228 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

No the Dalish don't claim the war started when Templars were sent into their lands. They state that the Dales ceased to exist once the Templars came, which is a reference to the END of the war. Even then, the whole Dalish source we got, is worth less than the paper it is written on, since it hold no details at all, and are exceptionally biased. Never the less, it makes no actual reference to the cause at the war, but a veield reference may be that they denied entrance to the Dales to the missionaries (again, not Templars).

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 novembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry aren't the ones mistreating elves, that is human society as a whole.

The people of Thedaas view the Circles as neccesary, and probably even a good thing, since it keep the dangerous mages away from the normal people.

The only difference in the Chantry hiding information, and the chatholic church, is that the Chantry is probably hiding actual dangerous information. Such is spell books on dark magic, and such.

And the chant of Shartan and dismsssing the role the elven slaves played during the first exalted march. Yep no hiding of information at all

The canticle of Shartan is still common knowledge, so the Chantry isn't trying to keep it from the public, they jsut don't sing it in the Chant anymore, since tehy don't feel the people who sacked their headquarters are worth honoring anymore...

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No the Dalish don't claim the war started when Templars were sent into their lands. They state that the Dales ceased to exist once the Templars came, which is a reference to the END of the war.

The Dalish claim the templars were sent into the Dales after the elves kicked out their missionaries, because they refused to convert to the Chantry. Even the Surana Warden can imply as much to the Chantry sister (when they are discussing elves) by mentioning that the homeland for the elves (the Dales, which isn't mentioned by name) was destroyed because they refused to convert.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Even then, the whole Dalish source we got, is worth less than the paper it is written on, since it hold no details at all, and are exceptionally biased. Never the less, it makes no actual reference to the cause at the war, but a veield reference may be that they denied entrance to the Dales to the missionaries (again, not Templars).

You mean it provides an alternative to the Orlesian version of events - the same nation that has a history of conquering other nations since its inception.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It barely even provides any information, other than spiteful nonsense... It doesn't even bother to mention the war which lasted for half a century... Oh yeah, that's a reliable source if I ever saw one...

And yes, the Dales were destroyed because they refused to convert. It was an exalted march which ended them, not the Orlesians, so the MO became to convert once Orlais was secured. That doesn't mean that the Templars entered the country first though, which again, the entry doesn't even say they did.

[errant_knight]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Considering the multitude of threads complaining about how Bioware is pushing certain groups to seem better/worse than they actually are, is this also the case for the chantry? They make Meredith incompetent, make Elthina ineffectual, have them harbor mad zealots, have them endorse the conquest and further occupation of Ferelden, force all elves to live either on the run or as second class citizens, lobotimize people because they're dangerous, plan exalted marches on the drop of a hat and so forth.

I'm sure there are many and more things people would like to bring up here, so let's have it. How is bioware making the chantry look bad?

And virtually every mage you meet has been consorting with demons to the point that they can become blood mages at the drop of the hat. The two mages you befriend are a  blood mage and an abomination and one of them willfully plunges Thedas into a war to end all wars by an act of terrorism. So....no, everyone comes off equally badly. If there's a conclusion to be drawn, it's 'people suck' and Hawke's life sucks worse.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It barely even provides any information, other than spiteful nonsense... It doesn't even bother to mention the war which lasted for half a century... Oh yeah, that's a reliable source if I ever saw one...

It's an alternative view to the Orlesian version of events. You're welcome to dismiss it, but that doesn't change that it provides an alternative to what the Orlesians claimed started the war.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yes, the Dales were destroyed because they refused to convert. It was an exalted march which ended them, not the Orlesians, so the MO became to convert once Orlais was secured. That doesn't mean that the Templars entered the country first though, which again, the entry doesn't even say they did.

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste are intertwined - ever since the first ruler of Orlesian Empie, Emperor Kordillus Drakon I, created the Chantry of Andraste. In fact, this is evident from the Orleisan occupation of Ferelden, which the Chantry had supported.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 novembre 2011 - 07:06 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It barely even provides any information, other than spiteful nonsense... It doesn't even bother to mention the war which lasted for half a century... Oh yeah, that's a reliable source if I ever saw one...

It's an alternative view to the Orlesian version of events. You're welcome to dismiss it, but that doesn't change that it provides an alternative to what the Orlesians claimed started the war.

That is just it, it barely even offers an alternative view. The Orlesian source also mentions that the Dalish borders were closed, and all attempts at trade and social interaction were denied. So that is nothing new. The Orlesian source also mentions that the Dales fell to an Exalted March, which includes Templars. So the Dalish sources offers very little, other than to show us the spiteful nature of the Dalish and their butthurtness over losing a war really.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yes, the Dales were destroyed because they refused to convert. It was an exalted march which ended them, not the Orlesians, so the MO became to convert once Orlais was secured. That doesn't mean that the Templars entered the country first though, which again, the entry doesn't even say they did.

Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste are intertwined - ever since the first ruler of Orlesian Empie, Emperor Kordillus Drakon I, created the Chantry of Andraste. In fact, this is evident from the Orleisan occupation of Ferelden, which the Chantry had supported.

