133 réponses à ce sujet

[Gemini1179]

The more I think about it, the less I seem to care about the story in Mass Effect. It is the gameplay and characters that are becoming the focal point for me.

There are several reasons for this.

1. The Reaper Plan

    So in ME1 we get a great galaxy spanning adventure in which we learn in the end that the Citadel is a giant mass relay presumably linking to another relay in Dark Space. The Reaper Vanguard aka Soverign is left behind to send the signal to the citadel to open the relay letting the Reaper fleets enter the galaxy. Awesome plan, but due to the Protheans, some number of years before ME1 when Soverign sends the signal, nothing happens. Ok, plan B.

So... plan B was to gather allies ie Geth and Saren, indoctrinate them, use Saren to search the galaxy for a secret way onto the citadel (which he already has full access to- If you're going to say they didn't know what the Conduit actually was, why wasn't there a sweet face-slapping moment when Saren arrived at the Citadel and realized all his hard work was essentially for nothing?) and manually open the relay. Now, I haven't read all the back story comics, but it seems to me that this whole process took some number of years.

Skip ahead to Arrival. Turns out, the Reapers only needed TWO YEARS to fly into the galaxy and have full access to the relay network. So what the heck was Soverign wasting all that time for? Why didn't he simply signal his Reaper buddies and be all like: "Yeah, so the Citadel relay isn't going to open, why don't y'all head on in to the Alpha relay and we'll do it the old fashioned way. Otherwise, I gotta like take 20 years to manipulate things into position to even have a chance at opening the Citadel relay again."

Oh, but in the meantime, Harbinger the "wacky scientist" Reaper thought he'd covertly start abducting Humans, (needing MILLIONS, mind you) liquify them and stick them in a baby Reaper. When Shepard blows that plan to dust, Harbinger says "We will find another way." Another way to what? Make a Human Reaper? Conquor the galaxy? What?

....Chewbacca is a wookiee...


2. The Railroading

    So in ME2, we're essentially railroaded into working with Cerberus. Other than a few "I'll never work for you" lines, Shepard gets on the Cerberus bus pretty quickly. Frustrating, but at least the gameplay and characters are fun.

NOW, if you're anti-Cerberus the whole way, and you play LotSB- you are FORCED to defend them to Tela Vasir. This drove me nuts, there was no option to say "I know who they are and I'll be dealing with them soon enough", your Paragon line is some crap about knowing what they've done and not caring. Not caring? I certainly did care about Admiral Kahoku and all the rest of the crap Cerberus pulled in ME1 and I'm stuck wondering "Who's Shepard is this, she isn't mine."

Thankfully at the end you can totally turn your back on them and go back to the Alliance and Citadel where people appreciate you... oh wait.

IF, however, you like Cerberus' style, you can totally get on board with them through ME2 and follow TIM's leadership, keeping the Collector base and furthering Humanity's strength in the Galaxy- Then comes Arrival again- this time to railroad you back to Earth. Why would I ever submit to some kind of Alliance review when those ****ers wouldn't even give me the time of day when I needed it most? Why acknowledge the Alliance in ANY WAY if I'm pro-Cerberus?

Even if you're not pro-Cerberus, the story manouvers Shepard in such a way that Shepard should really have no incecntive to go back to earth to stand in farce trial while the Reapers are invading the galaxy. Seriously, the whole thing reeks of sheer stupidity, but alas, BW needed a nice dramatic opening sequence for ME3 and having Shepard sipping 12 year old Scotch and swapping stories about Miranda's ass while overseeing Cerberus constructing giant Collector-inspired superweapons probably didn't cut it. Or I don't know, Shepard doing ANYTHING but waste time sitting on trial while the whole galaxy is at stake.

Nevermind the fact that if you're reinstated as a Spectre, it STILL doesn't mean anything, just like in the first game because for some reason Shepard still has to answer to EVERYBODY- instead of simply the Council. Which is who Spectres answer to, and only to. At least, we are led to believe this. When Hackett says you have to go back to Earth to stand trial, as a Spectre, should should be able to simply say "No."

So we're railroaded once again.

3. Shepard is an idiot when the plot calls for it.

     No one on Virmire thought to start up an Omni-tool and record the Q&A with Soverign? Ok, fool me once, shame on you. ARRIVAL- once again we talk to a Reaper, and does Shepard record it? Sure didn't mention to Hackett if she did. Fool me twice...

Horizon- what the heck is up with this conversation? Seriously. I'm not even going to start on the Council.

