133 réponses à ce sujet

[Gemini1179]

Arkitekt wrote...

Watch Smudboy on youtube. Be glad to have a completely different brain than the author.

I can't listen to smudboy anymore. He makes a few good points the rest is just patting himself on the back. You can't disect "ammo powers" because they are a gameplay mechanic, not a logical story mechanic.

I didn't go through the games and purposely disect them. I've played ME1 and ME2 completely through 10+ times each. I love the games. However, when you play them that much things simply start to 'stick out' and start clawing on your psyche.

You end up asking all kinds of questions like: why isn't the cypher- a great story potential mechanic- not really addressed in ME2? How was it so easy for Shepard to 'get over' being dead for two years?

If anyone wants to read a PHENOMINAL fanfic that DOES address these issues and more, I suggest you read "How Saves the Hero?" by Kudara on fanfiction.net.

If I was going to make ME2 into a tv series, I'd use her story as a basis for the script.

[Sgt Stryker]

onelifecrisis wrote...

2) If the council are sane then there has to be some limit, or breaking point, to their denial. Yet some people on BSN argue that no amount of proof is really proof. Take this line of thinking to it's logical conclusion, and in ME3 the council will stand there watching the reapers lay waste to everything, and they'll say "damn, that's a pretty good holographic projection you've got there, Shepard".

Honestly, that would not surprise me in the least.

[CptBomBom00]

Yes I agree with that last one too, and I think whole council is mentally disabled.

[The Spamming Troll]

Il Divo wrote...

Ghost-621 wrote...
How cute  none taken though!

ME1 didn't have the "What the- why did- I thought that didn't work that way.." moments that ME2 did. For the pew-pew fanboys, yes, ME1's story and lore would have been percieved as heavy-handed, and had they actually kept up the quality in ME2, it would have scared all of them away for ME3.
If only... one can dream...one can dream.

So lack of intelligence was the reason for what you perceive as bad story-telling? I think  you've already given the ME1 fans too much credit. No writer purposely designs a story badly. There was nothing contained in ME1 that a cod player couldn't understand, much as the RPG community would like to think that is the case. This seems more a case of "What I enjoy makes me smarter than you!". Let's keep things in perspective for a second: we're not reading philosophy, or following quantum mechanics, or studying Shakespeare. We're playing a video game.
 
And I'd argue ME1 possessed a great number of moments where logic, science, and codex entries were thrown completely out the window.

ME1 > ME2.

fact!
 

[Someone With Mass]

ME1's story only worked because they kept throwing plot conveniences at you the second it seemed faulty.

[Rogue Unit]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Ghost-621 wrote...
How cute  none taken though!

ME1 didn't have the "What the- why did- I thought that didn't work that way.." moments that ME2 did. For the pew-pew fanboys, yes, ME1's story and lore would have been percieved as heavy-handed, and had they actually kept up the quality in ME2, it would have scared all of them away for ME3.
If only... one can dream...one can dream.

So lack of intelligence was the reason for what you perceive as bad story-telling? I think  you've already given the ME1 fans too much credit. No writer purposely designs a story badly. There was nothing contained in ME1 that a cod player couldn't understand, much as the RPG community would like to think that is the case. This seems more a case of "What I enjoy makes me smarter than you!". Let's keep things in perspective for a second: we're not reading philosophy, or following quantum mechanics, or studying Shakespeare. We're playing a video game.
 
And I'd argue ME1 possessed a great number of moments where logic, science, and codex entries were thrown completely out the window.

ME2 > ME1.

Opinion!
 

There ya' go.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ME1's story only worked because they kept throwing plot conveniences at you the second it seemed faulty.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I can play too!

"ME2's story only worked because they kept throwing waves of mercs at you the second you go 'Wait, why am I doing this again?'"

[Someone With Mass]

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

[Anacronian Stryx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

yeah because there were NO planet scanning in ME 2... wait?

[Il Divo]

Ah, the ME1 vs. ME2 debates. This is bringing back some old memories, like the 400+ page "Disappointed with ME2" thread. Good times.

[Nashiktal]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

yeah because there were NO planet scanning in ME 2... wait?

At least the mako required active thought processes. With planet scanning I practically went braindead with boredom. when it came to planet scanning I was really starting to wish there was something to do, maybe a mini game or something. At least with the Mako I could shoot the cannon at random things.. At least with the mako I got to see some pretty sites, or had to work out how to climb a mountain.

Speaking of which, those "trinkets" are apparently getting some sort of effect for ME3 according to a dev, so go figure.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Nashiktal wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

yeah because there were NO planet scanning in ME 2... wait?

At least the mako required active thought processes. With planet scanning I practically went braindead with boredom when it came to planet scanning. At least with the mako I got to see some pretty sites, or had to work out how to climb a mountain.

