228 réponses à ce sujet

[OMTING52601]

Zanallen wrote...

In my experience, gamers on average tend to be against religion. Bioware doesn't have to vilify the chantry. Their audience will do it for them.

Absolutely. The fact that DA writers have made the Chantry into slavers, of a sort, doesn't help matters. I'm with Isabela on this one, regardless good or ill, everyone should have the right to be free. If the Chantry existed as a place where mages could learn to control their magic and after the Harrowing choose to stay or go, I have zero doubt more players would see them as less 'evil'. It's the children ripped from their homes, can't ever leave again attitude that makes the Chantry so distasteful to me.

[DKJaigen]

Addai67 wrote...


There were church translations- who do you think did the translations that existed? And priests were to teach people in the vernacular, even if the Liturgy itself was in Latin. The idea that the church was trying to hide the Bible from common people is ludicrous.

And who did they teach? the nobles , princes and kings. in short everyone who is part of the established order. Who did they not teach? the middle class ,because they where the greatest threat to the established order. That their were translations means nothing if you do not spread that information around. You can see the RCC with rose colored glasses but this is simple fact.

[JaegerBane]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

In my experience, gamers on average tend to be against religion. Bioware doesn't have to vilify the chantry. Their audience will do it for them.

Absolutely. The fact that DA writers have made the Chantry into slavers, of a sort, doesn't help matters. I'm with Isabela on this one, regardless good or ill, everyone should have the right to be free. If the Chantry existed as a place where mages could learn to control their magic and after the Harrowing choose to stay or go, I have zero doubt more players would see them as less 'evil'. It's the children ripped from their homes, can't ever leave again attitude that makes the Chantry so distasteful to me.

I agree with your point, I disagree with Zanallen. 'Religion' in games typically take the villain role largely because computer game 'villains' tend to be large groups with lots of power, which allows the player to continuously fight them throughout the game so they feel they're winning, but also provide a continuous threat to keep the plot moving. A Religion fits that bill, but no more or no less than an Alien empire, a mercenary company, a mega-corporation, the forces of darkness etc. There's nothing inherent to a religion being evil.

In the case of the Chantry, I would argue that the writing is largely responsible for its vilification. The toxic mix of authoritarian dictators, indifferent apologists and raving maniacs really doesn't allow the Chantry to be anything other than the bad guy. I can't think of anything positive that the Chantry actually does in DA2, aside from hunting abominations, which is frankly a task that the Mages themselves would do better if they were allowed to do so.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 novembre 2011 - 11:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


There were church translations- who do you think did the translations that existed? And priests were to teach people in the vernacular, even if the Liturgy itself was in Latin. The idea that the church was trying to hide the Bible from common people is ludicrous.

And who did they teach? the nobles , princes and kings. in short everyone who is part of the established order. Who did they not teach? the middle class ,because they where the greatest threat to the established order. That their were translations means nothing if you do not spread that information around. You can see the RCC with rose colored glasses but this is simple fact.

They didn't normally teach peasants and merchants because they usually didn't have the coin to afford lessons.... Not because they percieved them as a threat... The Church taught anyone with enough coin to pay for the lessons.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


There were church translations- who do you think did the translations that existed? And priests were to teach people in the vernacular, even if the Liturgy itself was in Latin. The idea that the church was trying to hide the Bible from common people is ludicrous.

And who did they teach? the nobles , princes and kings. in short everyone who is part of the established order. Who did they not teach? the middle class ,because they where the greatest threat to the established order. That their were translations means nothing if you do not spread that information around. You can see the RCC with rose colored glasses but this is simple fact.

They didn't normally teach peasants and merchants because they usually didn't have the coin to afford lessons.... Not because they percieved them as a threat... The Church taught anyone with enough coin to pay for the lessons.


Thank you for proving my point.

[Gervaise]

With regard to the real world, in England the middle classes did have access to education and there were schools that were intended for anyone who was gifted enough and young men from non aristocratic backgrounds were admitted and as a result advanced in the world, sometimes sponsored by a trade guild, sometimes as a result of bursaries. Because one was required to take an oath of aliegance to the monarch as head of both church and state to enter or teach in the universities, from Elizabeth's time onwards anyone who was not willing to do this was denied higher education, unless they were influential enough to get permission to study abroad and could afford to do so.. That wasn't just Catholics but anyone whose conscience forbade them to make this oath. So both sides can be accused of regulating learning to suit their agenda if you wish to do so.

