33 réponses à ce sujet

[Jinnth]

Well frst of all, I'm on my 2nd playtrough, both on nightmare, playing on PC.

I see a lot of people saying how awesome AW/BM is but honestly I'm not getting the whole point about AW... they are like... tanks who aren't knockdown immune and who can't control aggro ? They look pretty stong by themselves but I don't see what they can really bring to a team compared to... well a BM/SH

Maybe it's just the way I play but my mages aren't under attack often enough for them to require any armor, I could probably keep them naked and wouldn't see a difference.

Just curious to see what people think an AW can actually bring to a team that other classes can't.

[kraidy1117]

I personally hate AW, but I love BM. AW would be good if you want to solo on nightmare but overall SH+SS and SH+BM are the best combos.

[Crazyhobo51]

Arcane Warriors are probably THE most overpowered class in the game if played correctly. Sure, they may not be able to tank better than a sword and board warrior, but if there is one thing that I absolutely know about them, it is that they are more survivable. Especially when cross specialized with Spirit Healer, it is near impossible for an Arcane Warrior to die outside of Nightmare, they just have so much armor and defense it's ridiculous. Sure they may have like 80% fatigue and can't cast spells without using up all of their mana, but they can get to the point where they solo Gaxkang with ease. In short, they raep.

[GilgameshXD]

Their appeal is being very hard to kill and giving you a simple way to solo.



But yea, on their own they are nothing special. Their weaker spellcasters than pure mages, and have inferior melee dps to dual wielding warriors and rogues.



And considering tanking (which they aren't that great at either due to no aggro control) is not that necessary in this game, they are simply an inefficient, if a fun option.

[5Warlocks]

AW was mostly a waste on my Nightmare playthrough; however, my Warden (BM/AW) was the only character left at 50% on the High Dragon and 30% on the Archdemon, so I wouldn't have gotten "I'm Kind of a Big Deal" without it. Worthwhile for that reason alone, imo.

[Jinnth]

5Warlocks wrote...

AW was mostly a waste on my Nightmare playthrough; however, my Warden (BM/AW) was the only character left at 50% on the High Dragon and 30% on the Archdemon, so I wouldn't have gotten "I'm Kind of a Big Deal" without it. Worthwhile for that reason alone, imo.

Well, I will soon have it too on my tank (2nd nightmare playtrough too). I think it's more about the experience gathered than the actualy build.


And it's wierd to have a tank character be the "only one left"...

Modifié par Jinnth, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[DrekorSilverfang]

Jinnth wrote...

Well frst of all, I'm on my 2nd playtrough, both on nightmare, playing on PC.

I see a lot of people saying how awesome AW/BM is but honestly I'm not getting the whole point about AW... they are like... tanks who aren't knockdown immune and who can't control aggro ? They look pretty stong by themselves but I don't see what they can really bring to a team compared to... well a BM/SH

Maybe it's just the way I play but my mages aren't under attack often enough for them to require any armor, I could probably keep them naked and wouldn't see a difference.

Just curious to see what people think an AW can actually bring to a team that other classes can't.

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

[shyzny]

honestly, it might be kinda dumb, but I just find having an auto-attack character too boring, so I use my character as a mage first and then switch to heavy armor, a 2h, and combat magic to melee when oom.

[Jinnth]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

Ok, but since you need your AW to activelly cast CCs and hex to get aggro, doesn't that mean that your other mages, who should teorically be able to cast CCs and hexes more activelly than your AW due to better mana efficiency and the fact that they aren't tanking/beingknocked have to reduce the amount of CCs they cast below the level of the AW so they don't generate more aggro than the AW, resulting in a less effective team ?

Modifié par Jinnth, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[WildAce]

what makes me sad about the Arcane warrior is your AC and stuff doesnt stack with shapwshifter



just think how much better shape shifting could be if you could be wearing plate under that furr for added Armor and defense

[GilgameshXD]

Jinnth wrote...