I suppose that is why the Chantry didn't call for an Exalted March against the heathen Elves until the Elves was already halfway to Val Royaux...

[jamesp81]

DKJaigen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

That's not always the case .My HN walked up to her and spoke to her and then went "Uh...no thanks." [The actual written line was I don't beleive in the maker or some such] and got snarled at. 

Indeed. while the elves are indeed rude to the priestess she has no reasons to do so when a human says a simple no.

Are we saying here that the sister being rude is tantamount to religious oppression?  Because that's kind of ridiculous, when you think about it.

Modifié par jamesp81, 09 novembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[DKJaigen]

jamesp81 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

That's not always the case .My HN walked up to her and spoke to her and then went "Uh...no thanks." [The actual written line was I don't beleive in the maker or some such] and got snarled at. 

Indeed. while the elves are indeed rude to the priestess she has no reasons to do so when a human says a simple no.

Are we saying here that the sister being rude is tantamount to religious oppression?  Because that's kind of ridiculous, when you think about it.

No but it gives a good impression what the average tolerance is. And the tolerance of the chantry is pretty low indeed. every time in thedas history the chantry is somehow forced to live with another religous sect it ends in violence.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is just it, it barely even offers an alternative view. The Orlesian source also mentions that the Dalish borders were closed, and all attempts at trade and social interaction were denied. So that is nothing new. The Orlesian source also mentions that the Dales fell to an Exalted March, which includes Templars. So the Dalish sources offers very little, other than to show us the spiteful nature of the Dalish and their butthurtness over losing a war really.

It provides an alternative point of view by addressing what they believed caused the war with Orlais and the Chantry, so you're welcome to disagree with it, but that doesn't change that it's still an alternative to what is espoused by both Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste. In fact, of the two nations, the one nation with a history of conquering other nations is none other than Orlais.

The elves wanted to regain their immortality, which they believed was lost due to interaction with humanity, so it makes sense that they wouldn't want to interact with humanity. Not to mention that, according to the Dalish, the human nations grew cold towards them because they refused to worship the Maker.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I suppose that is why the Chantry didn't call for an Exalted March against the heathen Elves until the Elves was already halfway to Val Royaux...

I suppose the Chantry didn't realize that they weren't going to win the war on their own until the Dalish were winning the war and progressing so far.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is just it, it barely even offers an alternative view. The Orlesian source also mentions that the Dalish borders were closed, and all attempts at trade and social interaction were denied. So that is nothing new. The Orlesian source also mentions that the Dales fell to an Exalted March, which includes Templars. So the Dalish sources offers very little, other than to show us the spiteful nature of the Dalish and their butthurtness over losing a war really.

It provides an alternative point of view by addressing what they believed caused the war with Orlais and the Chantry, so you're welcome to disagree with it, but that doesn't change that it's still an alternative to what is espoused by both Orlais and the Chantry of Andraste. In fact, of the two nations, the one nation with a history of conquering other nations is none other than Orlais.

The elves wanted to regain their immortality, which they believed was lost due to interaction with humanity, so it makes sense that they wouldn't want to interact with humanity. Not to mention that, according to the Dalish, the human nations grew cold towards them because they refused to worship the Maker.

Is it really that hard to get?...

The entry makes NO MENTION AT ALL to the war, so how does it offer any alternative reason for a war, that it neglects to mention? That's becasue it doesn't. It doesn't offer any noteworthy different account to what started the hostilities. We already know they clsoed their borders. It does however forget to mention a whole lot of other stuff, such as wathcing Montsimmard fall to the Darkspawn, and refusing trade with humans, or even to offer an explanation as to why.

All it does is provide less information on a subject, than the counterpart offers, and it doesn't even with the little it actually says, say anything noteworthy different. In short: All it offers is two squirts of ****** in a bucket.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The entry makes NO MENTION AT ALL to the war, so how does it offer any alternative reason for a war, that it neglects to mention? That's becasue it doesn't.

The entry is about the fall of the Dales. It's the same viewpoint that the Surana Warden can mention to the Chantry sister (when she asks about "blessings") when he choses to mention the elven homeland being sacked because his people didn't worship the Maker. I don't see why you have such an issue with this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The entry is about the Dales in general, not just the fall.

I have issue with anyone who uses the Dalish version of the entry as a reliable source of events. It is grossly undetailed, unspecific, and even untrue. As I have stated many times, it is worthless.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The entry is about the Dales in general, not just the fall.

I have issue with anyone who uses the Dalish version of the entry as a reliable source of events. It is grossly undetailed, unspecific, and even untrue. As I have stated many times, it is worthless.

True your right. But once again it ended in violence. Seems to happen a lot when the chantry is involved

[EmperorSahlertz]

Same could be said about anything in Thedas. 100% of the times the Elves have had a homeland, it has ended in violence.

[SkittlesKat96]

From what we've seen yes, it seems like the Chantry are meant to be pretty unlikeable.

