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[TheButterflyEffect]

Just a random question I want to ask.. because on the tvtrope page there's some kid who is NOT a moderator but is strangely obsessed with "no repeats!!!" and removes other people's edits on the discussion page constantly (even though I've been told before that doing so is poor wiki etiquette). Therefore I can't have any discussion about this (or anything else) with anyone on there.

Anyway, two things. Firstly, I got it from the beginning that she was rather a haughty snob (thus her ingratitude for the PC ruining his life to save her), but why does she reject him on the grounds that "Wardens can't have wives or families"? Given what we encounter later, that's completely false. There's nothing in the Grey Wardens' code that says any such thing; they can't deny any Warden the right to marry or have children, they are free to do whatever they want with their own lives, aside from taking up their swords when they are needed. Just like any military, they only need to be away from home to go off and fight when there is a current darkspawn threat. Plus Ser Jory has a wife, and a child, and at one point Alistair mentions there are many Wardens who have "families" (children). Second, why is it that she used the dowry money (the PC's father's money) in order to disappear back to Highever? Last I remember, in the event that a wedding is cancelled for whatever reason, the entire dowry is to be returned to the family who paid it. If the marriage doesn't take place, the dowry is NOT theirs to keep, it belongs to the other family. Not sure what happened there, that's not right at all. There'd be a lawsuit war if someone did that in the real world.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 02 novembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[thats1evildude]

1) I don't know where you get that Nesiara is a "haughty snob". She's extremely grateful to the City Elf player for rescuing her from Vaughan. The only reason she might be a little stand-offish is if you insulted her.

2) She does not "reject" the Warden. The PC has been conscripted by Duncan and is being hauled off to Ostagar. He's only given you enough time to say a few final goodbyes.

3) The Grey Warden code does not prohibit marriage but members of the Order are generally expected to spend the rest of their (shortened) lifespan fighting the darkspawn down in the Deep Roads and watching for signs of another Blight. You don't ever stop being a Warden; even if you ran away and hid like Anders, eventually the taint will catch up to you. Yes, Jory had a wife, but he was married before he was recruited. That was the case for all of the other Wardens that Alistair mentions — they were married before they were recruited.

4) There is no real reason for Nesiara to remain at the Denerim Alienage once the Warden leaves and ESPECIALLY when he is believed to be dead after the disaster at Ostagar. After Arl Howe leads a purge of the Alienage, it becomes an even worse place to live, as many of the Denerim elves were killed. Under those circumstances, is it really so unreasonable for her to want to return to her family in Highever?

5) The wedding didn't go ahead because of Vaughan's interference and the Warden's recruitment into the Grey Wardens. Otherwise, Nesiara's family fulfilled their end of the contract. I don't think they would be in legal trouble even in modern times.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 novembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

1) I don't know where you get that Nesiara is a "haughty snob". She's extremely grateful to the City Elf player for rescuing her from Vaughan. The only reason she might be a little stand-offish is if you insulted her.

Nah, compared to Nelaros, she was pretty witchy... (and ugly, too, without mods.)

2) She does not "reject" the Warden. The PC has been conscripted by Duncan and is being hauled off to Ostagar. He's only given you enough time to say a few final goodbyes.

But act affectionate towards the snotty little wench and she says, as I quoted, "Wardens can't have wives or families" as her reasoning for dumping you. That's clearly a lie.

3) The Grey Warden code does not prohibit marriage but members of the Order are generally expected to spend the rest of their (shortened) lifespan fighting the darkspawn down in the Deep Roads and watching for signs of another Blight. You don't ever stop being a Warden; even if you ran away and hid like Anders, eventually the taint will catch up to you. Yes, Jory had a wife, but he was married before he was recruited. That was the case for all of the other Wardens that Alistair mentions — they were married before they were recruited.

No, you never stop being a Warden, I didn't say otherwise, but that doesn't mean you can't still have your own private life. You're tainted forever, but that doesn't mean they can force you to actually stay with them forever - you can say "to hail with this!" and leave any old time you want. Anders did, and so did pretty much everyone that the PC recruited in Awakening (go figure, they were all losers to begin with). Wardens have a lot casual sex anywhere and anytime they please, so naturally they can also get married, and have kids if that, by chance, does happen. No one can force them to do otherwise, they're all adults.

4) There is no real reason for Nesiara to remain at the Denerim Alienage once the Warden leaves and ESPECIALLY when he is believed to be dead after the disaster at Ostagar. After Arl Howe leads a purge of the Alienage, it becomes an even worse place to live, as many of the Denerim elves were killed. Under those circumstances, is it really so unreasonable for her to want to return to her family in Highever?

