228 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Which not-so-nice things?

[AlexXIV]

The usual. Treatment of mages/apostates, elves, etc. I know you think that's necessary and such, but I wouldn't know that if it wasn't the Chantry doing it, but some sort of shady organisation if not many people would think badly about them. The Chantry is covered by divine right, which basically means it is the Maker's wish. So if they do it, it is nothing bad. I guess some people are happy that the Chantry takes care of mages, but most probably never get to see a mage at all. I think a child being a mage does have like a 1:100 or 1:1000 probability.

Also I am pretty sure, like their catholic church model, they have some 'forbidden knowlegde' hidden somewhere, probably Orlais. Because while I understand why they don't like 'heretic knowledge' going around and available for the average person I would be surprised if they don't find it interesting enough to make some research. Behind closed door. I don't think the Chantry is acting much different than for example modern states which know well to hide 'dangerous' information from the public.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 novembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry aren't the ones mistreating elves, that is human society as a whole.

The people of Thedaas view the Circles as neccesary, and probably even a good thing, since it keep the dangerous mages away from the normal people.

The only difference in the Chantry hiding information, and the chatholic church, is that the Chantry is probably hiding actual dangerous information. Such is spell books on dark magic, and such.

[AlexXIV]

Yeah I am not basing my prejudice on much I know. And the Chantry, while maybe not supporting racism more than other human organisations, they don't do anything against it either. Or much. I mean if you have an organisation that powerful and supposedly being the 'good guys' you'd think they do more. Instead they react rather aggressive (even if only with words) to 'provocations' of all sorts. For example if you dare to say you don't believe in the Maker.

Maybe I expect too much, as in christian ideals. For example forgiveness, tolerance, love, etc. I see they love those that worship the maker, but I think they should try harder to understand, tolerate and ... well, yes, love even those who don't do everything they command them. I think they generally destroy alot of opportunities to peace and harmony in all of Thedas with their rather ruthless way to solve problems. I mean if I used ME terminology I would say the Chanry is rather 'renegade' than 'paragon' while I personally prefer paragon.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry aren't the ones mistreating elves, that is human society as a whole.

The people of Thedaas view the Circles as neccesary, and probably even a good thing, since it keep the dangerous mages away from the normal people.

The only difference in the Chantry hiding information, and the chatholic church, is that the Chantry is probably hiding actual dangerous information. Such is spell books on dark magic, and such.

And the chant of Shartan and dismsssing the role the elven slaves played during the first exalted march. Yep no hiding of information at all

[jamesp81]

AlexXIV wrote...

The usual. Treatment of mages/apostates, elves, etc. I know you think that's necessary and such, but I wouldn't know that if it wasn't the Chantry doing it, but some sort of shady organisation if not many people would think badly about them. The Chantry is covered by divine right, which basically means it is the Maker's wish. So if they do it, it is nothing bad. I guess some people are happy that the Chantry takes care of mages, but most probably never get to see a mage at all. I think a child being a mage does have like a 1:100 or 1:1000 probability.

Also I am pretty sure, like their catholic church model, they have some 'forbidden knowlegde' hidden somewhere, probably Orlais. Because while I understand why they don't like 'heretic knowledge' going around and available for the average person I would be surprised if they don't find it interesting enough to make some research. Behind closed door. I don't think the Chantry is acting much different than for example modern states which know well to hide 'dangerous' information from the public.

The modern Chantry is not mistreating elves and hasn't been observed doing such.  The treatment of elves in DAO and DA2 is completely at the hands of some human nobles.  Or, at times, they mistreat themselves (Zathrian comes to mind) but the Chantry isn't the one doing the oppressing in this case.

[jamesp81]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am not basing my prejudice on much I know. And the Chantry, while maybe not supporting racism more than other human organisations, they don't do anything against it either. Or much. I mean if you have an organisation that powerful and supposedly being the 'good guys' you'd think they do more. Instead they react rather aggressive (even if only with words) to 'provocations' of all sorts. For example if you dare to say you don't believe in the Maker.

Maybe I expect too much, as in christian ideals. For example forgiveness, tolerance, love, etc. I see they love those that worship the maker, but I think they should try harder to understand, tolerate and ... well, yes, love even those who don't do everything they command them. I think they generally destroy alot of opportunities to peace and harmony in all of Thedas with their rather ruthless way to solve problems. I mean if I used ME terminology I would say the Chanry is rather 'renegade' than 'paragon' while I personally prefer paragon.

