228 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Taking the two games as a whole, I find the Chantry members to be nicely diverse.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry was always a vehicle for the advancement of evil. This is admittedly better than the Templar Order, which simply is evil. But it seems to be built into how it is, so I don't think DA2 made it worse.

[The dead fish]

Wulfram wrote...

Taking the two games as a whole, I find the Chantry members to be nicely diverse.

Agreed. And I hope we'll see more diversity, like Petrice and others that won't follow exactly  the direction of the chantry. ( for those who didn't kill her )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 08:59 .

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

Taking the two games as a whole, I find the Chantry members to be nicely diverse.

I don't doubt that the members of the organisation are diverse, because they are. But the organisation is evil or as other has said tyraniccal.

[Malanek]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Considering the multitude of threads complaining about how Bioware is pushing certain groups to seem better/worse than they actually are, is this also the case for the chantry? They make Meredith incompetent, make Elthina ineffectual, have them harbor mad zealots, have them endorse the conquest and further occupation of Ferelden, force all elves to live either on the run or as second class citizens, lobotimize people because they're dangerous, plan exalted marches on the drop of a hat and so forth.

I'm sure there are many and more things people would like to bring up here, so let's have it. How is bioware making the chantry look bad?

Merideth was not incompetent. She was overly prideful and misguided and filled with prejudice. This was further stretched as she was corrupted by the raw lyrium.

Elthina was the furthest from being a villain out of all the characters in the game. She was no ineffectual than any other character. She saw through multiple ploys and refused to support either side which was ultimately correct. But even if she was ineffectual that does not make her a villain.

I don't think Sister Patrice (if that is the mad zealot who you are referring to) was mad. She made calculated ploys to manipulate events to turn the public sentiment against the Qunari. I actually think an option to work with her would have been pretty cool because one thing I didn't like about the story is how little avenue we were given to disaprove of the Qunari occupation. Anyway, Patrice was a coniving character who I thought was well written.

However overall, yes, the Chantry is cast as a villain in some situations. It does some good stuff and some bad stuff. Which is what I would expect, and in fact mimics various religious groups in real life.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

I would say they are prettifiyng the chantry. (Ie. Cassandra and Leliana). But then again I think that the Chantry always have been an 'evil' organisation and properly will be as long as they view their Andrastian faith the way the view them now.
(Buy the way, I am anti-chantry, if you couldn't tell;-))

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste, either. And Leliana and Cassandra aren't doing much in changing my mind about the Chantry, especially Leliana's comments as 'Sister Nightingale.'

I am just afraid that we are forced to play Seeker in Da3. It is my greastest da fear.

I have no intention of purchasing any game where I'm going to be railroaded into being a Seeker or pro-Chantry. The entire reason I purchased Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 was to have choices, and if choices are going to be removed, there's no reason to waste my time or money on future Dragon Age games.

Exactly how do you come to the conclusion that if you play as a Seeker, that you will be incapable of choice?

I hope that if you are forced to be a Seeker you can still turn against the Chantry from within, personally. But I will rather not be a seeker.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Generally I'd say no they aren't. But many players are extremely keep to imagine them as such anyway.

[The dead fish]

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taking the two games as a whole, I find the Chantry members to be nicely diverse.

I don't doubt that the members of the organisation are diverse, because they are. But the organisation is evil or as other has said tyraniccal.

Its power is not tyrannical , except maybe in Kirkwall, where the Templars have the true power. Kings, kingdoms may rebel against its authority, they aren't forced to obey. The mad king at Ferelden even forced Mother I don't remember what is her name " to claim that the king Marric was a son of demons. Her own life was in danger. The authority of the chantry is not based on force and fear it sows.

The chantry is supported.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry is influential throughout Thedas but doesn't have direct authority over anywhere. Not even Orlais. They don't really have as much power as a lot of people seem to think they do. Most aspects of day to day life everywhere in the world are still governed by local governments.