Speaking of which, those "trinkets" are apparently getting some sort of effect for ME3 according to a dev, so go figure.

And at least you could completely skip collecting the trinkets in ME 1 without it having any consequence, In ME 2 you have to scan planets if you want resauses to upgrade.

[Nashiktal]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

yeah because there were NO planet scanning in ME 2... wait?

At least the mako required active thought processes. With planet scanning I practically went braindead with boredom when it came to planet scanning. At least with the mako I got to see some pretty sites, or had to work out how to climb a mountain.

Speaking of which, those "trinkets" are apparently getting some sort of effect for ME3 according to a dev, so go figure.

And at least you could completely skip collecting the trinkets in ME 1 without it having any consequence, In ME 2 you have to scan planets if you want resauses to upgrade.

On the bright side though, with a little help from gibbed, we don't have to do anyting anymore! 

[The-Person]

The reason why the soverign did not communicate with the rest of reapers was because they were not activated yet. They are in hibernation in deep space until soverign wakes them up.

[staindgrey]

While I wouldn't call the ME timeline and story thus far a "complete mess", I will say that ME2's lack of true direction is the cause of most plotholes.

In ME1, we were given a very clear threat: the Reapers. We knew there was going to be a sequel, and we knew it was going to be about stopping the Reapers when they inevitably attack our beloved galaxy. It was simply a question of how, when, and eventually, if we were lucky, why.

Enter ME2: What was its purpose? The Reapers still aren't here. But the Collectors are. Who are the Collectors? They're bad people abducting tons of humans. Why? Because... er... Reapers!

So we save what humans we can, destroy the Human Reaper before it's even close to complete, and kill the Collectors. Awesome.

But where does that leave us?

...Right where ME1 left us. The Reapers are coming, and until Arrival, we still don't know when or how. We just know they're coming and we'll have to fight them in the sequel.

So when looking at it that way, what was the POINT in the Collectors attracting the attention of the galaxy by abducting hundreds of thousands of humans? Couldn't they just wait a bit? Couldn't the Reapers have come (Arrival) during Shepard's hunt for the Collectors, thus distracting whatever human threat while they took the back door straight to Earth?

ME2 offered a lot of character interaction, a huge elaboration on Cerberus and what happened to the Protheans, and succeeded in at least advancing the timeline. Other than that... It pretty much didn't change anything. If ME2 didn't exist, and ME3 was ME2, what would change?

There wouldn't have been Collectors, Shepard wouldn't have "died", we'd have less companions to be pals with, and Shepard wouldn't be as intimate with Cerberus. Other than that, nothing. We wouldn't be missing anything; we'd be at the point in which the Reapers come, and we fight them.

Yes, there are lots of smaller scale subplots at play, such as Omega's status as the pinnacle of the Terminus, the Batarians on the verge of war with Earth, the ever growing problems on Tuchanka and Illium, etc. But in the grand plot? ME2 advanced virtually nothing. Hence all the gaps in the story-- they aren't necessarily "plot holes", but rather, gaps that aren't really filled, and we aren't sure why they even exist. Do we need to know why the Reapers wanted a human version of themselves? Do we need to know why the Collectors even existed? Is Shepard's "death" going to influence anything whatsoever?

We'll find answers, I'm sure. But none of them are essential. The overall threat remains unchanged whether or not we have that knowledge. "We fight or we die, that's the plan." As ridiculous as that quote is, it actually sums up the gaps in ME2 pretty well. We're left with, "Who the **** cares? They're REAPERS! Kill them or we die!"

[/rant]

[111987]

@staindgray

Don't be too quick to dismiss the rest of ME2. At least until we see ME3. The foundation for the Reapers defeat may be tied in to the events of ME2. For example, ME2 set up many storylines that need to be resolved that will likely impact the war effort (dark energy? Quarian/Geth situation? Collector Base? Liara as the Shadow Broker? Wreav vs. Wrex leadership on Tuchanka?)

[Someone With Mass]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

yeah because there were NO planet scanning in ME 2... wait?

Takes about a minute to scan one planet. Let's see. Drive around like a clueless idiot looking for trinkets for hours or just sit back and let it all come to you, while it actually serves a purpose...hmm...

[Nashiktal]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

At least ME2 didn't try to justify something on the same scale of driving around on a barren wasteland for fifteen minutes while picking up trinkets in a rover that had little to no self-control..

yeah because there were NO planet scanning in ME 2... wait?

Takes about a minute to scan one planet. Let's see. Drive around like a clueless idiot looking for trinkets for hours or just sit back and let it all come to you, while it actually serves a purpose...hmm...

Purpose =/= fun. I had more fun driving around like an idiot on the mako than I ever did staring at a spinning planet.

