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[AlexXIV]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@AlexXIV - You make the statement "But women are to blame themselves if they let others dictate who they are or should be or what they should do"...but then follow up with "Males have more pressure." I take it that said"pressure" (whatever it is) doesn't in any way influence men, and they are blameless if they fall sway to it? I'm not certain where you are going with this very broad generalization...

...so too, this runs the risk of going further off-topic than the thread has already traveled. So again, let's get back to Grey Wardens, in the fantasy realm of Thedas, because truly, these notions you have expressed represent an impasse that has nothing to do with that Blight-battling Order.

Well it's why we see so few female wardens or warriors in general. Not to mention if females would be as well suited for combat as men then they would probably look more like men. For example would have broader chests, for bigger lungs, heart, etc. I didn't mean to blame, just trying to give my input on what I think are reasons why things are like they are. Evolution is every economic. Meaning, creatures of any sort usually don't have any spare parts without purpose. Because that would be a waste of energy. It may be generalized, but that's how things work on the very base. That's why it counts for everyone. Would women be hunters and men home keepers, it would be the other way round. So you can blame society, but our society developed this way for a reason. Reason is that in society different people have different jobs. And if one gender specialized on a job then it will evolve over the generations to be more suited for this job. That's how I think evolutions works anyway. And in respect of the fantasy world I have already said what I think. They didn't write more female wardens in. If the writers decided 90% of the Wardens are female, then that's what we get. Also I think it is stated in DA:O already that female wardens are rare, or a rare sight for the common citizen at least. That's how I interprete the reaction of some to my female wardens anyway.

[Noatz]

In reality, a world such as this wouldn't have the large amounts of female soldiers it does. This is Bioware appealing to an audience, and/or imposing modern values on a medieval or early renaissance society. Women generally either didn't want to be, or weren't accepted as soldiers in these times because they're physically weaker. Apart from the rare exception (Joan of Arc etc), it just didn't happen.

As for the wardens, I don't think Bioware would choose to represent women unfairly in just this one order - especially one so integral to the plot. I suspect its probably just them forgetting to make more female wardens. If there was a legitimate lore related reason for it it would likely have been explained somewhere in a codex or whatever.

[mousestalker]

At the risk of writing a serious post on this topic, you're conflating Wardens with warriors. In Ferelden the Grey Wardens are allegedly restricted to one mage at a time. Elsewhere, they probably are not (they certainly had more in Ferelden during Avernus' time). As far as magic goes, can anyone cite any lore that says men and women differ as to the nature and power of their magic? Similarly for rogues, who excel at sneaking and scouting. Women have been spies and assassins for as long as there have been spies and assassins (you can find examples of both in the Bible, for example).

Alistair says that the Grey Wardens are excellent warriors, but Alistair has a idealistic view of the order. Looking at the people recruited in game, you get a fairly diverse group, with warriors being the largest segment, but not a majority (the Warden PC, Ali, Davy, Ser Jory, Sigrun, Velanna, Nathaniel Howe, Anders, Oghren, Mhairi, and either Bethany or Carver, depending).

[Gespenst]

ejoslin wrote...

Just as an aside, you do not need a penis to commit rape just as you don't need a vagina to be a victim of rape.  Rape can be committed with anything that can be used for penetration.  However, most women who are convicted of rape are either convicted of statutory rape OR as an accessory. 

Well that depends where you are.

Sexual Offences Act 2003

S1(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person ( with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
©A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

But there's also

S2
Assault by penetration
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person
( with a part of his body or anything else,
(b)the penetration is sexual,
©B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.


S3
Sexual assault
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (,
(b)the touching is sexual,
©B does not consent to the touching, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.

Also, did you know that most women who are murdered are murdered by a boyfriend or husband? 

80% of the people murdered by men are other men.
60% of the people murdered by women are their boyfriend or husband.

Eh, statistics.

And child abuse...

I haven't seen the raw data, just the conclusions by the various children protection thingies.

I wonder if fewer women aspire to be gray wardens.  You have the little boys growing up wanting to be heros (Ser Jory talked about that).  Women may not have the same kind of dreams.  Some may, however.

I thought the same thing myself. I mean Cailan probably would have run off to join the wardens if Loghain had let him...