[The dead fish]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Chantry is influential throughout Thedas but doesn't have direct authority over anywhere. Not even Orlais. They don't really have as much power as a lot of people seem to think they do. Most aspects of day to day life everywhere in the world are still governed by local governments.

Exactly. Even Orlais could threat the chantry, and the Chantry would not dare at all to make it an enemy.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:21 .

[Malanek]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Chantry is influential throughout Thedas but doesn't have direct authority over anywhere. Not even Orlais. They don't really have as much power as a lot of people seem to think they do. Most aspects of day to day life everywhere in the world are still governed by local governments.

They have power over people by being able to manipulate and direct their actions through their faith. They are argueably more powerful than any king or empress, but it is a situational thing.

Modifié par Malanek999, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:37 .

[esper]

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taking the two games as a whole, I find the Chantry members to be nicely diverse.

I don't doubt that the members of the organisation are diverse, because they are. But the organisation is evil or as other has said tyraniccal.

Its power is not tyrannical , except maybe in Kirkwall, where the Templars have the true power. Kings, kingdoms may rebel against its authority, they aren't forced to obey. The mad king at Ferelden even forced Mother I don't remember what is name " to claim that the king Marric was a son of demons. Her own life was in danger. The authority of the chantry is not based on force and fear it sows.

The chantry is supported.

The chantry is as an organisation too thickly tied with Orlais which is an empire with the stated wish to expand their territory. Also they had three military branches (now it is down to 1, so far as we know) and the line in their chant which says that 'the chant must be song from all four corner of the world'.
Also they are to blame for the gettoization of the elves and overly cruel treatment of the mages.  As an organisation the chantry needs to be de-militarised and removed from Orlais before I will stop seeing is as tyranicall.

[Bayz]

But the Chantry has "Sister Gorgeous", that hot lady that asked the evil merchant not to do business with the people of Lothering...with a voice like poetry

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

esper wrote...

The chantry is as an organisation too thickly tied with Orlais which is an empire with the stated wish to expand their territory. Also they had three military branches (now it is down to 1, so far as we know) and the line in their chant which says that 'the chant must be song from all four corner of the world'.
Also they are to blame for the gettoization of the elves and overly cruel treatment of the mages.  As an organisation the chantry needs to be de-militarised and removed from Orlais before I will stop seeing is as tyranicall.

The Chantry is not responsible for the alienages. Those are the responsiblity of human societies in general which are pervasivly racist for non relgious reasons. Secondly while the ties between Chantry leadership and Orlais are undeniable, they are not one and the same. Andrastianism is the dominant relgion in almost every country in the known world, that doesn't mean that is has caused them all to become loyal to Orlais. Also,  just because the Chantry has the desire to spread it's message doesn't make it tyranical. Exalted Marches have never been used soley to spread the Chant.

[The dead fish]

esper wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taking the two games as a whole, I find the Chantry members to be nicely diverse.

I don't doubt that the members of the organisation are diverse, because they are. But the organisation is evil or as other has said tyraniccal.

Its power is not tyrannical , except maybe in Kirkwall, where the Templars have the true power. Kings, kingdoms may rebel against its authority, they aren't forced to obey. The mad king at Ferelden even forced Mother I don't remember what is name " to claim that the king Marric was a son of demons. Her own life was in danger. The authority of the chantry is not based on force and fear it sows.

The chantry is supported.

The chantry is as an organisation too thickly tied with Orlais which is an empire with the stated wish to expand their territory. Also they had three military branches (now it is down to 1, so far as we know) and the line in their chant which says that 'the chant must be song from all four corner of the world'.
Also they are to blame for the gettoization of the elves and overly cruel treatment of the mages.  As an organisation the chantry needs to be de-militarised and removed from Orlais before I will stop seeing is as tyranicall.

 A tyranny is based on of fear and force, and is not at all supported. The chantry is supported, listened, loved, respected. Except the mages as well.  Being powerful and being militarized does not equal tyranny.