Plus you didn't have to drive around on the mako to get the best ending. Didn't like the mako? You were only forced to use it a few times during the actual main story, and there were plenty of sidequests that didn't require the mako.

Planet scanning? Boring, and you have to do it to get a good ending.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 04 novembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[111987]

I think both the Mako and planet scanning were flawed ideas...not that this is all that related to the OP.

[staindgrey]

111987 wrote...

@staindgray

Don't be too quick to dismiss the rest of ME2. At least until we see ME3. The foundation for the Reapers defeat may be tied in to the events of ME2. For example, ME2 set up many storylines that need to be resolved that will likely impact the war effort (dark energy? Quarian/Geth situation? Collector Base? Liara as the Shadow Broker? Wreav vs. Wrex leadership on Tuchanka?)

Right, I know. I meant that by "subplots".

Trust me, I loved ME2. I'm not hating it. But the main, overarching plot seems to have nothing to do with the overarching plot of the ME series. It's a side-step, an excuse to make a second game. Not saying that nothing is needed-- there's tons of stuff we learn in ME2 regarding the galaxy, possible Reaper plans, conflicts that will need to be settled in ME3 to get more forces, etc.-- but the Collector plot was like a side story. It was a reason for us to use Shepard, but not actually fight Reapers yet. At the end of ME2, we're still left with the exact same threat we had at the end of ME1. That's my point.

[111987]

staindgrey wrote...

111987 wrote...

@staindgray

Don't be too quick to dismiss the rest of ME2. At least until we see ME3. The foundation for the Reapers defeat may be tied in to the events of ME2. For example, ME2 set up many storylines that need to be resolved that will likely impact the war effort (dark energy? Quarian/Geth situation? Collector Base? Liara as the Shadow Broker? Wreav vs. Wrex leadership on Tuchanka?)

Right, I know. I meant that by "subplots".

Trust me, I loved ME2. I'm not hating it. But the main, overarching plot seems to have nothing to do with the overarching plot of the ME series. It's a side-step, an excuse to make a second game. Not saying that nothing is needed-- there's tons of stuff we learn in ME2 regarding the galaxy, possible Reaper plans, conflicts that will need to be settled in ME3 to get more forces, etc.-- but the Collector plot was like a side story. It was a reason for us to use Shepard, but not actually fight Reapers yet. At the end of ME2, we're still left with the exact same threat we had at the end of ME1. That's my point.

Gotcha. I completely agree.

[Balek-Vriege]

staindgrey wrote...

While I wouldn't call the ME timeline and story thus far a "complete mess", I will say that ME2's lack of true direction is the cause of most plotholes.

In ME1, we were given a very clear threat: the Reapers. We knew there was going to be a sequel, and we knew it was going to be about stopping the Reapers when they inevitably attack our beloved galaxy. It was simply a question of how, when, and eventually, if we were lucky, why.

Enter ME2: What was its purpose? The Reapers still aren't here. But the Collectors are. Who are the Collectors? They're bad people abducting tons of humans. Why? Because... er... Reapers!

So we save what humans we can, destroy the Human Reaper before it's even close to complete, and kill the Collectors. Awesome.

But where does that leave us?

...Right where ME1 left us. The Reapers are coming, and until Arrival, we still don't know when or how. We just know they're coming and we'll have to fight them in the sequel.

So when looking at it that way, what was the POINT in the Collectors attracting the attention of the galaxy by abducting hundreds of thousands of humans? Couldn't they just wait a bit? Couldn't the Reapers have come (Arrival) during Shepard's hunt for the Collectors, thus distracting whatever human threat while they took the back door straight to Earth?

ME2 offered a lot of character interaction, a huge elaboration on Cerberus and what happened to the Protheans, and succeeded in at least advancing the timeline. Other than that... It pretty much didn't change anything. If ME2 didn't exist, and ME3 was ME2, what would change?

There wouldn't have been Collectors, Shepard wouldn't have "died", we'd have less companions to be pals with, and Shepard wouldn't be as intimate with Cerberus. Other than that, nothing. We wouldn't be missing anything; we'd be at the point in which the Reapers come, and we fight them.

Yes, there are lots of smaller scale subplots at play, such as Omega's status as the pinnacle of the Terminus, the Batarians on the verge of war with Earth, the ever growing problems on Tuchanka and Illium, etc. But in the grand plot? ME2 advanced virtually nothing. Hence all the gaps in the story-- they aren't necessarily "plot holes", but rather, gaps that aren't really filled, and we aren't sure why they even exist. Do we need to know why the Reapers wanted a human version of themselves? Do we need to know why the Collectors even existed? Is Shepard's "death" going to influence anything whatsoever?