[ejoslin]

I'm fairly sure that by your definition (which is different in my state -- the penetration can be by anything) S2 and S3 would also be considered rape, though not first-degree rape.

And your statistics on murder do not contradict what I said about most women who are murdered are murdered by their boyfriends or husbands. Without actual numbers, you can't draw any conclusions (the raw data, not the statistical data). Here's why -- I'm completely making up these numbers. If 10 women commit murder, and 6 of them killed their husbands, then 60% of all women who kill kill their husband. And if 10,000 men commit murder in the same time period, and 8,000 of them commit murder against men, then 80% of them committed murder against men. And say in that same period, 1000 women were killed, and 700 of them were killed by their husbands, then 70% of all women who are killed are killed by their husbands. And THEN you can say, well, 60% of all women who kill kill their husbands while only 7% of all men who kill kill their wives.

Playing with numbers, it's fun.  It's why I don't trust studies studies that don't provide the raw data -- you can get the numbers to say anything you'd like.

Edit: I didn't quote you because wow, that would be a HUGE post.  

Second edit: And you are right, I can picture Cailin running off to join the wardens given half a chance.  

Another edit: I just realized, in your definitions, both S1 (assault with a penis) and S2 (assault by penetration) carry the exact same sentence so are probably treated with the same gravity.  But even if you left out S1, I bet S2 and S3 would also be overwhelmingly done by males just based on the fact that most sexual assaults are done by males.  Ok, NOW I can drop it

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Bayz]

Noatz wrote...

In reality, a world such as this wouldn't have the large amounts of female soldiers it does. This is Bioware appealing to an audience, and/or imposing modern values on a medieval or early renaissance society. Women generally either didn't want to be, or weren't accepted as soldiers in these times because they're physically weaker. Apart from the rare exception (Joan of Arc etc), it just didn't happen.

As for the wardens, I don't think Bioware would choose to represent women unfairly in just this one order - especially one so integral to the plot. I suspect its probably just them forgetting to make more female wardens. If there was a legitimate lore related reason for it it would likely have been explained somewhere in a codex or whatever.

You are thinking it is a Medieval\\Renaissance setting. It is not. It is an Standard Fantasy Setting. It is not historic, it has dragons and everybody knows Jesus killed them before the Medieval Era.

[ejoslin]

Ah, to get back to gray wardens... In the game world, there are three types of fighters -- only one kind relies on raw strength. Rogues and mages certainly do not require bulk, and for rogues, it could be a detriment. Thedas IS very different from our world. As many have pointed out, Andraste was a woman. The Chantry is run by women. Women in general are given more respect.

But what it comes down to is it's a fantasy world. I don't see the game as catering to women because they include strong women and allow women to be portrayed as effective fighters. Most men on this board probably could not do the feats that their Hawkes/Wardens could do either. That's fine.

[Bayz]

ejoslin wrote...

But what it comes down to is it's a fantasy world. I don't see the game as catering to women because they include strong women and allow women to be portrayed as effective fighters. Most men on this board probably could not do the feats that their Hawkes/Wardens could do either. That's fine.

You mean catering an army from a country almost at civil war to fight off a completely different enemi who had been conquering the country and also the help from other forces who had to deal with their own **** and then defeat a dragon ++?

Of Couse I Could NOT do it:whistle:

[Noatz]

Bayz wrote...

You are thinking it is a MedievalRenaissance setting. It is not. It is an Standard Fantasy Setting. It is not historic, it has dragons and everybody knows Jesus killed them before the Medieval Era.

Of course, but any fantasy world must use something as its basis. The general technological and cultural development of Thedas places it around this time in historical terms.

That it is different from our world is obvious, but still. Andraste and the Chantry contribute towards greater gender equality in society, and as far as mages go physical strength has no bearing, so the general status of women in the setting is perfectly logical. The issue - if one is too hung up on realism - relates only to soldiers specifically.

[AlexXIV]

Actually it is based on medivial myth and legend more than reality. A fantasy world is just about things you like to have no matter how irrational they seem. You patch them together as good as you can there you go.

[Bayz]

Exactly. I see every Fereldean woman at arms as a little Bradamante all in herself.