And as a pro-elf fanatic myself , I absolutely do not agree with you. The chantry is not responsible at all for gettoization of the elves. That is an attempt to divert the human societies, nobles and the kings of their responsibilities. If the elves are treated so badly, that's because of humans people, and their prejudices, that's because of societies, nobles and  kings. They could totally change their politics and the chantry wouldn't be a problem at all. Like Allistair when he becomes king.

As the organization year chantry Needs to Be de-militarised and removed from Orlais Before I Will Stop Seeing is as tyranicall.

No problem with that. But what is the problem if the chantry remains in Orlais ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:39 .

[Bayz]

Sylvianus wrote...
And as a pro-elf fanatic myself , I absolutely do not agree with you. The chantry is not responsible at all for gettoization of the elves. That is an attempt to divert the human societies, nobles and the kings of their responsibilities. If the elves are treated so badly, that's because of humans people, and their prejudices, that's because of societies, nobles and  kings. They could totally change their politics and the chantry wouldn't be a problem at all. Like Allistair when he becomes king.

As the organization year chantry Needs to Be de-militarised and removed from Orlais Before I Will Stop Seeing is as tyranicall.

No problem with that. But what is the problem if the chantry remains in Orlais ?

You are roleplaying your avatar aren't you? 

I agree because I don't see anywhere that the Chantry said "Let's destroy the Dales and take the elves as second class citizens living in Alienages and...", it seems to me like they only thought on converting them. The rest is more a result of what the "noble and valiant" crusaders considered to do than what the Divine might have actually desired.

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:43 .

[esper]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

esper wrote...

The chantry is as an organisation too thickly tied with Orlais which is an empire with the stated wish to expand their territory. Also they had three military branches (now it is down to 1, so far as we know) and the line in their chant which says that 'the chant must be song from all four corner of the world'.
Also they are to blame for the gettoization of the elves and overly cruel treatment of the mages.  As an organisation the chantry needs to be de-militarised and removed from Orlais before I will stop seeing is as tyranicall.

The Chantry is not responsible for the alienages. Those are the responsiblity of human societies in general which are pervasivly racist for non relgious reasons. Secondly while the ties between Chantry leadership and Orlais are undeniable, they are not one and the same. Andrastianism is the dominant relgion in almost every country in the known world, that doesn't mean that is has caused them all to become loyal to Orlais. Also,  just because the Chantry has the desire to spread it's message doesn't make it tyranical. Exalted Marches have never been used soley to spread the Chant.

It was the chantry-supported armies that razed Dales to the ground. I don't really care who started, I see the dalish elves to be prideful enough to actually kill the missoneries send in. But the chantry supported army completely destroyed the homeland of the elves and forced them to abonded their faith and live in getthoes. That is a crime I cannot forgive and it happened because the chantry was involved in the fighting and the war stopped being soley terrotorial and then we have not even touched the way the chantry views mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...
I hope that if you are forced to be a Seeker you can still turn against the Chantry from within, personally. But I will rather not be a seeker.

And I'd rather not be a mage, yet the option is probably going to be present. I wouldn't complain about a game where I am forced to be a mage either, since I would find it interesting to see what BioWare intended with such a story. Mainly it is because I am interrested in the story of Thedas, and not so far up my own **** that I can't look past some petty internet argument, and enjoy a story being told...

Okay that came across as a bit hostile, which wasn't intended... I just get a bit frustrated at people writing off a game, based on something as silly as a that...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:59 .

[Bayz]

Well destroying the chantry from within as a part of their inner circle inquisition doesn't make much sense does it...I mean it doesn't seem to me that they take anybody in, Leliana destroyed and Archdemon and Cassandra comes from a family that ate dragon crunchies from breakfast...directly from the living dragon itself.

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
And as a pro-elf fanatic myself , I absolutely do not agree with you. The chantry is not responsible at all for gettoization of the elves. That is an attempt to divert the human societies, nobles and the kings of their responsibilities. If the elves are treated so badly, that's because of humans people, and their prejudices, that's because of societies, nobles and  kings. They could totally change their politics and the chantry wouldn't be a problem at all. Like Allistair when he becomes king.

