228 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Considering the multitude of threads complaining about how Bioware is pushing certain groups to seem better/worse than they actually are, is this also the case for the chantry? They make Meredith incompetent, make Elthina ineffectual, have them harbor mad zealots, have them endorse the conquest and further occupation of Ferelden, force all elves to live either on the run or as second class citizens, lobotimize people because they're dangerous, plan exalted marches on the drop of a hat and so forth.

I'm sure there are many and more things people would like to bring up here, so let's have it. How is bioware making the chantry look bad?

[esper]

I would say they are prettifiyng the chantry. (Ie. Cassandra and Leliana). But then again I think that the Chantry always have been an 'evil' organisation and properly will be as long as they view their Andrastian faith the way the view them now.
(Buy the way, I am anti-chantry, if you couldn't tell;-))

[TEWR]

I hated the Chantry in Origins and thought they were incompetent then, so nothing's really changed.

[Bayz]

Is Bioware pushing threads like this?

You do need to remember the Chantry is a huge, international (everywhere but Orlais) organization, much bigger than the other international organizations we see, namely the Grey Wardens AFAIK.

Meredith wasn't incompetent as she retained, and probalby even increased, her authority in Kirkwall, she was just blindly fanatic, and it went downhill when she received certain "gift"...

Elthina in my book is not ineffectual at all. In fact it was her death the one event that triggered the fights in the streets, when she was around she seem to do just fine keeping the bloodshed to a minimun, that despite the people she has to deal with everyday.

They don't seem to endorse the conquest and fully occupation of Ferelden, they just can't oppose the Orlesian Empress as they actually live in her soil, and with the habit many Orlesian nobles have with the Cloak & Dagger business...

Well Andraste helped free them in the first place but we are discussing the Orleasian Chantry, no? While they sent an exalted march against them it doesn't seem to me that their objective was to enslave them, but just to convert them. On the other hand, the elves live on lands of men now who, independently of the chantry views on elves, would like to still see elves as slaves. Not the Chantry's fault IMO.

They lobotomize people who actually end up being portals of demons into the world...so yes they do, no I don't think we would do any better than lobotomize them, we would probably had exterminated them by this time. They have a reason for it

The exalted Marches seem to be quite of a problem though, but you need to keep in mind that it is not as if the rest of the people are just peace loving guys awaiting the next evil crusade to reach their farms.

[Arthur Cousland]

With all of the similar threads and the various polls popping up everywhere it does make you wonder if someone is pushing them.

Yes, Meredith went crazy after her purchase, and Tahrone didn't help things either. Too bad Tahrone didn't get more face time, as she definitely seemed to succeed in driving Meredith crazy and could have been a symbol for templar sympathy.

[whykikyouwhy]

I think that with what we know of the overall story thus far, Bioware has given us pause regarding the Chantry, but more in the sense of saying that there may be some figurative rotten apples in the barrel - there's the potential for everything to be ruined if those pockets of "bad" aren't addressed. It's really the case with most large organizations, religious in origin or otherwise. They're created for a certain purpose or from a certain viewpoint, but as they grow, so does the potential for corruption.

The Chantry is just one example of how power (which it has) can be tempting, and how those that seek such power could potentially abuse it, and on a grand scale.

I think that as the story of the DA-verse evolves, we'll see both good and bad in the Chantry, the Circle, the various thrones, etc. I don't think there's any outright vilification though - after all, we still have yet to see if certain prophecies about magic come true, and that will change the playing field for everyone/everything. Who's to say that will be a good thing. The Chantry (or members of it) may turn out to be what stands between the mortals and a great evil.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

I would say they are prettifiyng the chantry. (Ie. Cassandra and Leliana). But then again I think that the Chantry always have been an 'evil' organisation and properly will be as long as they view their Andrastian faith the way the view them now.
(Buy the way, I am anti-chantry, if you couldn't tell;-))

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste, either. And Leliana and Cassandra aren't doing much in changing my mind about the Chantry, especially Leliana's comments as 'Sister Nightingale.'

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

I would say they are prettifiyng the chantry. (Ie. Cassandra and Leliana). But then again I think that the Chantry always have been an 'evil' organisation and properly will be as long as they view their Andrastian faith the way the view them now.
(Buy the way, I am anti-chantry, if you couldn't tell;-))

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste, either. And Leliana and Cassandra aren't doing much in changing my mind about the Chantry, especially Leliana's comments as 'Sister Nightingale.'

I am just afraid that we are forced to play Seeker in Da3. It is my greastest da fear.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

I would say they are prettifiyng the chantry. (Ie. Cassandra and Leliana). But then again I think that the Chantry always have been an 'evil' organisation and properly will be as long as they view their Andrastian faith the way the view them now.
(Buy the way, I am anti-chantry, if you couldn't tell;-))

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste, either. And Leliana and Cassandra aren't doing much in changing my mind about the Chantry, especially Leliana's comments as 'Sister Nightingale.'

I am just afraid that we are forced to play Seeker in Da3. It is my greastest da fear.