*****
Anyway, back to the game. As I pointed out in my post above, I would agree that DA2 did nothing to show the Chantry in a positive light. The fact that some posters could argue that only Elthina and a few Templars died in the bomb, show that it didn't convey properly the work that the Chantry does with regard to the disadvantaged in society. Also you could hardly accuse the Chantry of getting in the way of learning, since printing seems freely available in Thedas society and much of the population is literate and read books. What is odd is that no one seems to bother to do so. There are very few examples of people debating in print the validity of Chantry teaching and even less examples of people questioning this verbally. Hawke has a library jam packed with books - do none of these question the interpretation of the Chant of Light? In the real world, right from the beginning of Christianity, prominent figures would make comment on the meaning of particular passages of the Bible or the meaning of the faith and there was not always concensus. When this was considered a serious enough issue, then a full Church council would be called to consider it. It was not just down to the Pope. It would seem that in the Chantry the interpretation put on the Chant of Light was established early on by the Divine and never questioned, even by senior figures in the Chantry. I find this very odd particularly since the cult of Andraste was widespread long before the Chantry was established and whilst its teaching could be imposed on those countries Orlais invaded, what about those where it did not? For example, it is not clear exactly how mages were treated prior to the establishment of the Chantry? Did they live free in the community or were they hunted down and killed? How was blood magic viewed? The Grey Wardens at least seemed to think there was nothing wrong with it prior to the Chantry's ruling on the matter. Whatever the case, why did the other nations abide by the ruling of the Divine in Orlais? Or was the equivalent of a Church council called? Since the writers have chosen to make faith and religion such an important issue as it impacts on the mage/templar issue, it would be helpful to have a bit more background on how and why the Chantry's line became the norm.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


There were church translations- who do you think did the translations that existed? And priests were to teach people in the vernacular, even if the Liturgy itself was in Latin. The idea that the church was trying to hide the Bible from common people is ludicrous.

And who did they teach? the nobles , princes and kings. in short everyone who is part of the established order. Who did they not teach? the middle class ,because they where the greatest threat to the established order. That their were translations means nothing if you do not spread that information around. You can see the RCC with rose colored glasses but this is simple fact.

They didn't normally teach peasants and merchants because they usually didn't have the coin to afford lessons.... Not because they percieved them as a threat... The Church taught anyone with enough coin to pay for the lessons.

Thank you for proving my point.

How exactly does what I say, prove that the Church viewed peasants and merchants as threats?  

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[Bayz]

During what point of history?

Because I think they did after Marxism...and that's about it. Before it there were more like tools...I mean souls to save than actual threats ahem...

[Gervaise]

Since anyone could enter the clergy regardless of status or background, how can you say that the Church viewed peasants and merchants as threats?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because he doesn't know what he is talking about, that's why...

[Warden Majere]

After playing Legacy, I suspect there is much we don't know about the Chantry or the Maker. The Chantry says that the mages corrupted the Golden City, yet Corepheus said the City was already black when they arrived.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not everyone agrees that's what he said.

[Heimdall]

Addai67 wrote...

Copernicus was a churchman himself, and was encouraged to publish his ideas by the Pope. He was later caught up in Reformation politics, including having his work finished by a Lutheran polemicist who inserted a politically motivated preface.

There were church translations- who do you think did the translations that existed? And priests were to teach people in the vernacular, even if the Liturgy itself was in Latin. The idea that the church was trying to hide the Bible from common people is ludicrous. It's polemics, pure and simple. I admire Luther- I did a year-long research project on him, and he almost single-handedly created a literary German- but he was a Catholic humanist, and there were men like him on both sides of that dispute.

The Norman era also did not have a standard literary language.  The language of court was Norman French, the countryside went on as before, and the educated class mixed all of them and went on with Latin.  You can really only say that there was a literary English as of Chaucer.  By that time it's all downhill anyway, as far as I'm concerned.  lol

Galileo if you prefer, he was actually partly suspected of heresy because he vehemently argued in favor of heliocentrism.

They certainly never tried to translate the book for the masses, that was my point.  I don't think the church wanted to hide the bible from the people.  I think the church didn't care to provide the people with a means understand the book themselves and decided it was fine to treat people like sheep.

I know all that.  I also said there was no useful literary english because nobody agreed on how to write the language.  It's been awhile since I studied the subject, but, though it bore little resemblence to what we call english now, there was a language spoken on that island and people there could generally make themselves understood to one another with some exceptions.  "English" wasn't and still isn't a single unified construct, but that doesn't stop it from existing as a language.  I think your using a stricter sense of the word language than I.  Then again, I think we may be thinking of different periods.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 novembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[Heimdall]

Raistlin the Warden wrote...

