her death and even her own vehicle crew didn't lose their minds and rush off to get themselves killed. The other two were infantry soldiers who were patrolling roads around Kandahar when their LAVs were destroyed by IEDs.

[Bayz]

Was she a Grey Warden? NO so don't derail the topic any further please and stay on topic.

Thing is Grey Wardens need numbers, you do not need to be Arnold to pick up a sword and get yourself covered in chainmail and go kill people. So yeah taking male only is like crippling the numbers, I mean if I were Warden Commander I would kidnap them in their sleep and make all of them to pass the joining but apparently my policies are not that liked for some reason

The fools!...

[Wereparrot]

adneate wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
But were they infantry? The infantry does not have a monopoly on mortality rates. If these women weren't infantry, then this is quite a vague example. Also, did you mean it was blown up by an IED or hit by an RPG? If it was the former, there would probably be no Taliban around to throw yourself at in a dramatic, reckless and ill-advised personal mission of vengeance. If it was the latter, the Taliban would be several hundred feet away.

All were Combat-Arms and in direct engagement with the enemy, the Officer was directing air and artillery assets in a battle to clear out Taliban forces from a village. She was killed when Taliban insurgents fired on her LAV-III with RPGs. The battle continued for 45 minutes after her death and even her own vehicle crew didn't lose their minds and rush off to get themselves killed. The other two were infantry soldiers who were patrolling roads around Kandahar when their LAVs were destroyed by IEDs.

Looking at the role of women in the military on wikipedia now I see that 'women have also commanded large infantry units' in the Canadian army. Do you know how many countries and which allow women to serve in the infantry? I'm British, and the UK allows women to serve in all roles except infantry and a few other combat roles, so I'm still sceptical to this extent.

[adneate]

Wereparrot wrote...
Do you know how many countries and which allow women to serve in the infantry?

13 Countries allow women to serve in combat roles, including frontline infantry.

[Wereparrot]

adneate wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Do you know how many countries and which allow women to serve in the infantry?

13 Countries allow women to serve in combat roles, including frontline infantry.

Which thirteen? I'm interested, as my own country does not. Canada for one, and Israel allowed it on an experimental basis: what of the experiment? Do they still allow it?

[Bayz]

Spain I think does, or at leas t in theory. My friends in the army said that they have only seen women serving in Boot Camps or as comissioned officers so...yeah

They are a huge percentage of the spanish army btw so they must see combat from time to time I guess...

[adneate]

Wereparrot wrote...
Which thirteen? I'm interested, as my own country does not.

Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Israel, France, Finland, Italy, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Serbia, Denmark and Switzerland. The United States and the UK are among the other countries that allow women to serve but don't allow them to be in certain combat roles.

Israel still allows women to serve as infantry soldiers and to be drafted into the IDF. Israel's manpower shortage and constant state of war or tension with it neighbours trumped any other concern.

[Wereparrot]

I can see why Israel would need ever ounce of military strength it can muster. All the countries mentioned are either Western or have strong allies in the West, so it's a bit strange that the US and UK haven't followed suit. I imagine the drive to include women in the infantry was largely political with the military dragging it's feet to a certain extent, but nevertheless I trust the generals know what they're doing, although if or until the UK does follow suit, I will remain sceptical.

[megski]

The us military is actually taking steps to allow women into combat on a case by case basis. Although still not infantry, they're taught to be a little combat savvy versus other female soldiers and assist infantryman in dealing with civilians mainly. Stuff like this has been going on since my husband has been deploying, but now there are females that are always traveling with infantry soldier instead of sporadically like when he was deployed.

[Yuqi]

Okay I just woke up. an re-read my earlier post. Trying to make sense of it..
I think what I was trying to get at was, there are strengths and weaknesses in both genders, as a general rule.

There are always exceptions to those rules, of course. I go to weight-lifting classes,and men (Because of how they are built anatomically) generally have an easier time first up with the weights. I have seen cases were much lankier men have a harder time then the women,building up muscle. So then I think body types also come into it.

Ultimately I think there are too many varibles to say one is better then the other.

[Gespenst]

naledgeborn wrote...