Cite an example of a Chantry official acting aggressively towards someone who states they don't believe in the Maker.  I've yet to see such a thing in either game.  In fact, one of the defining characteristics I've noted about the Chantry is that it doesn't get terribly bent out of shape about non-believers.  Even though it's the state religion of most nations in Thedas, plenty of people in Thedas express no belief in the Maker and the Chantry doesn't come and kill them for it.

The only examples of "ruthless problem solving" are the Exalted March of the Dales, which happened 700 years before DAO, and the treatment of mages.  Frankly, most of Thedas probably doesn't care if mages are treated poorly, so I fail to see how that destroys opportunities.

[AlexXIV]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am not basing my prejudice on much I know. And the Chantry, while maybe not supporting racism more than other human organisations, they don't do anything against it either. Or much. I mean if you have an organisation that powerful and supposedly being the 'good guys' you'd think they do more. Instead they react rather aggressive (even if only with words) to 'provocations' of all sorts. For example if you dare to say you don't believe in the Maker.

Maybe I expect too much, as in christian ideals. For example forgiveness, tolerance, love, etc. I see they love those that worship the maker, but I think they should try harder to understand, tolerate and ... well, yes, love even those who don't do everything they command them. I think they generally destroy alot of opportunities to peace and harmony in all of Thedas with their rather ruthless way to solve problems. I mean if I used ME terminology I would say the Chanry is rather 'renegade' than 'paragon' while I personally prefer paragon.

Cite an example of a Chantry official acting aggressively towards someone who states they don't believe in the Maker.  I've yet to see such a thing in either game.  In fact, one of the defining characteristics I've noted about the Chantry is that it doesn't get terribly bent out of shape about non-believers.  Even though it's the state religion of most nations in Thedas, plenty of people in Thedas express no belief in the Maker and the Chantry doesn't come and kill them for it.

The only examples of "ruthless problem solving" are the Exalted March of the Dales, which happened 700 years before DAO, and the treatment of mages.  Frankly, most of Thedas probably doesn't care if mages are treated poorly, so I fail to see how that destroys opportunities.

In DA:O you can talk to some sisters of the chantry, and if you tell them you don't need blessings or don't believe they get rude. Yeah they got the dales already, no need to conquer them anymore, and if Alistair gives the dalish new land the Chantry is messing again. Of course I assume some people blame that on the elves again, but honestly, having a dalish elf myself as Hero of Ferelden, it's not the elves. It's the Chantry who causes problems. Because where ever they go they have to send their missionaries and stir trouble.

Just look at the Chant 'There is only one god and He is our Maker'. Yeah Old Gods or Dalish gods or paragons are nothing. Sry, but that's aggressive. With sword in hand is not the only way to be aggressive.

[The Baconer]

jamesp81 wrote...
Cite an example of a Chantry official acting aggressively towards someone who states they don't believe in the Maker.  I've yet to see such a thing in either game.  In fact, one of the defining characteristics I've noted about the Chantry is that it doesn't get terribly bent out of shape about non-believers.  Even though it's the state religion of most nations in Thedas, plenty of people in Thedas express no belief in the Maker and the Chantry doesn't come and kill them for it.

The only examples of "ruthless problem solving" are the Exalted March of the Dales, which happened 700 years before DAO, and the treatment of mages.  Frankly, most of Thedas probably doesn't care if mages are treated poorly, so I fail to see how that destroys opportunities.

"...And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."
-Codex: The Llomerryn Accords

Modifié par The Baconer, 09 novembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[DKJaigen]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am not basing my prejudice on much I know. And the Chantry, while maybe not supporting racism more than other human organisations, they don't do anything against it either. Or much. I mean if you have an organisation that powerful and supposedly being the 'good guys' you'd think they do more. Instead they react rather aggressive (even if only with words) to 'provocations' of all sorts. For example if you dare to say you don't believe in the Maker.

Maybe I expect too much, as in christian ideals. For example forgiveness, tolerance, love, etc. I see they love those that worship the maker, but I think they should try harder to understand, tolerate and ... well, yes, love even those who don't do everything they command them. I think they generally destroy alot of opportunities to peace and harmony in all of Thedas with their rather ruthless way to solve problems. I mean if I used ME terminology I would say the Chanry is rather 'renegade' than 'paragon' while I personally prefer paragon.

Cite an example of a Chantry official acting aggressively towards someone who states they don't believe in the Maker.  I've yet to see such a thing in either game.  In fact, one of the defining characteristics I've noted about the Chantry is that it doesn't get terribly bent out of shape about non-believers.  Even though it's the state religion of most nations in Thedas, plenty of people in Thedas express no belief in the Maker and the Chantry doesn't come and kill them for it.

