21 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Yeah the preachy Chantry idiots say they are neither kin to the spirits or demons that inhabit the fade.

But in Broken Circle, you see the same vile, mushroomy corruption that the darkspawn create. Even Morrigan notices and comments on it if you have her in your party.

And a comment David Gaider made after a question about why the Templars don't care about magic wielding darkspawn implies they are the same as abominations.

http://i299.photobuc...dGaiderPost.png

I took this shot in case this ever came up.

It is true that darkspawn are born from Ghouls while abominations are created by the union of a person and a demon. But perhaps if two abominations reproduced, the offspring wouldn't be any different than a darkspawn.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Avernus says the darkspawn taint is alien to demons.

[TEWR]

Two Abominations.... having sex....

There's a mental image I didn't need before heading off to bed after eating.

[TJPags]

I see nothing in there that implies they are the same as abominations . . . . .

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Avernus says the darkspawn taint is alien to demons.

Avernus also said that the Tevinters being responsible for the darkspawn was a lie to supress mages, but Corypheus kinda proved him partly wrong.

Also a demon and an abomination aren't the same. An abomination is an unnatutal and twisted creation that comes to be when a demon or a spirit unites with a human/elve/etc.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

I see nothing in there that implies they are the same as abominations . . . . .

It's in the wording.

Gaider says that Templars don't concern themselves with Darkspawn mages because they are already darkspawn. And as we all know, Templars fear mages becoming abominations. And the chant of light does say that mages became the darkspawn. 

So it's an implication that they are similar. How else could abominations in the Circle tower create the same mushy corruption that the darkspawn do?

Edit: Shoot, double post. I was hoping someone else had posted by now. lol sry

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:47 .

[whykikyouwhy]

"Abomination" is a broad term for the merging of a demon and a mortal (usually, but not always, a mage, if memory serves). So calling the darkspawn abominations might depend on what or where you think the Taint is derived. If you believe if came about from the crash party into Rotten Twinkie City, then the Taint could be many things - an incredibly powerful entity/spirit/demon that corrupted the magisters and started the darkspawn domino effect, a parasite or disease in and of itself, or some sort of magical toxic waste - not sentient, but simply vile. If it's the latter you subscribe to, then the darkspawn aren't so much abominations in the standard definition, but some distortion caused by poisoning/fallout/etc. They're a mutation.

[Herr Uhl]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

But perhaps if two abominations reproduced, the offspring wouldn't be any different than a darkspawn.

Perhaps if a cat and an eagle reproduced, the offspring wouldn't be any different from a griffin.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It seems pretty clear that abominations and darkspawn are two totally different kinds of creatures. The darkspawn are largely defined by virulent corruption they spread. Abominations are not. Abominations can't infect people with the darkspawn taint. The darkspawn taint is almost certainly connected somehow to the Black City and the demons of the fade avoid that place it is said. Just because some of the messes they made is similar doesn't mean they are the same. The creatures both come to exist in totally different ways and have different attributes. Darkspawn all hear the call of the Old Gods, and are otherwise mindless. Abominations can be as intelligent as the demons that create them.

David Gaiders comments mean that the templars task is not to kill anything magic related. It's to deal with those in society that have magic. A darkspawn mage is killed because he's a darkspawn not and not because he's a mage.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:53 .

[WhiteKnyght]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

"Abomination" is a broad term for the merging of a demon and a mortal (usually, but not always, a mage, if memory serves). So calling the darkspawn abominations might depend on what or where you think the Taint is derived. If you believe if came about from the crash party into Rotten Twinkie City, then the Taint could be many things - an incredibly powerful entity/spirit/demon that corrupted the magisters and started the darkspawn domino effect, a parasite or disease in and of itself, or some sort of magical toxic waste - not sentient, but simply vile. If it's the latter you subscribe to, then the darkspawn aren't so much abominations in the standard definition, but some distortion caused by poisoning/fallout/etc. They're a mutation.