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

Ok, but since your
need your AW to activelly cast CCs and hex to get aggro, doesn't that mean that your other mages, who should teorically be able to cast CCs and hexes more activelly than your AW due to better mana efficiency and the fact that they aren't tanking/beingknocked down don't they have to reduce the amount of CCs they cast below the level of the AW so they don't generate more aggro than the AW, resulting in a less effective team ?

I don't think anyone claims AW are effcient, just hard to kill and capable of chipping everything to death, sooner or later.

[WildAce]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Jinnth wrote...

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

Ok, but since your
need your AW to activelly cast CCs and hex to get aggro, doesn't that mean that your other mages, who should teorically be able to cast CCs and hexes more activelly than your AW due to better mana efficiency and the fact that they aren't tanking/beingknocked down don't they have to reduce the amount of CCs they cast below the level of the AW so they don't generate more aggro than the AW, resulting in a less effective team ?

I don't think anyone claims AW are effcient, just hard to kill and capable of chipping everything to death, sooner or later.

exactly.

take the redcliff skelton battle. my first play through on normal i just ran in with my party not really playing tacticly and every militia person, and my whole party except my main character which was an AW was slaughterd very fast so it was just my arcane warrior left alone surrounded by all the skels and i eventually beat them all down. hardly efficient but the survivability is was unmatched. alistar is paper thin by comparision.

my second playthough on nightmare i had a crowed control mage, no damage spells and i didnt lose a single party member or militia person in the redcliff fight. because i actually played smarter.

Modifié par WildAce, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:36 .

[Lord Phoebus]

The trick is to wear to reduced fatigue armor and not to use your buffs until you run out of mana (this way you can cast as much as a regular mage). At that point if there are any enemies left alive you can buff up, run in and beat the crap out of them. Since most of the buffs are instant casts you can put them up really fast too.



Holding aggro on a mage isn't too hard either since, as long as no one else in the party has any aggro drawing abilities up, the enemies are going to run after the guy who hit them with a Mass Paralysis + Death Cloud combo. Miasma probably also helps to keep them focused.



It also gives you options against tough bosses with minions. Once you pick up shimmering shield, there are very few bosses that you can't just stand toe to toe against, which helps if they have minions and are immune to stuns (force field has a really short duration against some bosses and petrify doesn't work against the physical ones). Your AW can tank them while the rest of the party cleans up the stragglers. E.g. my AW took on the Revenant in Redcliff solo and killed him without needing a single heal before the rest of the party could take out the archers.



The armor also helps with using the cone spells where you want to be close to use them. Even if you don't plan on meleeing, one point in AW lets your mages use armor without having to put the power up. That means your mage doesn't have to run, cast glyph of repulsion or pull a warrior off the line when that one enemy get's by your tank and runs straight at you, you can ignore him, continue your plan and mop him up at the end. Say you're running a nuking Blood Mage, you put your talent points into blood magic, primal and entropy spells and you're looking for a second specialization. If you aren't going to put any points into a specialization, shapeshifter isn't bad with its armor bonus. Otherwise you're left with SH and AW. SH doesn't help you nuke, and your burning 2 spells to be able to revive a fallen ally, maybe 3 for lifeward. But if you're using your poultices you should rarely have to revive a fallen party member in battle, and if you're nuking properly your allies shouldn't be taking much damage anyway. You would be better off spending those spells elsewhere. With AW, one spell is giving you +30 armor when you have to be close to use that Cone of Cold or fire cone spell, there aren't any other spells that are going to offer you a better defensive bonus for less investment.

[hexaligned]

I agree they are overhyped, they are awesome in solo or duo play, being invinscible dosn't make you a tank though. Unless I gimp my other dps all to hell an AW can not hold aggro for more than a few secs, and in a group role, if they aren't tanking, that leaves them standing there auto attacking like idiots, I find with a full group, it's a lot more efficent just to leave my mages casters.

[Spyndel]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Jinnth wrote...

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

Ok, but since your
need your AW to activelly cast CCs and hex to get aggro, doesn't that mean that your other mages, who should teorically be able to cast CCs and hexes more activelly than your AW due to better mana efficiency and the fact that they aren't tanking/beingknocked down don't they have to reduce the amount of CCs they cast below the level of the AW so they don't generate more aggro than the AW, resulting in a less effective team ?