I have no intention of purchasing any game where I'm going to be railroaded into being a Seeker or pro-Chantry. The entire reason I purchased Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 was to have choices, and if choices are going to be removed, there's no reason to waste my time or money on future Dragon Age games.

[Addai]

Everybody is insane and/or incompetent in DA2.

If anything, I think they were pushing the idea of mages being dangerous.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Bayz wrote...

Is Bioware pushing threads like this?

You do need to remember the Chantry is a huge, international (everywhere but Orlais) organization, much bigger than the other international organizations we see, namely the Grey Wardens AFAIK.

The White Divine branch of the Chantry has it's headquarters in Orlais.

[Herr Uhl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think that with what we know of the overall story thus far, Bioware has given us pause regarding the Chantry, but more in the sense of saying that there may be some figurative rotten apples in the barrel - there's the potential for everything to be ruined if those pockets of "bad" aren't addressed. It's really the case with most large organizations, religious in origin or otherwise. They're created for a certain purpose or from a certain viewpoint, but as they grow, so does the potential for corruption.

The Chantry is just one example of how power (which it has) can be tempting, and how those that seek such power could potentially abuse it, and on a grand scale.

I think that as the story of the DA-verse evolves, we'll see both good and bad in the Chantry, the Circle, the various thrones, etc. I don't think there's any outright vilification though - after all, we still have yet to see if certain prophecies about magic come true, and that will change the playing field for everyone/everything. Who's to say that will be a good thing. The Chantry (or members of it) may turn out to be what stands between the mortals and a great evil.

I'm largely indifferent on the chantry, it can be improved, but removing it wholesale would have dire consequences on an international level. I'm just wondering if this is an unjust portrayal, as we so often hear when there are other groups behaving oddly. The Dalish in DA2, Loghain, Orsino, mages in general in DA2 etc. You keep hearing that they're not being as they should, is the chantry one of the few things that are actually shown as is?

And the prophecy would be catastrophic to the whole setting imo.

Addai67 wrote...

Everybody is insane and/or incompetent in DA2.

If anything, I think they were pushing the idea of mages being dangerous.

You might notice the bringing up of the Fereldan occupation, lobotomizing, march planning and the Elvish curbing. 

None of these are DA2 related.

[Addai]

In the case of Ferelden's occupation, the Chantry was no more or less corrupt than the nobles who supported whichever side was politically convenient. You also had the positive example of Mother Ailis. I do think the idea of an Exalted March is kind of a stereotyped Crusade motif, but maybe we will find out that the elves were more at fault for their own demise than the Chantry. There are hints to that effect.

I think it's hard to present a religious organization in a realistic light without resorting to trope and stereotype, and in Origins they did a decent job of this. Much better than your average movie, in which we know the priest is going to be either dumb and ineffectual or outright evil. In DA2 I think they tried, but it was less successful. Elthina and Sebastian, I think, are meant to represent basically good people trying to live out a moderate Andrastianism. Unfortunately they're burdened by on the one hand a vacant incompetence and on the other, dippy naivete, so they don't really help the view of the Chantry much, and go back to that stereotype of ineffectual simpleton. Cassandra has a better chance at being an effective Andrastian protagonist.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I think that with what we know of the overall story thus far, Bioware has given us pause regarding the Chantry, but more in the sense of saying that there may be some figurative rotten apples in the barrel - there's the potential for everything to be ruined if those pockets of "bad" aren't addressed. It's really the case with most large organizations, religious in origin or otherwise. They're created for a certain purpose or from a certain viewpoint, but as they grow, so does the potential for corruption.

The Chantry is just one example of how power (which it has) can be tempting, and how those that seek such power could potentially abuse it, and on a grand scale.

I think that as the story of the DA-verse evolves, we'll see both good and bad in the Chantry, the Circle, the various thrones, etc. I don't think there's any outright vilification though - after all, we still have yet to see if certain prophecies about magic come true, and that will change the playing field for everyone/everything. Who's to say that will be a good thing. The Chantry (or members of it) may turn out to be what stands between the mortals and a great evil.

I hope you're right.  As much as I can't stand the templars in particular, it'd be nice to have a story where the faithful aren't portrayed as drooling savages.

I even have hopes that the templars can be reformed into something to be proud of.  Perhaps they can go back to being the great monster hunters of old that they were before joining the Chantry.  It'd be something they could be proud of.  You get a flash of that when Meredith makes her entrance in Act 2 and takes out the Saarebas that ambushed Hawke.

[hoorayforicecream]

jamesp81 wrote...

I hope you're right.  As much as I can't stand the templars in particular, it'd be nice to have a story where the faithful aren't portrayed as drooling savages.

There are a few. Remember Redcliffe in DAO? Where did all the ordinary townsfolk seek protection? The Chantry. Orphans? The Chantry takes them in. Thrask was a pretty reasonable guy, but he trusted the wrong mage and got killed for it. The Chantry takes in the poor and sick (if you don't make Orana your servant in DA2, Leandra says she gets sent to the Chantry). 

It's a big organization, and there are bound to be bad eggs in its entirety, but at the same time, there are also good people. A lot of people would like to ignore this fact and demonize the entire thing.

