133 réponses à ce sujet

[MrSuperCrazyAwesome]

I'm pretty sure that you could do this with any plot, even Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. Seriously? The Empire messes up that exhaust port thing twice? Ok, the second time it was incomplete, but what kind of galaxy spanning empire has troops incompetent and few enough to lose to furry little dudes with rocks guarding the shield generator which is the only thing protecting your empire from complete destruction? And why did the empire die with the Death Star? Let's instead focus on the fact that the Rebels did some awesome things. Let's focus on the fact that Shepard has already defeated insurmountable odds at many occasions and that he is totally under the reaper's cold, metallic skin. Or the other awesome things that he does, even if at times he is a bit stupid. But honestly, Shepard wouldn't logically want to ditch Cerberus and go back to the Alliance. Them and the council basically denied Shepard's claims entirely, while Cerberus is giving him practically unlimited resources to achieve his goal of stopping the Reapers.

[Il Divo]

Ghost-621 wrote...
How cute  none taken though!

ME1 didn't have the "What the- why did- I thought that didn't work that way.." moments that ME2 did. For the pew-pew fanboys, yes, ME1's story and lore would have been percieved as heavy-handed, and had they actually kept up the quality in ME2, it would have scared all of them away for ME3.
If only... one can dream...one can dream.

So lack of intelligence was the reason for what you perceive as bad story-telling? I think  you've already given the ME1 fans too much credit. No writer purposely designs a story badly. There was nothing contained in ME1 that a cod player couldn't understand, much as the RPG community would like to think that is the case. This seems more a case of "What I enjoy makes me smarter than you!". Let's keep things in perspective for a second: we're not reading philosophy, or following quantum mechanics, or studying Shakespeare. We're playing a video game.
 
And I'd argue ME1 possessed a great number of moments where logic, science, and codex entries were thrown completely out the window.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 novembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[DeathDragon185]

I enjoy CoD for it's fun arcade style gameplay. I also however enjoy RPG's for their stories.(however the same old "save the world" forumal has to change)

[slimgrin]

I think we all need to remember Bioware is taking things one game at a time. Character or plot consistency is clearly not a priority with them.

[SLooPPy JOE]

Anyone know a plot that can't be picked apart like this??

[aTrueFool]

Gemini1179 wrote...

I... I can't even think about the Council right now, it's such a can of worms. These are the same people who say:

A. The Geth built Soverign

B. Saren, an organic being was able to use 'charisma' against the Geth. I don't know about you, but my computer rarely ever listens to me no matter how nice I am to it.

C. Saren then used said influence to convince the Geth that the ship they 'obviously' built was ACTUALLY an ancient machine God telling them to pledge themselves to him.

D. That the testimony of a 'traumatized' dock worker who had no connection to Anderson, Shepard, Nihilus or Saren would make a suspect witness. He would actually make a perfect witness.

E. The audio recording that Saren tried so desperately to have destroyed that was found on a random geth by a Quarian with no previous connection to the Alliance et al was a clever fabrication by Saren.


Ungh.... here I go again, I've got to stop now...

Just a thought on A and C.

If a Geth is just software and has no body, why would a Geth God have one?

If it dosn't have a body maybe it's followers could build it one.

[GMagnum]

slimgrin wrote...

I think we all need to remember Bioware is taking things one game at a time. Character or plot consistency is clearly not a priority with them.

and dis is y slimgrin is mah boi

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I dunno, my biggest problem was a lack of purpose or motive for the reapers, which strangely made the plot of ME2 more enjoyable than 1 for me despite what everyone says, since I was thinking of the collectors as the enemy instead of the reapers.

[onelifecrisis]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Good bit of dialogue going on in this thread. It wasn't mean to be a "ME1 story vs ME2 story" thread. There are points made that if you look closely enough at ME1 the story there has issues- and that's true. The difference with ME1 was that it was all new and the 'wow' factor of the universe and lore covers its shortcomings. ME2 unfortunately doesn't have that luxury and so story issues really start to stick out. That said, I do love the combat, characters and dialogue in both games so much that the strength of the story doesn't have to hold everything together.