Where was it said that the Warden was believed to be dead? Maybe for a short while after Ostagar's epic fail, but he travels around and talks to people so word of his survival gets out pretty fast. And in addition, we never hear anything from her again, and we never even see Highever in the game. They wasted yet another perfectly good plot.

5) The wedding didn't go ahead because of Vaughan's interference and the Warden's recruitment into the Grey Wardens. Otherwise, Nesiara's family fulfilled their end of the contract. I don't think they would be in legal trouble even in modern times.

Er, no, they didn't. They hauled her back to the mysterious, never seen Highever forever, presumably to get married to some other dude. The wedding DID NOT happen - the reason for it not happening is irrelevant. No marriage, they don't get to keep the money. The union didn't happen, so therefore the dowry still belonged to the PC's family and should have returned to Cyrion. That's absolutely wrong.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@TheButterflyEffect
I believe when you return to the Alienage, Shianni tell's the PC that a funeral was held for them after they learned of Ostagar. The elfs have been locked away from the rest of the population so it would make sense that they don't know that the PC didn't actually die.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 03 novembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I believe when you return to the Alienage, Shianni tell's the PC that a funeral was held for them after they learned of Ostagar.

But like I said, that's the *immediate* aftermath - everyone finds out pretty quickly that you're still alive.

Strangely, I wonder why Wardens are such an endangered species in pseudo-Scotland. It seems like the PC is the *only* one who's stuck around for more than one damn game. Everyone else in an idiot who runs off on their own terms. (which, like I said, is another reason why "Wardens can't have wives or families" is crap - even though the demon genophage is forever, no one can force them to stay against their will.)

[thats1evildude]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

But act affectionate towards the snotty little wench and she says, as I quoted, "Wardens can't have wives or families" as her reasoning for dumping you. That's clearly a lie.

Again, she isn't dumping you. You are being hauled off to fight in a war. She never says "I'm dumping you because Wardens can't marry". She's saying "I know you can't come back for me".

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Anders did, and so did pretty much everyone that the PC recruited in Awakening (go figure, they were all losers to begin with).

Anders ran away and hid. Sure, he left the Order, but he's basically a fugutiive on the run. And like all Wardens, sooner or later he will be forced to undertake The Calling and head into the Deep Roads.

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Where was it said that the Warden was believed to be dead?

Did you actually play through the game as a CE Warden?

ShimmeringDjinn is correct. Shianni herself tells you that they held a funeral for the Warden. No one in the Alienage knew he was still alive, not until he actually comes back to the Alienage. Word of the Warden's exploits never got back to them because the Alienage was completely closed off.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 novembre 2011 - 06:09 .

[Klidi]

Anyway, two things. Firstly, I got it from the beginning that she was rather a haughty snob (thus her ingratitude for the PC ruining his life to save her),

That is just your impression. Not a fact. She never was behaved like a haughty snob to my CE and she was very grateful.

but why does she reject him on the grounds that "Wardens can't have wives or families"? Given what we encounter later, that's completely false. There's nothing in the Grey Wardens' code that says any such thing; they can't deny any Warden the right to marry or have children, they are free to do whatever they want with their own lives, aside from taking up their swords when they are needed. Just like any military, they only need to be away from home to go off and fight when there is a current darkspawn threat. Plus Ser Jory has a wife, and a child, and at one point Alistair mentions there are many Wardens who have "families" (children).

First, she didn't dump him. He had to leave and as they were not married and practically didn't know each other, it wouldn't have any sense to drag her to Ostagar. Especially as the CE was just  a recruit, and Duncan knew it was not certain if he would survive the Joining. Plus they were preparing for great battle.
Second, what you said doesn't mean it was widely known. Wardens were rather secretive order and perhaps the people believed they are all great warriors so devoted to their task that they don't have families.

Second, why is it that she used the dowry money (the PC's father's money) in order to disappear back to Highever? Last I remember, in the event that a wedding is cancelled for whatever reason, the entire dowry is to be returned to the family who paid it. If the marriage doesn't take place, the dowry is NOT theirs to keep, it belongs to the other family. Not sure what happened there, that's not right at all. There'd be a lawsuit war if someone did that in the real world.

What's not right is to blame someone when you're not sure what happened there. Has it ever occur to you that Cyrion perhaps allowed her to use that money? Innocent until proven guilty.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Firstly, I got it from the beginning that she was rather a haughty snob (thus her ingratitude for the PC ruining his life to save her),

Only if you insulted her.

but why does she reject him on the grounds that "Wardens can't have wives or families"? Given what we encounter later, that's completely false.

What Nesiara or any other alienage elf knows about the Grey Wardens isn't likely to be 100% correct. While Nesiara's claim about Wardens and families is incorrect, she might think it's true. There's a lot of rumour and hearsay surrounding the organisation...or so I've heard.