In conclusion, the truth is that the story post-ME1 is a complete mess. The truth is that I enjoy the ME games more for the simple 'epic' feel of them, the characters and the gameplay- the story, in the end, is now secondary. ME3 appears as if it is going to be a good galaxy-spanning bit of adventure, but I think that if I look too closely at the story, my head will hurt and I won't enjoy the experience as much.

I'm sure this has all been said to death, but I wanted to get it off my chest anyway.

[Nero Narmeril]

So what the heck was Soverign wasting all that time for? Why didn't he simply signal his Reaper buddies and be all like: "Yeah, so the Citadel relay isn't going to open, why don't y'all head on in to the Alpha relay and we'll do it the old fashioned way. Otherwise, I gotta like take 20 years to manipulate things into position to even have a chance at opening the Citadel relay again."

Surprise attack is better than slowly moving into Galaxy.

NOW, if you're anti-Cerberus the whole way, and you play LotSB- you are FORCED to defend them to Tela Vasir. This drove me nuts, there was no option to say "I know who they are and I'll be dealing with them soon enough", your Paragon line is some crap about knowing what they've done and not caring. Not caring? I certainly did care about Admiral Kahoku and all the rest of the crap Cerberus pulled in ME1 and I'm stuck wondering "Who's Shepard is this, she isn't mine."

Yeah, my sole survivor soul was pissed off that time.

[Someone With Mass]

Shepard has always been an idiot throughout the games.

Comparing the krogan rebellions to the First Contact War? STUPID!

Not even trying to contact the Alliance to clear things up in ME2 and get them off his back? Idiotic.

Oh, and the Reapers wanted to take the Citadel first through its relay so they could lock everyone out of the mass relay network. They can't do that if they're taking the long way.

They're simply exhausting all the other options first.

[KainrycKarr]

A complete mess? Seriously? The way you've dissected it, nearly ANY sci-fi story would be a complete mess.

This is a joke.

[SNascimento]

Is this one more of those topics: ME1's story was great ME2's was bad? Because arguments in this kind of things tends to be horrible, this for once: No one on Virmire thought to start up an Omni-tool and record the Q&A with Soverign? Ok, fool me once, shame on you. ARRIVAL- once again we talk to a Reaper, and does Shepard record it? Sure didn't mention to Hackett if she did. Fool me twice...
.
What would be the point in this? Prove the Reapers exist? I mean, Sovereign attack the cidatel, the council had access to its parts and even after that they choose to ignore this threat. Anyone thinks an audio record would change that?

Modifié par SNascimento, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[BobTheAndroid]

The railroading to the incompetent side (Cerberus) was really annoying.

The Arrival DLC made ME1- s plot pointless.

The less we think about  the human Reaper and Harbinger the better. How Shepard knows that it' s name is Harbinger?

Yep Shepard' s an idiot when tha plot needs her to be:
The Collectors Prothean origin? We wont tell it to anyone.
Derelict Reaper? Detto!
And what use of this Collector base and this Human Reaper would be? BOOOOOMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AdmiralCheez]

Every time people fuss about ME2's story, I remember Benezia's dumb death speech and the mind-controlling plant that spat out zombie clones and space babes. And let's not forget how we were railroaded into recruiting Tali and Liara, into becoming a Spectre, into stealing the Normandy, how absolutely contrived Virmire was...

I'm not saying I didn't have problems with ME2's story, or that one was better than the other, but seriously, ME1 wasn't exactly perfect.

ANYWAY, I really am just in it for the ride. The gameplay, the characters, the universe--it's the experience that matters most to me.

[MisterJB]

Gemini1179 wrote...

So... plan B was to gather allies ie Geth and Saren, indoctrinate them, use Saren to search the galaxy for a secret way onto the citadel (which he already has full access to- If you're going to say they didn't know what the Conduit actually was, why wasn't there a sweet face-slapping moment when Saren arrived at the Citadel and realized all his hard work was essentially for nothing?)

Even if he had full acess to the Citadel, the Council Chambers where the Citadel's master control unit is located is heavily guarded at all times. C-Sec would take him down before he could give control of the Citadel to Sovereign. The Conduit allowed to introduce a Geth army directly into the Citadel without having to deal with the Council. The Geth army served to open a path for Saren and buy him time.