I really just needed to vent about the railroading and that bit with Vasir. That really rubbed me the wrong way when I was playing LotSB.

The rest of it is me hoping that we're not going to get a bit from the Council saying "we actually believed you all along but..."<- that will drive me nuts. If the alien council is still alive I really want a chance to let the Turian Councilor burn and to hit on the Asari Councilor... what? I've got a thing for her.

I think pretty much everyone here does. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
We can assume that the only way way Sovereign can communicate with the other Reapers is through the Citadel. This is backed up by the fact that Sovereign was so determined to reach the Citadel and the fact that the Reapers only woke up after Sovereign reached the Citadel. Either that, or the energy required to travel to the galaxy without the aid of Relays is risky for even the Reapers. We know from the codex that travelling at FTL speeds generates huge amounts of static electrical charge - charge which cannot be discharged in a vacuum. 2 years worth of static buildup is risky to say the least.

No. Reapers cna clearly communicate across any distance. Take a loo kat Harby - he's in dark space and heconstantly balabbers with you. Quantum entanglement seesm to eb standard for reapers. Hence, distance doesn't matter.

And yes..ME2 story sucks donkey balls. Big time.
It doesn't even matter if you're anti-Cerberus of Pro-Cerberus. The game ravages you from behind either way.

[onelifecrisis]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

iakus wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

I don't think that matters much your coming directly from combat and he had just linked with the second beacon.  Granted his teammates should have recorded it the fact that they didn't doesn't seem far fetch.  In hindsight sure but at the time during my first play through I wasn't thinking "record this dude" at all.  

Talk to Ashley after Virmire.  Their hardsuits did record everything.  Making the Council's stupidity even more mind boggling

Well, to be fair, the only useful information you could get from Virmire was the conversation with Sovereign's hologram, and the conversation with Saren. Mr. Air-Quotes could have easily dismissed both of these as more of Saren's mindgames, combined with a VI created by Saren to troll Shepard.

So Saren had a fake reaper VI installed at his SECRET BASE on the off-chance that Shepard might break in and talk to it?

Anyway, when it comes to the whole Council debate there are several things that really bug me:
1) The council never offer any explanation for WHY Saren did what he did. There's no motive provided by their theory, and they don't seem to think that's a problem.
2) If the council are sane then there has to be some limit, or breaking point, to their denial. Yet some people on BSN argue that no amount of proof is really proof. Take this line of thinking to it's logical conclusion, and in ME3 the council will stand there watching the reapers lay waste to everything, and they'll say "damn, that's a pretty good holographic projection you've got there, Shepard".

[CptData]

Just gimme the opportunity to be part of the writers team for next ME trilogy and ... nevermind. I'm not that good.

However, I like the ME-story, despite the fact it lacks some deeper stuff. Actually, ME!universe is only fully explored when doing any side missions instead of just following the main story. The main story is quite flat:

ME: bad dude uses bad army to wreak havoc but is controlled by a big bad ancient ship that turns out to be a Cthulhu machine and gets redeemed (or killed) at the end
Works as a primary storyline

ME2: 90% recruit some more or less psychopathic ppl for 10% kick some Collector's ass.
Err ... yes. Some side missions have more story, but at least you learn more about the characters.
So ME2 is basically a game where you get friends and learn them knowing. Or so.
Not the "best" storyline.

ME3: Defeat invasion of an Cthulhu-Armada. Gather as much allies as possible. Win. Or fail.
Intependence Day anyone?
Works for me as a very basic storyline.

Just in case ME gets a reboot, I'd like to see far more story. 20 hours gameplay at least for main storyline and different paths for different goals. More. More complicated. Deeper. More emotional. A hero that goes through hell, not just by shooting foes but also emotionally. I wanna see a crying Shepard, one that breaks down when no one is watching. A Shepard that feels guilt and shame ... or joy and lust. A Shepard that feels jealous if s/he can't get his/her LI ... you name it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MrSuperCrazyAwesome wrote...