I don't think anyone claims AW are effcient, just hard to kill and capable of chipping everything to death, sooner or later.

I think it greatly depends on your definition of "efficiency".  I would argue that AW is the *most* efficient.  A fairly boring class to play, being good at everything, but defintiely efficient.

Not being in any real danger from any enemies in the game on normal difficulty, and being able to kill at a reasonable rate withough having to expend any mana or stamina, or much in the way of consumables, is pretty darn *efficient*.  Much more efficient than having to run around avoiding aggro and chugging mana potions, or being a hit and fade super damage Cunning rogue who has to stealth and retreat all the time because he can't hang in extended battle.  Certainly more efficient from a resources standpoint.

  Not to mention having the option to cast any of a number of powerful spells as well, should you opt to, definitely makes an AW the most value you could possibly pack into a single party slot, so it is efficient in this regard as well.

And after level 16, when Combat Magic becomes fully featured, the AW is no Longer "chipping away".   Certainly not as damaging as a min/maxed dedicated melee DPS-er, but with a 20-25 Dex, a 45+ Mag, with Misama Flaming and TK weaps, my slotted Sword and dagger AW easily did more damage than 2H Oghren or  Sword and Board Allistair, and was far less fragile than either of those, even when not running Shimmering Shield. 

Modifié par Spyndel, 22 novembre 2009 - 11:25 .

[GilgameshXD]

Spyndel wrote...

GilgameshXD wrote...

Jinnth wrote...

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

Ok, but since your
need your AW to activelly cast CCs and hex to get aggro, doesn't that mean that your other mages, who should teorically be able to cast CCs and hexes more activelly than your AW due to better mana efficiency and the fact that they aren't tanking/beingknocked down don't they have to reduce the amount of CCs they cast below the level of the AW so they don't generate more aggro than the AW, resulting in a less effective team ?

I don't think anyone claims AW are effcient, just hard to kill and capable of chipping everything to death, sooner or later.

I think it greatly depends on your definition of "efficiency".  I would argue that AW is the *most* efficient.  A fairly boring class to play, being good at everything, but defintiely efficient.

Not being in any real danger from any enemies in the game on normal difficulty, and being able to kill at a reasonable rate withough having to expend any mana or stamina, or much in the way of consumables, is pretty darn *efficient*.  Much more efficient than having to run around avoiding aggro and chugging mana potions, or being a hit and fade super damage Cunning rogue who has to stealth and retreat all the time because he can't hang in extended battle.  Certainly more efficient from a resources standpoint.

  Not to mention having the option to cast any of a number of powerful spells as well, should you opt to, definitely makes an AW the most value you could possibly pack into a single party slot, so it is efficient in this regard as well.

And after level 16, when Combat Magic becomes fully featured, the AW is no Longer "chipping away".   Certainly not as damaging as a min/maxed dedicated melee DPS-er, but with a 20-25 Dex, a 45+ Mag, with Misama Flaming and TK weaps, my slotted Sword and dagger AW easily did more damage than 2H Oghren or  Sword and Board Allistair, and was far less fragile than either of those, even when not running Shimmering Shield. 

Well it is efficient when it comes to not using potions I suppose. Or at least it is until the fix the shimmering bug and there goes that. In either case, there is need to worry about supplies in this game.

Pure mages that stack spell power do more damage. Dual Wield warriors can draw aggro and do more damage. Rogues hardly need to fade away and relocate during a battle, and also do more damage. And compared to all of these, you are chipping away. Of course you are doing more than Alistiar and Oghren, they are both specced as some of the worst builds in the game.

Arcane Warriors are great if you want to solo the game though, due to the survivability, but they hardly maximizing the potential of your party.

But there is nothing efficient about wasting a mage by turning him into a melee tank that can't hold agrro and barely does more damage than sword+board warriors while you could be blasting things away into little bits like a proper mage.

[Spyndel]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Spyndel wrote...

GilgameshXD wrote...

Jinnth wrote...

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Your group needs to be built with an AW tank in mind. Your AW should be throwing on CC and hexes, this will draw aggro very very easily. You can also combine with ageless 2h sword to generate additional threat.