Skip ahead to Arrival. Turns out, the Reapers only needed TWO YEARS to fly into the galaxy and have full access to the relay network. So what the heck was Soverign wasting all that time for? Why didn't he simply signal his Reaper buddies and be all like: "Yeah, so the Citadel relay isn't going to open, why don't y'all head on in to the Alpha relay and we'll do it the old fashioned way. Otherwise, I gotta like take 20 years to manipulate things into position to even have a chance at opening the Citadel relay again."

The Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy until the next Harvest of galactic civilization. Who knows how much energy they had to spend just to fly to the Alpha Relay?
It was not until Sovereign was destroyed that they acknowledge it as the only possible solution.

Oh, but in the meantime, Harbinger the "wacky scientist" Reaper thought he'd covertly start abducting Humans, (needing MILLIONS, mind you) liquify them and stick them in a baby Reaper. When Shepard blows that plan to dust, Harbinger says "We will find another way." Another way to what? Make a Human Reaper? Conquor the galaxy? What?

Just because it has not been fully explained yet, that does not mean the story has a problem. We also don't yet know what Harbinger meant by "That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction"

IF, however, you like Cerberus' style, you can totally get on board with them through ME2 and follow TIM's leadership, keeping the Collector base and furthering Humanity's strength in the Galaxy- Then comes Arrival again- this time to railroad you back to Earth. Why would I ever submit to some kind of Alliance review when those ****ers wouldn't even give me the time of day when I needed it most? Why acknowledge the Alliance in ANY WAY if I'm pro-Cerberus?

Even if you're not pro-Cerberus, the story manouvers Shepard in such a way that Shepard should really have no incecntive to go back to earth to stand in farce trial while the Reapers are invading the galaxy.
Nevermind the fact that if you're reinstated as a Spectre, it STILL doesn't mean anything, just like in the first game because for some reason Shepard still has to answer to EVERYBODY- instead of simply the Council. Which is who Spectres answer to, and only to. At least, we are led to believe this. When Hackett says you have to go back to Earth to stand trial, as a Spectre, should should be able to simply say "No."

You want an incentive? How about the Batarians will start a war unless they see the Alliance punishing Shepard?

[Nero Narmeril]

The Arrival DLC made ME1- s plot pointless.

Why pointless? Without Sovereign Reapers can't gain access to Citadel and can't start blitzkrieg. So, they have to move their asses or something and attacking Galaxy normally. Human Reaper was never intented to be Sovereign's replacement.

[YNation913]

Yet another perverse set of "opinions" on an internet board...

[Candidate 88766]

Gemini1179 wrote...


Skip ahead to Arrival. Turns out, the Reapers only needed TWO YEARS to fly into the galaxy and have full access to the relay network. So what the heck was Soverign wasting all that time for? Why didn't he simply signal his Reaper buddies and be all like: "Yeah, so the Citadel relay isn't going to open, why don't y'all head on in to the Alpha relay and we'll do it the old fashioned way. Otherwise, I gotta like take 20 years to manipulate things into position to even have a chance at opening the Citadel relay again."

We can assume that the only way way Sovereign can communicate with the other Reapers is through the Citadel. This is backed up by the fact that Sovereign was so determined to reach the Citadel and the fact that the Reapers only woke up after Sovereign reached the Citadel. Either that, or the energy required to travel to the galaxy without the aid of Relays is risky for even the Reapers. We know from the codex that travelling at FTL speeds generates huge amounts of static electrical charge - charge which cannot be discharged in a vacuum. 2 years worth of static buildup is risky to say the least.

Also, why would they hide more than 2 years away from the galaxy? It would make very little sense to have this elaborate plan but then if it goes wrong the Reapers must then spend decades trying to reach the galaxy again - flying for 2 years at what we can assume were FTL speeds just to reach the edge of the galaxy meant that the Reapers were ridiculously far away from the galaxy anyway. Given that distance, I think we can assume that communication between Sovereign and the other reapers would be at least tricky, if not impossible without the Citadel.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[MisterJB]

BobTheAndroid wrote...
 How Shepard knows that it' s name is Harbinger?

Because he keeps shouting it every time he controls a Collector?

"I am the Harbinger of your ascension!"

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:42 .

[BobTheAndroid]

SNascimento wrote...

Is this one more of those topics: ME1's story was great ME2's was bad? Because arguments in this kind of things tends to be horrible, this for once: No one on Virmire thought to start up an Omni-tool and record the Q&A with Soverign? Ok, fool me once, shame on you. ARRIVAL- once again we talk to a Reaper, and does Shepard record it? Sure didn't mention to Hackett if she did. Fool me twice...
.
What would be the point in this? Prove the Reapers exist? I mean, Sovereign attack the cidatel, the council had access to its parts and even after that they choose to ignore this threat. Anyone thinks an audio record would change that?