I'm pretty sure that you could do this with any plot, even Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. Seriously? The Empire messes up that exhaust port thing twice? Ok, the second time it was incomplete, but what kind of galaxy spanning empire has troops incompetent and few enough to lose to furry little dudes with rocks guarding the shield generator which is the only thing protecting your empire from complete destruction? And why did the empire die with the Death Star? Let's instead focus on the fact that the Rebels did some awesome things. Let's focus on the fact that Shepard has already defeated insurmountable odds at many occasions and that he is totally under the reaper's cold, metallic skin. Or the other awesome things that he does, even if at times he is a bit stupid. But honestly, Shepard wouldn't logically want to ditch Cerberus and go back to the Alliance. Them and the council basically denied Shepard's claims entirely, while Cerberus is giving him practically unlimited resources to achieve his goal of stopping the Reapers.

Depends. There will be a flaw or two in almost any story/plot, but good stories try to avoid them.
Badly written stories have many, many such flaws.


As for your examples.
The second Death star didn't have an exhaust port. They literally flew in trough the unfinished section.
I will grant you the incompetence of the ground troops. Of course, why you use Star Wars as an example is beyond me. I dont' think everyone put it up as an exmalpe of a great writing....

LOTR? What are you reffering too (and if it's the eagels, then no. That's not a plot hole)

[sorentoft]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...


Well, to be fair, the only useful information you could get from Virmire was the conversation with Sovereign's hologram, and the conversation with Saren. Mr. Air-Quotes could have easily dismissed both of these as more of Saren's mindgames, combined with a VI created by Saren to troll Shepard.

I... I can't even think about the Council right now, it's such a can of worms. These are the same people who say:

A. The Geth built Soverign

B. Saren, an organic being was able to use 'charisma' against the Geth. I don't know about you, but my computer rarely ever listens to me no matter how nice I am to it.

C. Saren then used said influence to convince the Geth that the ship they 'obviously' built was ACTUALLY an ancient machine God telling them to pledge themselves to him.

D. That the testimony of a 'traumatized' dock worker who had no connection to Anderson, Shepard, Nihilus or Saren would make a suspect witness. He would actually make a perfect witness.

E. The audio recording that Saren tried so desperately to have destroyed that was found on a random geth by a Quarian with no previous connection to the Alliance et al was a clever fabrication by Saren.


Ungh.... here I go again, I've got to stop now...

Well. In the books the council is put forward as quite the politicians. Sometimes the three apparently discuss what they say before each interaction. It would not surprise me if they had just put the Turian forward to nudge Shepard in order to test his conviction. Ambassador Goyle found this out the hard way in book one.

Modifié par sorentoft, 03 novembre 2011 - 10:44 .

[N7 Spectre525]

Ghost-621 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Ghost-621 wrote...

The more you cater, the less intelligence a game's story can have. ME1's heavy-handed story and lore would have scared off countless GOW and COD fanboys in ME2, and especially in ME3, which seems to be all about the pew-pew.

No offense, but if you think there was anything remotely complex or difficult about ME1's story...well, let's just say I don't think it's the GoW/CoD fans who have the problem.

How cute  none taken though!

ME1 didn't have the "What the- why did- I thought that didn't work that way.." moments that ME2 did. For the pew-pew fanboys, yes, ME1's story and lore would have been percieved as heavy-handed, and had they actually kept up the quality in ME2, it would have scared all of them away for ME3.

If only... one can dream...one can dream.

Because its inconceivable that someone could actually like Gears and Mass Effect ...yes there are actually those of us that play more than just Mass Effect...strange, I know. This snobbish attitude that persists on these boards amazes me. 

[Chloe_W1971]

CptData wrote...

Just in case ME gets a reboot, I'd like to see far more story. 20 hours gameplay at least for main storyline and different paths for different goals. More. More complicated. Deeper. More emotional. A hero that goes through hell, not just by shooting foes but also emotionally. I wanna see a crying Shepard, one that breaks down when no one is watching. A Shepard that feels guilt and shame ... or joy and lust. A Shepard that feels jealous if s/he can't get his/her LI ... you name it.

I would love to see this, but I don't think it's going to happen in a computer game anytime soon. The pew-pew crowd would probably revolt, as having the protagonist go through emotional hell would likely be seen as un-manly or something. Still, I <3 the idea.