Ok, but since your
need your AW to activelly cast CCs and hex to get aggro, doesn't that mean that your other mages, who should teorically be able to cast CCs and hexes more activelly than your AW due to better mana efficiency and the fact that they aren't tanking/beingknocked down don't they have to reduce the amount of CCs they cast below the level of the AW so they don't generate more aggro than the AW, resulting in a less effective team ?

I don't think anyone claims AW are effcient, just hard to kill and capable of chipping everything to death, sooner or later.

I think it greatly depends on your definition of "efficiency".  I would argue that AW is the *most* efficient.  A fairly boring class to play, being good at everything, but defintiely efficient.

Not being in any real danger from any enemies in the game on normal difficulty, and being able to kill at a reasonable rate withough having to expend any mana or stamina, or much in the way of consumables, is pretty darn *efficient*.  Much more efficient than having to run around avoiding aggro and chugging mana potions, or being a hit and fade super damage Cunning rogue who has to stealth and retreat all the time because he can't hang in extended battle.  Certainly more efficient from a resources standpoint.

  Not to mention having the option to cast any of a number of powerful spells as well, should you opt to, definitely makes an AW the most value you could possibly pack into a single party slot, so it is efficient in this regard as well.

And after level 16, when Combat Magic becomes fully featured, the AW is no Longer "chipping away".   Certainly not as damaging as a min/maxed dedicated melee DPS-er, but with a 20-25 Dex, a 45+ Mag, with Misama Flaming and TK weaps, my slotted Sword and dagger AW easily did more damage than 2H Oghren or  Sword and Board Allistair, and was far less fragile than either of those, even when not running Shimmering Shield. 

Well it is efficient when it comes to not using potions I suppose. Or at least it is until the fix the shimmering bug and there goes that. In either case, there is need to worry about supplies in this game.

Pure mages that stack spell power do more damage. Dual Wield warriors can draw aggro and do more damage. Rogues hardly need to fade away and relocate during a battle, and also do more damage. And compared to all of these, you are chipping away. Of course you are doing more than Alistiar and Oghren, they are both specced as some of the worst builds in the game.

Arcane Warriors are great if you want to solo the game though, due to the survivability, but they hardly maximizing the potential of your party.

But there is nothing efficient about wasting a mage by turning him into a melee tank that can't hold agrro and barely does more damage than sword+board warriors while you could be blasting things away into little bits like a proper mage.

I really never had problems drawing aggro after casting inferno on a room  and wading in slightly ahead of the party, catching everyone in miasma. If running shimmering shield, you can also walk right into the inferno.  I let my party pick off the stragglers. 

Again, Im not singing the praises of Arcane Warrior...it completely ruined the challenge/appeal of the game.  I agree, this is the sort of character that is only really fun if you're trying to solo.

As far as comparing to Oghren and Alistair, who else should I be comparing to? These are the companions you have...you cant compare one built from scratch min/maxed player character to another...they would never occupy the same party unless you are cheating. You can make Zevran into an effective DPS cunning rogue, but theres no way he doesnt have to hit and fade, because he cant hang in toe to toe fights. My dex based defensive rogue can't hang either yet, with a 40+ Dex and Dueling and Wardens armor halfway through the game, and high DPS cunning rogues never get that high of a dex..at least nowhere near the "unhittable" range. If they get more than a few people on them at once, or there are a lot of mages or archers, they have to stealth and fade often, requiring a lot of Micromanagement.

Besides, if you start comparing every character in the game to super optimized, expertly min/maxed characters it's kind of missing the point. The point is an AW is relatively easy to understand and spec out, and make much more durable that the sorts of characters most people are likely to ever experience in the game. And theres no way having a party slot occupied by someone who can cast Blizzard or Blood Wound, or Force Field, or cone of cold, or become an unkillable warrior as the case may be, capable of going toe to toe with swarms of melee enemies or the most powerful creatures in the game without a whole lot of babysitting, is not an efficient and valuable party slot.

Modifié par Spyndel, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[Jinnth]

Spyndel wrote...