That said though I think some of the Chantry's views and the Templars and Divine are somewhat reasonable...

[jamesp81]

DKJaigen wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

That's not always the case .My HN walked up to her and spoke to her and then went "Uh...no thanks." [The actual written line was I don't beleive in the maker or some such] and got snarled at. 

Indeed. while the elves are indeed rude to the priestess she has no reasons to do so when a human says a simple no.

Are we saying here that the sister being rude is tantamount to religious oppression?  Because that's kind of ridiculous, when you think about it.

No but it gives a good impression what the average tolerance is. And the tolerance of the chantry is pretty low indeed. every time in thedas history the chantry is somehow forced to live with another religous sect it ends in violence.

Again, cite an example of the Chantry going to war with, or executing people for being heathens that doesn't take place multiple centuries before DAO.

[DKJaigen]

jamesp81 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest you have only one real opportunity to tell a sister to GTFO. and thats in Ostagar and the sister in question reacts very poorly.

You walk up to a sister who is giving blessings, who asks if you want one, you tell her to GTFO. If you're for example a Dalish, why would you walk up to her?

The point is, the PC is being pretty rude as well in that instance.

That's not always the case .My HN walked up to her and spoke to her and then went "Uh...no thanks." [The actual written line was I don't beleive in the maker or some such] and got snarled at. 

Indeed. while the elves are indeed rude to the priestess she has no reasons to do so when a human says a simple no.

Are we saying here that the sister being rude is tantamount to religious oppression?  Because that's kind of ridiculous, when you think about it.

No but it gives a good impression what the average tolerance is. And the tolerance of the chantry is pretty low indeed. every time in thedas history the chantry is somehow forced to live with another religous sect it ends in violence.

Again, cite an example of the Chantry going to war with, or executing people for being heathens that doesn't take place multiple centuries before DAO.

Kirkwall

[Urazz]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

From what we've seen yes, it seems like the Chantry are meant to be pretty unlikeable.

That said though I think some of the Chantry's views and the Templars and Divine are somewhat reasonable...

I think templars are definately required, but they shouldn't be under Chantry control.  The teachings of Andraste herself are actually good but have been warped by the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The entry is about the Dales in general, not just the fall.

I have issue with anyone who uses the Dalish version of the entry as a reliable source of events. It is grossly undetailed, unspecific, and even untrue. As I have stated many times, it is worthless.

The entry addresses the rebellion against Tevinter, the reward of the Dales, "the end of the journey," and the reason for the fall of the Dales.

You're welcome to disagree with the entry, but you're incorrect to state it's "worthless" simply because you personally disagree with it. Considering that the Orlesian counterpart by Sister Petrine is heavily biased against the elves, I find it surprising you're so willing to accept it more easily.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Neither the Dalish or Orlesian version of the Codex entry goes into sufficient detail to give a clear picture of what happened back then, even without their respective biases of the history of the war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Neither the Dalish or Orlesian version of the Codex entry goes into sufficient detail to give a clear picture of what happened back then, even without their respective biases of the history of the war.

They don't. My point is that the Dalish entry doesn't offer any alternative version, despite waht Lobsel is trying to make it sound like.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 novembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[LinksOcarina]

I don't thinkt he Chantry is evil, at least inherently. The Chantry is like any religious organization, it will have helpful souls and members, who are trying to do good for the people, and pompous blowhards who would contradict their good deeds with platitudes and supression.

So that is the true evil; the humans, elves, and other races that supress their beliefs over others instead of tolerating them. Kind of like what the Qunari are, only there doctrine is militant in that sense and widely complex. The Chantry becomes the Qun if it does the same thing, ironically something they are against but do anyway. So hypocritical a bit, and sometimes dangerous, but not inherently evil.

[AlexXIV]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I don't thinkt he Chantry is evil, at least inherently. The Chantry is like any religious organization, it will have helpful souls and members, who are trying to do good for the people, and pompous blowhards who would contradict their good deeds with platitudes and supression.

So that is the true evil; the humans, elves, and other races that supress their beliefs over others instead of tolerating them. Kind of like what the Qunari are, only there doctrine is militant in that sense and widely complex. The Chantry becomes the Qun if it does the same thing, ironically something they are against but do anyway. So hypocritical a bit, and sometimes dangerous, but not inherently evil.

The difference between Qun and Chantry is that the Qun is straight-forward and plain for everyone to see while the chantry contradicts it's own lore with it's actions. Chances are they have become something Andrastae and maybe even the Maker would hate. I guess that's also a reason why the Qunari look down on the chantry. They fail to follow their own rules. Or better said the rules of their god and prophet.

[LinksOcarina]

AlexXIV wrote...

The difference between Qun and Chantry is that the Qun is straight-forward and plain for everyone to see while the chantry contradicts it's own lore with it's actions. Chances are they have become something Andrastae and maybe even the Maker would hate. I guess that's also a reason why the Qunari look down on the chantry. They fail to follow their own rules. Or better said the rules of their god and prophet.

You know, just like real religions.