The only examples of "ruthless problem solving" are the Exalted March of the Dales, which happened 700 years before DAO, and the treatment of mages.  Frankly, most of Thedas probably doesn't care if mages are treated poorly, so I fail to see how that destroys opportunities.

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly. Brother Burkel as wll btw.

[LobselVith8]

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly. Brother Burkel as wll btw.

Brother Burkel seemed condescending of the fact that the dwarves in Orzammar didn't believe in the Andrastian Chantry, and Cullen dismisses Oghren as a heathen because he's a dwarf. It's interesting to note that Mother Hannah (who resides in Redcliffe) promises not to send a mob to attack the Amell Warden for being a mage (her dialogue with the Surana Warden focuses on The Warden being elven rather than a mage).

[Herr Uhl]

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 09 novembre 2011 - 03:56 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We don't know the reason for the Dalish boon going badly. Assuming it's the Chantry who was responsible for it going badly is jumping got conclusions.

The incident in Rivain wasn't about not believing in the Maker. It was a result of the Qunari war, most people in Rivain aren't Andrastia and since it mentions Rivaini nationalist forces being a part of it I think the implication is that it was specifically an anti-qunari backlash.

Brother Burkle is kind of condescending but he isn't really that rude, even to people like Morrigan or Sten who aren't exactly friendly to him.

The sister in Ostagar is rude sometimes but only to people who are rude to her first. Sister Petrice is the only official who promoted murder for denying the Maker and she was defying the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall to do so.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

Maybe the Dalish wants to see if all the Chantry priests are really a bunch of ****s. Maybe the Dalish wants to see if they're not all bad. Maybe he/she wants to see if the Chantry priest will respect the Dalish beliefs.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

Maybe the Dalish wants to see if all the Chantry priests are really a bunch of ****s. Maybe the Dalish wants to see if they're not all bad. Maybe he/she wants to see if the Chantry priest will respect the Dalish beliefs.

And the Dalish Warden is of course nearsighted cause he must approach the Priestess all up in her face and stare at her, for him to see and confirm his beliefs. Furthermore he is being unneccesarily rude towards a priestess who only wants to help. Yeah, obviously it is the priestess being a **** in this instance.....

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the Dalish Warden is of course nearsighted cause he must approach the Priestess all up in her face and stare at her, for him to see and confirm his beliefs. Furthermore he is being unneccesarily rude towards a priestess who only wants to help. Yeah, obviously it is the priestess being a **** in this instance.....

Even if The Warden refuses without being abrasive, the Chantry sister condemns him (or her).

[EmperorSahlertz]

IIRC the only way to deny her blessing is to say: "You can keep your blessings to yourself", and the only other option is to accept it.

[Ryzaki]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

That's not always the case .My HN walked up to her and spoke to her and then went "Uh...no thanks." [The actual written line was I don't beleive in the maker or some such] and got snarled at. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IIRC the only way to deny her blessing is to say: "You can keep your blessings to yourself", and the only other option is to accept it.

That's incorrect. The different Wardens have different responses for her. I recall my Surana Warden mentioning how the Chantry sieged the homeland of his people when she mentioned receiving a "blessing," and she dismissed him.

[jamesp81]

The Baconer wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Cite an example of a Chantry official acting aggressively towards someone who states they don't believe in the Maker.  I've yet to see such a thing in either game.  In fact, one of the defining characteristics I've noted about the Chantry is that it doesn't get terribly bent out of shape about non-believers.  Even though it's the state religion of most nations in Thedas, plenty of people in Thedas express no belief in the Maker and the Chantry doesn't come and kill them for it.

The only examples of "ruthless problem solving" are the Exalted March of the Dales, which happened 700 years before DAO, and the treatment of mages.  Frankly, most of Thedas probably doesn't care if mages are treated poorly, so I fail to see how that destroys opportunities.

"...And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."
-Codex: The Llomerryn Accords

300 years before DAO.  Cite an example from recent history, please.

If you're wanting to say the Chantry did bad things in the past, you won't get an argument from me.  I also don't care as much about who they used to be nearly so much as I care about who they are now.

Cite an example, that appears in either game, of the Chantry doing something like what happened in Rivain.  Please find a place in either game where people are put to death for denying the worship of the Maker.