[The dead fish]

The chantry is above all a power, political, religious, and militarized, a power over all Thedas. Obviously we'll more focus about what implies its power and consequences for the script, that the priests peaceful, the harmless believers who come everyday to pray, the kind persons who help people.

An institution that has power over many things, obviously has many dimensions. And in a chaotic universe, the concentration will be primarily on what is ambiguous or source of crystallization for the progress of the story;

But that does not mean that good deeds do not exist, and there are indications in the games. This is for players to notice them. When the chantry and the Templars are still present in Lothering, the last defense, while noble and the ban and the soldiers abandoned the land, it is proof that the chantry is not the caricature that many want to make of it because they do not like religion, either because they are pro-mages.

Mother Hannah, in Redcliffe, who are so nice and want to help her people so desesperate. It indicates that there are many people in the chantry who are nice or can be in all Thedas. But the story must move forward, these elements are minor compared to those which implies the power, politics, etc, ( much more interesting for the story, ) and must be separated from social and human considerations.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

I would say they are prettifiyng the chantry. (Ie. Cassandra and Leliana). But then again I think that the Chantry always have been an 'evil' organisation and properly will be as long as they view their Andrastian faith the way the view them now.
(Buy the way, I am anti-chantry, if you couldn't tell;-))

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste, either. And Leliana and Cassandra aren't doing much in changing my mind about the Chantry, especially Leliana's comments as 'Sister Nightingale.'

I am just afraid that we are forced to play Seeker in Da3. It is my greastest da fear.

I have no intention of purchasing any game where I'm going to be railroaded into being a Seeker or pro-Chantry. The entire reason I purchased Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 was to have choices, and if choices are going to be removed, there's no reason to waste my time or money on future Dragon Age games.

Exactly how do you come to the conclusion that if you play as a Seeker, that you will be incapable of choice?

[dragonflight288]

One thing I like to remember about the Chantry is that it was just one of many Andrastian cults after her death. This one just happened to get support from an Orlesian Emperor. Their ideas and interpretations can be completely wrong, and no one know it because they had 1000 years to build up how important their religion is.

When I play anyone who isn't Dalish or Dwarven, they are Andrastian, but not necessarily believers of the Chantry.

[Brockololly]

Thats my problem with DA overall right now is that with organizations like the Chantry or Templars or the Mages, everyone comes across as not only painfully idiotic but mostly just plain unlikeable with characters either being total **** or totally oblivious. There aren't characters who are shades of gray- on one hand doing something perceived as "good" while later doing something perhaps morally questionable.

They need to give these factions a sort of signature character that isn't a total doofus and doesn't magically turn into a maniacal villain but has a bit of good and bad within them- like Iorveth or Roche in TW2 or even Loghain in Origins to an extent. Simply making every faction look like incompetent ****s doesn't really make me want to give a crap about them or anything they're involved in.

[Bigdoser]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I hated the Chantry in Origins and thought they were incompetent then, so nothing's really changed.

Yup

[AlexXIV]

I think they are trying to point out the benefits and downsides of every faction. It just isn't really easy to balance them in order to make the choice ambigious. Obviously it resulted in a sort of 'crazy people everywhere' thing. Which probably wasn't the intention. I think to create 'dark' characters like Loghain who actually split the community isn't easy. I mean despite all the bad things he did there is a person below the surface. You can't say that about the DA2 lunatics. For example I couldn't tell what exactly made Meredith tick ... or go nuts.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 novembre 2011 - 07:25 .

[Raging Nug]

Like I said in the Qunari counterpart to this thread, it depends on your own prejudices. The Chantry certainly mirrors the militaristic and more racist aspects of Christian history, or more broadly, our religions on a whole.

I didn't like the Chantry to begin with, but that's just my own prejudice.

[Heimdall]

Not a big fan of the chantry, though I don't really have a problem with the Chant and the Andrastrian faith. I do hope the distinction is borne in mind.

[Bayz]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Is Bioware pushing threads like this?

You do need to remember the Chantry is a huge, international (everywhere but Orlais) organization, much bigger than the other international organizations we see, namely the Grey Wardens AFAIK.

The White Divine branch of the Chantry has it's headquarters in Orlais.

That's what I meant. For every nation in Thedas it is an "international" organization, but in Orlais it is national as it seems to be an Orlesian organization.

Obviously I am excluding The Qunari lands, Tevinter Imperium and Riviain (sp?)

[Bayz]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Is Bioware pushing threads like this?

You do need to remember the Chantry is a huge, international (everywhere but Orlais) organization, much bigger than the other international organizations we see, namely the Grey Wardens AFAIK.

The White Divine branch of the Chantry has it's headquarters in Orlais.

That's what I meant. For every nation in Thedas it is an "international" organization, but in Orlais it is national as it seems to be an Orlesian organization.

Obviously I am excluding The Qunari lands, Tevinter Imperium and Riviain (sp?)

Raging Nug wrote...

Like I said in the Qunari counterpart
to this thread, it depends on your own prejudices.

This +1

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:35 .