I really never had problems drawing aggro after casting inferno on a room  and wading in slightly ahead of the party, catching everyone in miasma. If running shimmering shield, you can also walk right into the inferno.  I let my party pick off the stragglers. 

Again, Im not singing the praises of Arcane Warrior...it completely ruined the challenge/appeal of the game.  I agree, this is the sort of character that is only really fun if you're trying to solo.

As far as comparing to Oghren and Alistair, who else should I be comparing to? These are the companions you have...you cant compare one built from scratch min/maxed player character to another...they would never occupy the same party unless you are cheating. You can make Zevran into an effective DPS cunning rogue, but theres no way he doesnt have to hit and fade, because he cant hang in toe to toe fights. My dex based defensive rogue can't hang either yet, with a 40+ Dex and Dueling and Wardens armor halfway through the game, and high DPS cunning rogues never get that high of a dex..at least nowhere near the "unhittable" range. If they get more than a few people on them at once, or there are a lot of mages or archers, they have to stealth and fade often, requiring a lot of Micromanagement.

Besides, if you start comparing every character in the game to super optimized, expertly min/maxed characters it's kind of missing the point. The point is an AW is relatively easy to understand and spec out, and make much more durable that the sorts of characters most people are likely to every experience in the game. And theres no way having a party slot occupied by someone who can cast Blizzard or Blood Wound, or Force Field, or cone of cold, or become an unkillable warrior as the case may be, capable of going toe to toe with swarms of melee enemies or the most powerful creatures in the game without a whole lot of babysitting, is not an efficient and valuable party slot.

Well actually thats not the point, the thing is, if played by a good player, would a team with an arcane warrior(either in a main tank role or not) do better (less deaths, better control over the battle, faster dispatching of enemy groups, and so on) than a group that doesn't use it (I don't care if it's "easier to use" and stuff like that). Of course we are talking about non-AW groups such as tank/rogue/2 mages or tank/ 3 mages.

I do not think AW has any use in a well-played maximized team as a caster as your tank coupled with your CCs and heals should negate any need for extra survivability for your mages making just about any spell a better investment than something giving you more survivability. So now the thing is, could it be a tank, in this case we are comparing a AW/rogue/2mages to the 2 teams mentioned above. And people give arguments on which one would be the best.

I think it is ok to compare to player made characters as an AW/BM has no other choice but to be a player made character anyway.

Also you have to take into account that not all encounter are a group of enemies waiting away from you to be attacked or in another room, the thoughest fights are usually scripted with you being surrounded/flanked or very close to the enemy right from the start.

Modifié par Jinnth, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:42 .

[Spyndel]

Jinnth wrote...

Well actually thats not the point, the thing is, if played by a good player, would a team with an arcane warrior(either in a main tank role or not) do better (less deaths, better control over the battle, faster dispatching of enemy groups, and so on) than a group that doesn't use it (I don't care if it's "easier to use" and stuff like that). Of course we are talking about non-AW groups such as tank/rogue/2 mages or tank/ 3 mages.

How can you not have fewer deaths with a character capable of soloing the vast majority of the battle by himself without dying?  Now add in the AWs ability to switch gears on the fly and control or support for the rest of the team, via any of the wildly valuable mage talents?  Or heal, for that matter.


I dont think anyone is suggesting the AW deliberately take on the offical tank role, because youre right, he has no direct means of controlling aggro.  The point is , the AW *ends up* doing most of the tanking just for their obscene ability to debuff , control, and soak damage, and the aggro management never ends up being that big of a deal.  During my AW playthough, I spent a lot of my time bottling up the other supposed "tanks" I was supposed to have in the game with Force Feild, because they just couldnt hang in the melee like I could.

If you are measuring everything in a strict *damage per second* sense,...how fast you can possibly dispatch any single encounter, then yes, it is not as "efficient" as some.  But then, you are also writing off a party, for instance, that is built around a *control* mage, that lets sub optimal melee fighters prevail by lokcing down foes, dividing and conquering, and slowing down the battle...which franky, is going to have a better chance to handle tougher battles and tougher difficulties than a party bullt around pure offense.