[jamesp81]

DKJaigen wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am not basing my prejudice on much I know. And the Chantry, while maybe not supporting racism more than other human organisations, they don't do anything against it either. Or much. I mean if you have an organisation that powerful and supposedly being the 'good guys' you'd think they do more. Instead they react rather aggressive (even if only with words) to 'provocations' of all sorts. For example if you dare to say you don't believe in the Maker.

Maybe I expect too much, as in christian ideals. For example forgiveness, tolerance, love, etc. I see they love those that worship the maker, but I think they should try harder to understand, tolerate and ... well, yes, love even those who don't do everything they command them. I think they generally destroy alot of opportunities to peace and harmony in all of Thedas with their rather ruthless way to solve problems. I mean if I used ME terminology I would say the Chanry is rather 'renegade' than 'paragon' while I personally prefer paragon.

Cite an example of a Chantry official acting aggressively towards someone who states they don't believe in the Maker.  I've yet to see such a thing in either game.  In fact, one of the defining characteristics I've noted about the Chantry is that it doesn't get terribly bent out of shape about non-believers.  Even though it's the state religion of most nations in Thedas, plenty of people in Thedas express no belief in the Maker and the Chantry doesn't come and kill them for it.

The only examples of "ruthless problem solving" are the Exalted March of the Dales, which happened 700 years before DAO, and the treatment of mages.  Frankly, most of Thedas probably doesn't care if mages are treated poorly, so I fail to see how that destroys opportunities.

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly. Brother Burkel as wll btw.

Most people react poorly to rudeness.  No big surprise there.

[jamesp81]

The incident in Rivain wasn't about not believing in the Maker. It was a
result of the Qunari war, most people in Rivain aren't Andrastia and
since it mentions Rivaini nationalist forces being a part of it I think
the implication is that it was specifically an anti-qunari backlash.

I hadn't thought of that, but that's a good point.  The Rivaini are largely not Andrastian preferring a form of nature worship (codex calls it The Natural Order).  That would suggest is more about Qunari backlash than butchering non-Andrastians.  The Qunari were, for good reason, not particularly popular at that moment in time.

Modifié par jamesp81, 09 novembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[jamesp81]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IIRC the only way to deny her blessing is to say: "You can keep your blessings to yourself", and the only other option is to accept it.

That's incorrect. The different Wardens have different responses for her. I recall my Surana Warden mentioning how the Chantry sieged the homeland of his people when she mentioned receiving a "blessing," and she dismissed him.

The situation with the Dales isn't quite so simple.  However it started, the war was initially between the Dales and Orlais.  The Dalish managed to sack Val Royeaux and were doing a fine job of kicking the **** out of the Orlesian army.

Right or wrong, several other Andrastian nations viewed the conquest of Orlais by the elves as unacceptable, and so did the Chantry (headquartered in Orlais).  The Chantry called an exalted march and the elves were repulsed.

It matters a lot here who started the war and why, and that isn't really known for certain.

Modifié par jamesp81, 09 novembre 2011 - 06:06 .

[DKJaigen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

That's not always the case .My HN walked up to her and spoke to her and then went "Uh...no thanks." [The actual written line was I don't beleive in the maker or some such] and got snarled at. 

Indeed. while the elves are indeed rude to the priestess she has no reasons to do so when a human says a simple no.

[LobselVith8]

jamesp81 wrote...

The situation with the Dales isn't quite so simple.  However it started, the war was initially between the Dales and Orlais.  The Dalish managed to sack Val Royeaux and were doing a fine job of kicking the **** out of the Orlesian army.

Right or wrong, several other Andrastian nations viewed the conquest of Orlais by the elves as unacceptable, and so did the Chantry (headquartered in Orlais).  The Chantry called an exalted march and the elves were repulsed.

It matters a lot here who started the war and why, and that isn't really known for certain.

There is mainly two points of view on the matter - Orlais claims it was started by the elves during the attack on Red Crossing, and the Dalish claim it was started when the templars invaded the Dales because of their refusal to convert to the Chantry of Andraste, after kicking out the human missionaries. However, I wasn't addressing who was right or wrong about the Exalted March on the Dales.

When the Chantry sister asks the Surana Warden if he will accept a blessing, the Surana Warden can retort that a response that references the Chantry led forces going against the Dales over religious differences (although the actual line doesn't directly address the Exalted March on the Dales by name) which leads to the Chantry sister dismissing the conversation. I found it interesting because the Surana Warden is implied to be from a city, as the Denerim Alienage is one of the possible places of birth the protagonist can tell another elven mage.