If it's any consolation, I think Soris' wife Valora leaves Denerim if Soris goes to jail, and he helped with the rescue. Her basis for leaving is...well, the groom is gone, she doesn't know if he's even alive, so why not return to her family? Nesiara could feel similarly about a Grey Warden gone off to war.

Second, why is it that she used the dowry money (the PC's father's money) in order to disappear back to Highever? Last I remember, in the event that a wedding is cancelled for whatever reason, the entire dowry is to be returned to the family who paid it. If the marriage doesn't take place, the dowry is NOT theirs to keep, it belongs to the other family. Not sure what happened there, that's not right at all. There'd be a lawsuit war if someone did that in the real world.

It's not the real world. And maybe the PC's father was so distraught at losing his only child he didn't want to argue the dowry. By elven and alienage standards, Cyrion was apparently quite wealthy.

[Ferretinabun]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Second, why is it that she used the dowry money (the PC's father's money) in order to disappear back to Highever? Last I remember, in the event that a wedding is cancelled for whatever reason, the entire dowry is to be returned to the family who paid it. If the marriage doesn't take place, the dowry is NOT theirs to keep, it belongs to the other family. Not sure what happened there, that's not right at all. There'd be a lawsuit war if someone did that in the real world.

Okay, I've never played through the City Elf origin as a male, only as female, but does a dowry work differently in the DA universe? A dowry is a payment the bride's father/family offers the groom, not the other way around. Effectively it's a way of ensuring girls from the wealthiest families are the best catch, since they come with the biggest dowry (bribe...?). So no wedding = the bride's family gets to keep the dowry. Or am I missing something?

[theskymoves]

It has been a while since my last CE PT, but my recollection is that it is inferred, if not explicitly stated, that in the arranged marriage, the party who leaves their home Alienage for the union is compensated via the dowry for that "sacrifice"/inconvenience. (IIRC, the relevant dialogue is in the intitial convo between Tabris/Cyrion, if you ask him about the dowry.) And clearly dowries are not sex-dependent in Ferelden CE culture, since one is paid whether the the CE is male or female.

[TheButterflyEffect]

So, just because everyone thinks you're dead, then it's perfectly okay to stomp and ****** all over you and your "memory" and everything that you had. Okay then. I see how it is. (Jerks.)

[thats1evildude]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

So, just because everyone thinks you're dead, then it's perfectly okay to stomp and ****** all over you and your "memory" and everything that you had. Okay then. I see how it is. (Jerks.)

What the hell are you talking about?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 novembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

theskymoves wrote...

It has been a while since my last CE PT, but my recollection is that it is inferred, if not explicitly stated, that in the arranged marriage, the party who leaves their home Alienage for the union is compensated via the dowry for that "sacrifice"/inconvenience. (IIRC, the relevant dialogue is in the intitial convo between Tabris/Cyrion, if you ask him about the dowry.) And clearly dowries are not sex-dependent in Ferelden CE culture, since one is paid whether the the CE is male or female.

That's what I remember too. The dowry is paid to the family who loses their child, male or female. In DA it seems most alienage marriages consist of getting in new blood from different cities. The CE's spouse-to-be is from Highever, and I assume Soris' is too. Plus the richer the family, the better the marriage prospects. Nesiara is described as a 'dream come true', and Nelaros is a blacksmith, which is a pretty valuable trade.

@thats1evildude - I think Butterfly is just upset his fantasy elven bride 'dumped' him, and doesn't like the reasons why.

[Corker]

The angry lady... Elva? Doesn't she mention that the CE is lucky because all her family could "afford" for her was a drunk, lazy guy? There might be a specific mention there.

Nelaros is a canonically a blacksmith? I totally missed that...

[thats1evildude]

Yes, it's mentioned several times that the CE Warden got a pretty, capable bride because Cyrion paid a hefty dowry. (Thanks, Dad.)

In this case, dowries don't work exactly as they do in our world, but the system of arranged marriages that the alienages practice is also somewhat unusual.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 novembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Verly]

seriously, she knew your character for like, 5, minutes..max. As others said the fiance is usually quite happy, I say usually, because if your elf insults her in anyway..then yeah, she don't like to think of getting arranged in a marriage with a jerk. what memory was she supposed to uphold, the memory of your elf telling her he didn't want to get married to her? after the funeral she would have had no reason to stay.

but yes, no one in the alianage knew your elf was alive until he walked into it almost a year later in game time. (we know this because it took a year for the blight to be ended and you cannot get into the aleanage until right before the landsmeet. If you try to get in before that a city guard stops you and tells you the alenage is closed.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Corker: Yep, blacksmith, or that's what I remember. I think it's either Cyrion or Soris who mentions it (probably the latter). Plus if you look at the description of the wedding ring:

A simple band of gold made from scraps of gilding by Nelaros at his father's forge in Highever.