We'll find answers, I'm sure. But none of them are essential. The overall threat remains unchanged whether or not we have that knowledge. "We fight or we die, that's the plan." As ridiculous as that quote is, it actually sums up the gaps in ME2 pretty well. We're left with, "Who the **** cares? They're REAPERS! Kill them or we die!"

[/rant]

My personal answer to that question is this:

By the end of Mass Effect 2 and especially Arrival, it seems the purpose of the Collectors kidnapping Humans was to complete a Human Reaper before arriving in full force (or nearly complete because the Collectors would probably need a fleet protecting them to kidnap Earthlings).  Why?  Because then the Reapers could very well invade focused solely on extermination rather than worrying about having enough Humans left to Reaperfy.  The reason why Collectors exist is easy.  Pre-fabricated pawns used to study and research the technology and biology of Galactic races.

Your right about being right where we were at the end of ME1 though, but with a lot more knowledge of the Reapers and their (changing) plans.

[Bcuz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I would say that planet scanning and hunting for resources nodes in the Mako could at times be equally tedious. There are upsides and downsides to each system.

With the Mako you could stumble across goodies and little text stories. Stuff that added fluff and atmosphere to the galaxy. With the scanning in ME2 it is done faster and though you find no ruins or mysteries, you can get back to the main game more quickly.

I miss the beautiful vistas.

The more I see your posts the more I seem to agree with you... are you indoctrinating me?

[Nashiktal]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

While I wouldn't call the ME timeline and story thus far a "complete mess", I will say that ME2's lack of true direction is the cause of most plotholes.

In ME1, we were given a very clear threat: the Reapers. We knew there was going to be a sequel, and we knew it was going to be about stopping the Reapers when they inevitably attack our beloved galaxy. It was simply a question of how, when, and eventually, if we were lucky, why.

Enter ME2: What was its purpose? The Reapers still aren't here. But the Collectors are. Who are the Collectors? They're bad people abducting tons of humans. Why? Because... er... Reapers!

So we save what humans we can, destroy the Human Reaper before it's even close to complete, and kill the Collectors. Awesome.

But where does that leave us?

...Right where ME1 left us. The Reapers are coming, and until Arrival, we still don't know when or how. We just know they're coming and we'll have to fight them in the sequel.

So when looking at it that way, what was the POINT in the Collectors attracting the attention of the galaxy by abducting hundreds of thousands of humans? Couldn't they just wait a bit? Couldn't the Reapers have come (Arrival) during Shepard's hunt for the Collectors, thus distracting whatever human threat while they took the back door straight to Earth?

ME2 offered a lot of character interaction, a huge elaboration on Cerberus and what happened to the Protheans, and succeeded in at least advancing the timeline. Other than that... It pretty much didn't change anything. If ME2 didn't exist, and ME3 was ME2, what would change?

There wouldn't have been Collectors, Shepard wouldn't have "died", we'd have less companions to be pals with, and Shepard wouldn't be as intimate with Cerberus. Other than that, nothing. We wouldn't be missing anything; we'd be at the point in which the Reapers come, and we fight them.

Yes, there are lots of smaller scale subplots at play, such as Omega's status as the pinnacle of the Terminus, the Batarians on the verge of war with Earth, the ever growing problems on Tuchanka and Illium, etc. But in the grand plot? ME2 advanced virtually nothing. Hence all the gaps in the story-- they aren't necessarily "plot holes", but rather, gaps that aren't really filled, and we aren't sure why they even exist. Do we need to know why the Reapers wanted a human version of themselves? Do we need to know why the Collectors even existed? Is Shepard's "death" going to influence anything whatsoever?

We'll find answers, I'm sure. But none of them are essential. The overall threat remains unchanged whether or not we have that knowledge. "We fight or we die, that's the plan." As ridiculous as that quote is, it actually sums up the gaps in ME2 pretty well. We're left with, "Who the **** cares? They're REAPERS! Kill them or we die!"

[/rant]

My personal answer to that question is this:

By the end of Mass Effect 2 and especially Arrival, it seems the purpose of the Collectors kidnapping Humans was to complete a Human Reaper before arriving in full force (or nearly complete because the Collectors would probably need a fleet protecting them to kidnap Earthlings).  Why?  Because then the Reapers could very well invade focused solely on extermination rather than worrying about having enough Humans left to Reaperfy.  The reason why Collectors exist is easy.  Pre-fabricated pawns used to study and research the technology and biology of Galactic races.

Your right about being right where we were at the end of ME1 though, but with a lot more knowledge of the Reapers and their (changing) plans.

That seems flawed to me. The collectors could be collecting while being covered by the reapers. They probably would have got a lot more humans to work with as well. One reaper can stand up to a whole fleet by themselves, the collector cruiser gets destroyed by a single human frigate. (which may or may not be upgraded.)