My AW group didn't blaze through battles in seconds.  We just leisurely slept-walked thorugh the entire game, yawning.

[edit] Ill just add in, I'm comparing only to the other "tanks" availiable to you in the game. You could certainly build an even more effective tank from scratch, but I dont *think* you could make one of the canned NPCs into one without cheating.  And even the one you build, wont also have the ability to cast blizzrd/force firls, cone of cold, heal, group heal, miasma, flamign weapons etc, etc, etc

Modifié par Spyndel, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:52 .

[GilgameshXD]

Spyndel wrote...

I really never had problems drawing aggro after casting inferno on a room  and wading in slightly ahead of the party, catching everyone in miasma. If running shimmering shield, you can also walk right into the inferno.  I let my party pick off the stragglers. 

Again, Im not singing the praises of Arcane Warrior...it completely ruined the challenge/appeal of the game.  I agree, this is the sort of character that is only really fun if you're trying to solo.

As far as comparing to Oghren and Alistair, who else should I be comparing to? These are the companions you have...you cant compare one built from scratch min/maxed player character to another...they would never occupy the same party unless you are cheating. You can make Zevran into an effective DPS cunning rogue, but theres no way he doesnt have to hit and fade, because he cant hang in toe to toe fights. My dex based defensive rogue can't hang either yet, with a 40+ Dex and Dueling and Wardens armor halfway through the game, and high DPS cunning rogues never get that high of a dex..at least nowhere near the "unhittable" range. If they get more than a few people on them at once, or there are a lot of mages or archers, they have to stealth and fade often, requiring a lot of Micromanagement.

Besides, if you start comparing every character in the game to super optimized, expertly min/maxed characters it's kind of missing the point. The point is an AW is relatively easy to understand and spec out, and make much more durable that the sorts of characters most people are likely to ever experience in the game. And theres no way having a party slot occupied by someone who can cast Blizzard or Blood Wound, or Force Field, or cone of cold, or become an unkillable warrior as the case may be, capable of going toe to toe with swarms of melee enemies or the most powerful creatures in the game without a whole lot of babysitting, is not an efficient and valuable party slot.

No one has problems drawing aggor, but without taunt you can't get it off others.

Well Oghren is kind of scrwed but Alistiar you get early enough to turn into a dual wielder, which will make him far more capable of doing damage. Zev or rogues in general have no reason to hit and fade, there is no reason for them to be drawin aggro of entire groups on their own. Also, a high enough defense will make you pretty much unhittable (not that this has any bearing on anything).

I got nothing to say on micromangment, I turn off all tactics and micro everything myself anyway, anything else would bore me to death.

In any case,  Jinnth got it right. Arcane warriors are great on their own, but in a party they contribute little and have no real place nor need because others do it better.

[Jinnth]

Spyndel wrote...

How can you not have fewer deaths with a character capable of soloing the vast majority of the battle by himself without dying?  Now add in the AWs ability to switch gears on the fly and control or support for the rest of the team, via any of the wildly valuable mage talents?  Or heal, for that matter.

How can I have fewer deaths ? By having a tank protect the other party members, yes 1 character is tough, but the others maybe aren't. A dead rogue does 0 dps (heh thats from WoW)

The ability to change gears is always interesting, but is it needed, maybe. Actually it's the only thing that get's me wondering. But scarificing 4 spell points and a specialization for something you might actually never use is pointless. Not to mention, that , yeah maybe if you are flaked and can't CC the flanked side efficiently you migth need another tank, but would tanking be more useful than just throwing a group heal.

Spyndel wrote...
I dont think anyone is suggesting the AW deliberately take on the offical tank role, because youre right, he has no direct means of controlling aggro.  The point is , the AW *ends up* doing most of the tanking just for their obscene ability to debuff , control, and soak damage, and the aggro management never ends up being that big of a deal.  During my AW playthough, I spent a lot of my time bottling up the other supposed "tanks" I was supposed to have in the game with Force Feild, because they just couldnt hang in the melee like I could.

I never forcefielded my tank and I am on my second nigthmare playtrough, my tank has never been undable to take any monster toe to toe so for that part I disagree. I know for sure that alistair, who starts with a decent base build, is able to become good enough to stand toe to toe against any boss too.