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to. Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals? It's one of those stupid things about Dragon Age I will never get over. One of the reasons why I can play a fem Shep and I can't play a fem Hawke.

It may be a medieval world but it's not our medieval world. Why would Thedas have the same mores that ours did?

If you want a pert answer, in DA Jesus was a woman.

matriarchy

...

A matriarchy is a society in which females, especially mothers, have the central roles of political leadership and moral authority. It is also sometimes called a gynocratic or gynocentric society.

There are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal, although there are attested matrilinear, matrilocal, and avunculocal societies, especially among indigenous peoples of Asia and Africa, such as those of the Minangkabau, E De (Rhade), Mosuo, Berbers and Tuareg and, in Europe, e.g., Sardinian people.

Huh. Also:

Dear Experts everywhere.

Please stop inventing new words that all sound the same.

Yours faithfully

My Brain.

Yuqi wrote...

Uhm let's not forget all men started as women, so technically males are a mutation. So the whole male superior thing, is a lie.

...What? First off I think your use of "mutation" is inaccurate (but I'm no biologist) second off the one doesn't follow from the other.

Yuqi wrote...

There are men who look like women and vice versa. Men have a shorter lifespan,a weaker immune system ect. So men are definantly not stronger.

How does having a weaker immune system affect the amount of muscles in your arm?

Yuqi wrote...

If you want to take it even further, men are the majority in the worst crimes. Rape, Child Abuse, Murder,

Come on now, as far as rape goes that's a nonsense 'statistic' because only men (setting aside various intersex issues for a moment) can commit rape. You need a penis to rape.

The second is simply not true.

The third... I'm going to have to give you the third (OTTOMH, Men are more likely to kill someone, women are more likely to kill people close to them and... I don't know remember anything else.)

Yuqi wrote...

No it's mainly upper body muscle mass, that s why they lift things easier. Strength is no just pysical it is a mental conditioning..Woman can multitask better, which is why they are better at things like archery, and more specilised combat.

I don't know about that, what kind of archery are we talking about? Competition archery? Combat archery? Because draw weight is all about upper body strength. When you're not trying to shoot through a guy then it's probably more up in the air.

Men also have better long distance vision (I think women have better peripheral vision).

Yuqi wrote...

Assasination is far easier for a female then a male.

That's true actually. I should know, I played Shogun Total War, if a ninja failed an assassination attempt he would be killed, if a geisha failed she'd just try again next turn. Women are OP ... in Shogun Total War anyway.

jlb524 wrote...

Yes! It's highly unrealistic that warrior Male Hawke could best the Arishok in single combat...I mean...come on! Arishok got bigger muscles!! He's the better warrior! Obviously.

The problem is the Arishok is a rogue, when was the last time you saw an 8ft 400lb rogue? Never, that's when!

Which all goes to show... something.

Modifié par Gespenst, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Quething]

You know, I knew where this thread would end up when I started it, but I did hope I'd at least get to three pages before it turned.

[AlexXIV]

Well I guess I'll be pouring a bit of oil in the fire here. I think it is commonly known that the male musculature is more developed than the female. Yeah, women can also do all kinds of sports, but in almost every category, the world best are males. I mean it's no coincidence that for example in combat sports men and women don't fight in the same class. Same counts for the brain. The male brain is in average larger. Historically the males have been hunters, collectors, defenders of their clan, not to mention leaders. So they always had the more difficult challenges to pass. Not saying there couldn't be exceptions, but exceptions are just that, exceptions.

Though DA is a fantasy realm and anything could be possible. So the answer why not more female Wardens are around in DA is simply that nobody wrote them in.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 novembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[Yuqi]

@Gespents

My posts from last night.were garbage. Sleep-deprived  & semi-drunk garbage.

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I guess I'll be pouring a bit of oil in the fire here. I think it is commonly known that the male musculature is more developed than the female. Yeah, women can also do all kinds of sports, but in almost every category, the world best are males.

Perhaps it's merely perceived that the world's best are male because age-old societal constraints have made it such that men and women don't share the same competitions. If a man and a woman aren't going head to head to see who may be "the best" then it would be somewhat generous to say that "the best" are male.