[Gabey5]

Mass effect 2 was essentially

80% recruitment
15% Collectors
5% Setting Cerberus up as a powerful foe

[Xeranx]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Every time people fuss about ME2's story, I remember Benezia's dumb death speech and the mind-controlling plant that spat out zombie clones and space babes. And let's not forget how we were railroaded into recruiting Tali and Liara, into becoming a Spectre, into stealing the Normandy, how absolutely contrived Virmire was...

I'm not saying I didn't have problems with ME2's story, or that one was better than the other, but seriously, ME1 wasn't exactly perfect.

ANYWAY, I really am just in it for the ride. The gameplay, the characters, the universe--it's the experience that matters most to me.

You mean the dumb death speech where she claims "they always said there would be a..."?  What does that have to do with anything?

The mind controlling plant that offered Saren the cipher through Shiala (who was apparently cured of Sovereign's indoctrination as a result of being held in thrall) who then used Shiala clones to defend itself/attack intruders?  I know we couldn't focus too much on that since we still had Saren to stop, but I wish it came up in ME2.  Then again, Shepard never was really allowed to try to "find a way to stop the Reapers" as (s)he intended to do at the end of ME.

Railroaded into taking the capable young woman who happened to wait for a lone geth soldier, incapacitate said soldier, and remove it's voice logs that depict Saren and Benezia talking about "the conduit" -- i.e. giving us at least some clue as to what he [Saren] was doing in ME?  Did you forget that the majority of enemies we fought against were geth?  Our initial enemies on Eden Prime were Geth.

Railroaded into taking Liara who was Benezia's daughter?  Hmm...I guess it's a real stupid idea to locate someone who might be close to a member of Saren's team.  It's not like we couldn't learn something from her right?  Initially that's the goal.  You know, after typing this, I guess I agree with you.  Getting Liara was entirely stupid.

Railroaded into becoming a Spectre.  I guess there's a bit of that there, but it's not the writers doing it.  
Udina: "What about Shepard?"  Followed by comments made by Hackett and Anderson talking about what makes Shepard a good choice for "something"...oh wait, we find out minutes later that the "something" is Spectre-dom.  As an Alliance soldier, Shepard's job is to follow orders.  So being informed that (s)he will be put up for the Spectre position isn't something that can be wriggled out of.

Railroaded into stealing the Normandy:  I agree.  Shepard and company should have gone down to Flux to drink and dance the night away because the threat was probably going to be taken care of.  We didn't see a Reaper or talk to it or talk to Saren who was just maniacal enough to think he might be a danger to everyone with the way he was talking.  Nope, get the sisters in Flux to get us a few rounds.

Virmire contrived?  The death of either Ashley or Kaidan?  Yes.  As a whole?  Please.

Next you'll say we got railroaded into being an Alliance Marine.  I mean there was no hint that Shepard actually joined willingly, right?  Shepard was drafted.<_<

[KainrycKarr]

mango smoothie wrote...

To me Mass Effect is very much like how TV show stories go. Mass Effect 1 sets up the main plot for the rest of the series, introduces characters and factions. Mass Effect 2 is like that one season of a TV show that the main season story line isn't the best, but starts a whole bunch of subplots that set up for the next season. Mass Effect 3 will be concluding all these subplots, but in a way that follows the main storyline.

Really good way to put it.
I pray that Bioware doesn't listen to the people that make these threads.

[Arkitekt]

Yeah, I mean wow.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Man, it really sucks to be you guys. Nitpicking and going on about contrivances and bad writing and such when I just play the games, I enjoy them for what they offer, and look forward to more. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to obsessively analyze and scrutinize everything I do recreationally.

[Arkitekt]

Watch Smudboy on youtube. Be glad to have a completely different brain than the author.

[The Spamming Troll]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Man, it really sucks to be you guys. Nitpicking and going on about contrivances and bad writing and such when I just play the games, I enjoy them for what they offer, and look forward to more. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to obsessively analyze and scrutinize everything I do recreationally.

you =/= them