The Council was retconned to not believe in the Reapers because that was needed for the Cerberus railroading.

I really hope they were just playing hard to get with you and they will acknowledge that in the next game!

[GMagnum]

hey how do we kno da main character last name is shepard i never saw any proof

[Annihilator27]

Hopefully we dont get alot of emails lol.

[Anacronian Stryx]

It's it is pretty essential to the reapers to find out WTF went wrong with plan A which is pretty much what Sovereign spend the most of ME 1 doing.

As far as Sovereign knows at the beginning of ME 1 somebody has sabotaged plan A, But have they also done something to plan B? "whoever did this did they also know about our backdoor?..no not good we have to discover whats behind this"

And complains like "they could have been in the galaxy in just two years" doesn't make much sense - Reapers lives for million of years 2 years or a 100 doesn't matter one bit to them.

Once Sovereign discovers what went wrong it really had no reason to not attack and call it's brethren to get plan A rolling.

[Sgt Stryker]

BobTheAndroid wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

Is this one more of those topics: ME1's story was great ME2's was bad? Because arguments in this kind of things tends to be horrible, this for once: No one on Virmire thought to start up an Omni-tool and record the Q&A with Soverign? Ok, fool me once, shame on you. ARRIVAL- once again we talk to a Reaper, and does Shepard record it? Sure didn't mention to Hackett if she did. Fool me twice...
.
What would be the point in this? Prove the Reapers exist? I mean, Sovereign attack the cidatel, the council had access to its parts and even after that they choose to ignore this threat. Anyone thinks an audio record would change that?

The Council was retconned to not believe in the Reapers because that was needed for the Cerberus railroading.

I really hope they were just playing hard to get with you and they will acknowledge that in the next game!

Oh look, politicians not following through with the promises they made. Where have we seen that before? Oh right, real life.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Gotta agree with the OP - don't get me wrong, loved both games and am eagerly anticipating the final installment - but there are just so many face palming plot moments that it makes me want to so some face palming of my own at whoever signed off on these decisions - you guys are better than this!

I suspect that the problem may have to do with the way that the stories themselves may be developed. It is possible that the "Powers that Be" create the major plot points and then the writers have to fill in the blanks. "Wtf" moments happen because the "powers" think the "awesomeness" of the experience outweighs the importance of logic and internal consistency. Since most people who buy the game only play it once (many not even completing it), it is only die hard fans who notice just how irrational certain required plot points become.

It is sad because there is just so much in the ME series that is brilliant and often thought provoking; but it is what it is. No one ever got poor underestimating the taste or intelligence of the consumer...

[BobTheAndroid]

Nero Narmeril wrote...

The Arrival DLC made ME1- s plot pointless.

Why pointless? Without Sovereign Reapers can't gain access to Citadel and can't start blitzkrieg. So, they have to move their asses or something and attacking Galaxy normally. Human Reaper was never intented to be Sovereign's replacement.

If Sovereign and Saren would have contacted the rest of the Reapers and than waited 2 years for them and then they executed the Counduit plan whit the entire Reaper fleet backing them up, the galaxy would have been FRACKED.

If Harbinger was able to contact the Collectors, than Soveregn could have been able to contact the Reapers.

Sorry for my english!

[Someone With Mass]

By the way, Legion can tell you what the Reapers want.

[Lucky Thirteen]

BobTheAndroid wrote...

The Arrival DLC made ME1- s plot pointless.

How so? The Reapers aren't suppose to keep trying and have back up plans? They've been doing this for millions of years and I doubt even the Protheans were the first to try and stop them.  Why do you think the Reapers are so cocky about what they do and tell Shepard he/she is wasting their time.


The Citadel Relay was the easy, quickest way into the galaxy for the Reapers. After closeing the Citadel Relay on them they basically had to take the long, slow route over millions of lightyears from where ever they are coming from. The Bahak Relay was the closest relay to the point where they would enter the galaxy. The relay would have then allowed them to move from that point quickly. So with the Arrival DLC the Reapers are already in the galaxy. Shepard just delayed them again because they have to travel thousands light years to the next relay that will allow them quick access to the rest of the galaxy, which will take many months. It's just predicting the next relay they will try to use is difficult, maybe they will go to the closest one, maybe they will use an undiscovered one. 

Delaying the Reapers is all Shepard can really do.