I mean it's no coincidence that for example in combat sports men and women don't fight in the same class. Same counts for the brain. The male brain is in average larger.

A larger brain doesn't necessarily dictate that it serves the owner better. While larger brain mass may correlate with the ability to handle more complex cognitive abilities, that is not an absolute, nor does that dictate that the person with the larger brain would be better in battle - since we're talking about Wardens here, right?

Historically the males have been hunters, collectors, defenders of their clan, not to mention leaders. So they always had the more difficult challenges to pass. Not saying there couldn't be exceptions, but exceptions are just that, exceptions.

But historically where, and with what culture? What you may consider an exception could be the rule for a particular region or country. There have been groups of people whose male population is responsible for tending the crops while the women hunt and gather. I can't agree with the statement of men having "more difficult challenges to pass" - how are you defining difficulty, how are you defining challenges? There are things endured by women that could be far more challenging than those ever experienced by men. This is really too broad of a generalization, imo.

Though DA is a fantasy realm and anything could be possible. So the answer why not more female Wardens are around in DA is simply that nobody wrote them in.

I'm all for getting this topic back on track....

I just think we haven't seen the majority of female Grey Wardens yet. We've encountered a few, as the story allows. I'm sure there are more, and that Alistair just had a limited view/experience when commenting on their number.

[TheBlackBaron]

I've never read the codex entries on the broodmothers to suggest that female Wardens are immune or that they are a recent discovery.

So in light of that, I'll fall upon the old standby response that the Wardens are aware of the dangers females face while fighting Darkspawn down in the Deep Roads, which is where the majority of their work takes place when there is not a Blight ongoing, and correspondingly discourage recruiting females that are not exceptionally talented (as opposed to just "very talented" like most Wardens).

[Bayz]

Yuqi wrote...

Uhm let's not forget all men started as women, so technically males are a mutation. So the whole male superior thing, is a lie.

All humans start as tailed fishes so you are the mutation

We are all mutants, otherwise every single human would be a clone and clones are oh so boring, also have more probabilities of dying due to mass spreaded viruses than we, normal ones do. We are just stronger that's why we need two people to reproduce, to pile up the strenghts and weakneses of two diferent DNA's and merge them together in order to have something different from both parents to come up.

And as a side note keep in mind that, evulionarly mutations that survive, and manage to pass to the next generation are the ones that actually are supposed to have served to make the species fittest and allow them to live and adapt itself better with the enviroment, meaning that mutants are as a general note better than the original material.

That said obviously male are not a mutation, mainly because not matter how many scissors you may do, you are not getting pregnant that way (wow that was way too rude) We are at least reproduction devices if you wish.

Now now, are we getting on ****ing topic again?

Modifié par Bayz, 04 novembre 2011 - 11:25 .

[mousestalker]

If women don't join the Wardens, where will the Wardens get their socks, mittens and other knitted garments?

QED.

[Bayz]

Does natural strenght make any difference when weapons are thrown into the equation?
Does natural resilence make any difference when armors are present as well?

I know why women wouldn't be included in the normal population of Thedas, but the wardens need numbers, independently of sex, race, religion. You are not a man\\woman\\dwarf\\whatever once you get into the Wardens. You are a Warden. You are a number numbers do not have gender.

That said Wardens choose on the ones they see skill, so I guess for the role of women in most of Thedan society they are less likely to be proved.

That said remember that Ferelden have had at least one Warden Commander which was female, even if it didn't go well...

[ejoslin]

Gespenst wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

In game women shouldn't be warriors. Or at the very least looked down upon and constantly challenged or talked down to. Why have a setting based on the medieval world only to warp it with modern day ideals? It's one of those stupid things about Dragon Age I will never get over. One of the reasons why I can play a fem Shep and I can't play a fem Hawke.

It may be a medieval world but it's not our medieval world. Why would Thedas have the same mores that ours did?

If you want a pert answer, in DA Jesus was a woman.

Yuqi wrote...

If you want to take it even further, men are the majority in the worst crimes. Rape, Child Abuse, Murder,

Come on now, as far as rape goes that's a nonsense 'statistic' because only men (setting aside various intersex issues for a moment) can commit rape. You need a penis to rape.