Spyndel wrote...
If you are measuring everything in a strict *damage per second* sense,...how fast you can possibly dispatch any single encounter, then yes, it is not as "efficient" as some.  But then, you are also writing off a party, for instance, that is built around a *control* mage, that lets sub optimal melee fighters prevail by lokcing down foes, dividing and conquering, and slowing down the battle...which franky, is going to have a better chance to handle tougher battles and tougher difficulties than a party bullt around pure offense.

My AW group didn't blaze through battles in seconds.  We just leisurely slept-walked thorugh the entire game, yawning.

Well, keep in mind that having an AW in your team means that it takes up a pure mage slot, meaning that a non-AW team would have just as much CC capability. Also this dicussion is only about nightmare (as I never played any other difficulty).

Well you know in some way what makes a team "better" is the ability to do the same thing, just as safely but faster, so if I can keep everyone alive just as good but kill the enemies faster, than I think it is indeed more effective.

Modifié par Jinnth, 23 novembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[Spyndel]

GilgameshXD wrote...

No one has problems drawing aggor, but without taunt you can't get it off others.

Who needs taunt when you've got Force field?  If you can't get to someone to kill their attacker soon enough, you just switch gears a bit and throw out some control magic.  Later on in the game you just run up and kill the attacker.   This whole aggro management issue is being overstated. Its not that big of a deal if you are controlling your characters.

GilgameshXD wrote...

Well Oghren is kind of scrwed but Alistiar you get early enough to turn into a dual wielder, which will make him far more capable of doing damage. Zev or rogues in general have no reason to hit and fade, there is no reason for them to be drawin aggro of entire groups on their own. Also, a high enough defense will make you pretty much unhittable (not that this has any bearing on anything).

Alistair is then doing dmage, but not really tanking.  And even if he was tanking, he cant survive like an AW.  If you pump his DEx, he is not noing damage, and you probably couldnt pump it high enough to really get into the unhittable range.

An extremely high defense *will* make you unhittable.  This is certainly the way to go on higher difficulties. But it does nothing for magic damage or when you are incapacitated.  Like I said, you can build a better tank from scratch as a PC, but Im not sure you can make one of the NPC tanks into one that is better.  And then if you do, they cant also cast Blizzard,Blood Wound, CoC, FF, etc etc

GilgameshXD wrote...

In any case,  Jinnth got it right. Arcane warriors are great on their own, but in a party they contribute little and have no real place nor need because others do it better.

In my AW playthough, with Morrigan (SH),  Zevran (ASN/Duel), and Allistair (CH/Temp) who was replaced by Ogren when it became clear I didnt need a tank, I was the top damage dealer.  Zevran had higher single target dps potentiaI, but required too much babysitting to keep alive and flanking all the time. I went toe to toe with Ogres and Dragons keeping them busy why the party ranged or flanked.  In room with huge swarms of enemeies I cast Inferno and Blood wound on top of Morrigans Blizzard.  Anything still standing was easily dispatched.  When a teamate got into trouble I bottled them up with FF, or cast an area control spell (or just killed their attacker with a sword and my supposedly *meager* damage). 

To say you can build a player character that would do any single one of those things somewhat better is accurate.  To say they have little to contribute is absurd.   It also assumes there is only one viable way to make a party, which is equally absurd.

[Jinnth]

Well being the top damage dealer for a PC doesn't mean much. My pure tank has 40% of my party's damage, and I kept the same team for the whole game. It is a bad way to compare damage.

Modifié par Jinnth, 23 novembre 2009 - 01:33 .

[pinzig]

er, like, no one is forcing you to play an AW, so. stop complaining?

... my two cents.

[Jinnth]

pinzig wrote...

er, like, no one is forcing you to play an AW, so. stop complaining?
... my two cents.

This is called theory crafting, it is a good way to get better at games. We explore different possible "top" party compositions and compare how they would fare in your average tough encounter, what are their strenght/weaknesses and why some are better than other.

Modifié par Jinnth, 23 novembre 2009 - 01:41 .