After playing Legacy, I suspect there is much we don't know about the Chantry or the Maker. The Chantry says that the mages corrupted the Golden City, yet Corepheus said the City was already black when they arrived.

He said they were promised a golden city but they arrived and the city was black.  There is some dispute over whether this means the city was gold until they got there and instantly became black or was already black.

[Gervaise]

Another interesting thing is that the Chant of Light makes repeated reference to the silence. Originally the Golden City was meant to be full of singing spirits. When the Magisters arrive there it is black and silent. The old god of silence is Dumat and he was allegedly the one who encouraged them to go there. I keep thinking there must be some significance to that.

[Addai]

DKJaigen wrote...
And who did they teach? the nobles , princes and kings. in short everyone who is part of the established order. Who did they not teach? the middle class ,because they where the greatest threat to the established order. That their were translations means nothing if you do not spread that information around. You can see the RCC with rose colored glasses but this is simple fact.

*facepalm*  The ignorance on this subject is amusingly ironic, considering the point you're trying to make.

[DKJaigen]

Addai67 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
And who did they teach? the nobles , princes and kings. in short everyone who is part of the established order. Who did they not teach? the middle class ,because they where the greatest threat to the established order. That their were translations means nothing if you do not spread that information around. You can see the RCC with rose colored glasses but this is simple fact.

*facepalm*  The ignorance on this subject is amusingly ironic, considering the point you're trying to make.

If you say so.

[DKJaigen]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Raistlin the Warden wrote...

After playing Legacy, I suspect there is much we don't know about the Chantry or the Maker. The Chantry says that the mages corrupted the Golden City, yet Corepheus said the City was already black when they arrived.

He said they were promised a golden city but they arrived and the city was black.  There is some dispute over whether this means the city was gold until they got there and instantly became black or was already black.

I think its already black. David Gaider confirmed that the ogres where included in the darkspawn armies during the first blight. But how the heck is that possible if ogres are created from female kossith. So this means that the darkspawn are far more widespread then just the dwarven deeproads. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What has that part got to do with the Golden City? Or The Black City?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 novembre 2011 - 10:23 .

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What has that part got to do with the Golden City? Or The Black City?

Alot because if darkspawn existed before the corypheus and his fellow mages enterd the city then the city was already black

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not necessarily regarding when the city turned black, but not only that, the existence of ogres also doesn't mean that darkspawn existed before Corypheus. All it means is that somehow some of the darkspawn must have encountered Kossith at some point in time back then.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 novembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Heimdall]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not necessarily regarding when the city turned black, but not only that, the existence of ogres also doesn't mean that darkspawn existed before Corypheus. All it means is that somehow some of the darkspawn must have encountered Kossith at some point in time back then.

True, the darkspawn may have ecountered the first Qunari expeditions coming south for all we know.  The point is rather inconclusive.

[AlexXIV]

Maybe I am wrong so correct me if.

The first blight happened before the Qunari invasion in Thedas, which was the first time Qunari were seen on Thedas. In the first blight we already had Qunari Darkspawn. It follows that darkspawn either existed before the first Blight, or that they exist on other continents and somehow tunneled their way to Thedas. Strange.

[AlexXIV]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not necessarily regarding when the city turned black, but not only that, the existence of ogres also doesn't mean that darkspawn existed before Corypheus. All it means is that somehow some of the darkspawn must have encountered Kossith at some point in time back then.

True, the darkspawn may have ecountered the first Qunari expeditions coming south for all we know.  The point is rather inconclusive.

You know what speaks against this? The Arishok sent Sten to find the answer on a question. Question being 'What is the Blight'. If they had known any Blights, why ask silly questions? Unless they don't record history. So it looks to me this would have been the first Blight for Qunari. Also according to the timeline the Qunari arrived at Par Vollen after the 4th Blight.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 novembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[DKJaigen]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not necessarily regarding when the city turned black, but not only that, the existence of ogres also doesn't mean that darkspawn existed before Corypheus. All it means is that somehow some of the darkspawn must have encountered Kossith at some point in time back then.

True, the darkspawn may have ecountered the first Qunari expeditions coming south for all we know.  The point is rather inconclusive.

The problem is that nearly a 1000 years passed between the first blight and the invasion of the qunari. And the qunari comes from the other side of the ocean. So the darkspawn must be on other continents as well.