The second is simply not true.

The third... I'm going to have to give you the third (OTTOMH, Men are more likely to kill someone, women are more likely to kill people close to them and... I don't know remember anything else.)

Just as an aside, you do not need a penis to commit rape just as you don't need a vagina to be a victim of rape.  Rape can be committed with anything that can be used for penetration.  However, most women who are convicted of rape are either convicted of statutory rape OR as an accessory.  

Also, did you know that most women who are murdered are murdered by a boyfriend or husband?  And child abuse, I'm not sure if you can get a fair statistic on that because "failure to protect" falls under child abuse as well.  Though it wouldn't surprise me if there were more women who actually abuse their children because there are more young women who are single and raising their child than young men. Tossing statements around like this, however, is kind of meaningless without context.  Both your statements and mine fall under "Lies, damn lies, and statistics."  

Now to get back on topicl As far as women warriors in a videogame?  I find it more likely than dragons existing.  I find it more likely than men or women casting spells.  It's a silly debate.

I wonder if fewer women aspire to be gray wardens.  You have the little boys growing up wanting to be heros (Ser Jory talked about that).  Women may not have the same kind of dreams.  Some may, however.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:00 .

[AlexXIV]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I guess I'll be pouring a bit of oil in the fire here. I think it is commonly known that the male musculature is more developed than the female. Yeah, women can also do all kinds of sports, but in almost every category, the world best are males.

Perhaps it's merely perceived that the world's best are male because age-old societal constraints have made it such that men and women don't share the same competitions. If a man and a woman aren't going head to head to see who may be "the best" then it would be somewhat generous to say that "the best" are male.

I mean it's no coincidence that for example in combat sports men and women don't fight in the same class. Same counts for the brain. The male brain is in average larger.

A larger brain doesn't necessarily dictate that it serves the owner better. While larger brain mass may correlate with the ability to handle more complex cognitive abilities, that is not an absolute, nor does that dictate that the person with the larger brain would be better in battle - since we're talking about Wardens here, right?

Historically the males have been hunters, collectors, defenders of their clan, not to mention leaders. So they always had the more difficult challenges to pass. Not saying there couldn't be exceptions, but exceptions are just that, exceptions.

But historically where, and with what culture? What you may consider an exception could be the rule for a particular region or country. There have been groups of people whose male population is responsible for tending the crops while the women hunt and gather. I can't agree with the statement of men having "more difficult challenges to pass" - how are you defining difficulty, how are you defining challenges? There are things endured by women that could be far more challenging than those ever experienced by men. This is really too broad of a generalization, imo.

Though DA is a fantasy realm and anything could be possible. So the answer why not more female Wardens are around in DA is simply that nobody wrote them in.

I'm all for getting this topic back on track....

I just think we haven't seen the majority of female Grey Wardens yet. We've encountered a few, as the story allows. I'm sure there are more, and that Alistair just had a limited view/experience when commenting on their number.

Well look at olympic games/disciplines. Men jump higher, farther, run faster, throw farther, swim faster. I could go on forever. It is a simple evolutionary thing. It is not even linked to cultures because we evolved that way for millions of years, so from a time long before the first civilisations. Of course it is also a social problem, as in society dictates it so. But women are to blame themselves if they let others dictate who they are or should be or what they should do. From children age males are expected to do sports. Not all do, but most. Nobody really expects females to do sports, if they do fine, if not also fine. That's why. Males have more pressure. On the other hand of course males have higher rewards. Male sportsman in general make more money than female.

[whykikyouwhy]

@AlexXIV - You make the statement "But women are to blame themselves if they let others dictate who they are or should be or what they should do"...but then follow up with "Males have more pressure." I take it that said"pressure" (whatever it is) doesn't in any way influence men, and they are blameless if they fall sway to it? I'm not certain where you are going with this very broad generalization...

...so too, this runs the risk of going further off-topic than the thread has already traveled. So again, let's get back to Grey Wardens, in the fantasy realm of Thedas, because truly, these notions you have expressed represent an impasse that has nothing to do with that Blight-battling Order.