As the organization year chantry Needs to Be de-militarised and removed from Orlais Before I Will Stop Seeing is as tyranicall.

No problem with that. But what is the problem if the chantry remains in Orlais ?

You are roleplaying your avatar aren't you? 

I agree because I don't see anywhere that the Chantry said "Let's destroy the Dales and take the elves as second class citizens living in Alienages and...", it seems to me like they only thought on converting them. The rest is more a result of what the "noble and valiant" crusaders considered to do than what the Divine might have actually desired.

If religion had not been mixed into the war Dales would mostly likely be a occypied Fereldan, but because the were 'heathens' the gettoization happened. The organisation calling for the crusade is responsible for what the crusaders do.

[The dead fish]

greengoron89 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Its power is not tyrannical , except maybe in Kirkwall, where the Templars have the true power. Kings, kingdoms may rebel against its authority, they aren't forced to obey. The mad king at Ferelden even forced Mother I don't remember what is name " to claim that the king Marric was a son of demons. Her own life was in danger. The authority of the chantry is not based on force and fear it sows.

The chantry is supported.

The Chantry can also declare an Exalted March on anyone for any reason they see fit - which most of the time amounts to some group of people or nation not accepting the Maker, or some equally trivial excuse for them to assert their authority over others the hard way.

So "rebel" against the Chantry's authority at your own peril - the elves did, and now they're reduced to living in slums or wandering the wilderness in exile.

Yes, but before that they must mobilize a lot of people, they need strong support of the people, kings, and kingdoms. They need to influence, to convince. If the kingdoms and people don't listen, they can do absolutely nothing. How do you launch an exalted march if you don't have a military support ? So yes they launched march exalted, but still supported.

And that's where we understand that the real power of the chantry is spiritual.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:48 .

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

esper wrote...
I hope that if you are forced to be a Seeker you can still turn against the Chantry from within, personally. But I will rather not be a seeker.

And I'd rather not be a mage, yet the option is probably going to be present. I wouldn't complain about a game where I am forced to be a mage either, since I would find it interreswting to see what BioWare intended with such a story. Mainly it is because I am interrested in the story of Thedas, and not so far up my own **** that I can't look past some petty internet argument, and enjoy a story being told...

Okay that came across as a bit hostile, which wasn't intended... I just get a bit frustrated at people writing off a game, based on something as silly as a that...

I am not writing off the game. I am looking very much foreward to da3. And if I am forced to play a seeker, I will play a seeker. I prefer it if I can play a seeker who turns against the chantry or if I don't have to play a seeker at all. I love the world off dragon age and Thedas. And for the record I wouldn't mind if seeker was one out of many origin options I would properly even try it once. I don't play warriorr, I hate the class because I find it dull, but that doesn't mind I hate that the option is there.

[The dead fish]

Bayz wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
And as a pro-elf fanatic myself , I absolutely do not agree with you. The chantry is not responsible at all for gettoization of the elves. That is an attempt to divert the human societies, nobles and the kings of their responsibilities. If the elves are treated so badly, that's because of humans people, and their prejudices, that's because of societies, nobles and  kings. They could totally change their politics and the chantry wouldn't be a problem at all. Like Allistair when he becomes king.

As the organization year chantry Needs to Be de-militarised and removed from Orlais Before I Will Stop Seeing is as tyranicall.

No problem with that. But what is the problem if the chantry remains in Orlais ?

You are roleplaying your avatar aren't you? 

I agree because I don't see anywhere that the Chantry said "Let's destroy the Dales and take the elves as second class citizens living in Alienages and...", it seems to me like they only thought on converting them. The rest is more a result of what the "noble and valiant" crusaders considered to do than what the Divine might have actually desired.

I love that you know.

Yes, but the most important reason is that humans are used to seeing the elves in this situation for centuries. That's why most people's minds have not changed, and not at all because of religion.

I didn't see any human saying, " duuuu heretics ", or something else No when they talk about the elves, it's : " they are thieves, bums, thugs, etc. etc ."

That's pretty much racial prejudices and societal, not religious.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:57 .