The taint itself could be a form of demon.

Darkspawn and ghouls are controlled by the Archdemons/Old gods. Flemeth even states that it is the "core" of the taint. And it was the old gods who convinced the Magisters to bust into a place that was black and corrupted. So that may have been the plan all along.

The old gods could just be very powerful and ancient demons who are possessing and controlling multiple vessels at once via the taint.

[Herr Uhl]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Gaider says that Templars don't concern themselves with Darkspawn mages because they are already darkspawn. And as we all know, Templars fear mages becoming abominations. And the chant of light does say that mages became the darkspawn. 

Templars do however hunt and kill abominations.

[General User]

Visual similarities like that one of the (current) weaknesses of the video game medium.

Does the similar... decoration in the Ferelden Circle Tower during Uldred's Revolt and the Darkspawn infested Deep Roads mean anything? Or is it just reusing resources?

Does the striking physical similarity between The Architect and Corypheus mean anything? Or is it just reusing resources?

[TJPags]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I see nothing in there that implies they are the same as abominations . . . . .

It's in the wording.

Gaider says that Templars don't concern themselves with Darkspawn mages because they are already darkspawn. And as we all know, Templars fear mages becoming abominations. And the chant of light does say that mages became the darkspawn. 

So it's an implication that they are similar. How else could abominations in the Circle tower create the same mushy corruption that the darkspawn do?

Edit: Shoot, double post. I was hoping someone else had posted by now. lol sry

I'm sorry, I don't see it.

Templars concern themselves with watching mages for signs of corruption - becoming an abomination being one of those corruptions.  They don't concern themselves with Darkspawn.  That's the Grey Wardens job.

So the Templars don't concern themselves with Darkspawn mages because they are Darkspawn, not humans or elves.  They don't fal under Templars, they fall under Grey Wardens.

That's what I see DG saying there.

As for the mushroom thingies  . . . ehhh, I have no idea.  We do know Darkspawn have some connection to the Fade, don't we?  The singing of the Old Gods, which Grey Wardens seem to hear in dreams . . perhaps Darkspawn do too? 

There could be some kind of connection in that respect, but Darkspawn mages as abominations?  I don't think DG said that, or implied it, at all.

[WhiteKnyght]

TJPags wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I see nothing in there that implies they are the same as abominations . . . . .

It's in the wording.

Gaider says that Templars don't concern themselves with Darkspawn mages because they are already darkspawn. And as we all know, Templars fear mages becoming abominations. And the chant of light does say that mages became the darkspawn. 

So it's an implication that they are similar. How else could abominations in the Circle tower create the same mushy corruption that the darkspawn do?

Edit: Shoot, double post. I was hoping someone else had posted by now. lol sry

I'm sorry, I don't see it.

Templars concern themselves with watching mages for signs of corruption - becoming an abomination being one of those corruptions.  They don't concern themselves with Darkspawn.  That's the Grey Wardens job.

So the Templars don't concern themselves with Darkspawn mages because they are Darkspawn, not humans or elves.  They don't fal under Templars, they fall under Grey Wardens.

That's what I see DG saying there.

As for the mushroom thingies  . . . ehhh, I have no idea.  We do know Darkspawn have some connection to the Fade, don't we?  The singing of the Old Gods, which Grey Wardens seem to hear in dreams . . perhaps Darkspawn do too? 

There could be some kind of connection in that respect, but Darkspawn mages as abominations?  I don't think DG said that, or implied it, at all.

Well codex entries in DAII imply that demons such as Xebenkeck incited humans to worship the old gods in the first place. So there is likely a relation, if a distant one.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How do they imply that?

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

How do they imply that?

"The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of
answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones—
Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound,
and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the
fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."

The well known fact was that blood magic first came from the old gods. So it's implied that the demons and the old gods are connected and that they may have nudged humanity towards them.

Considering that the writers decided to call the tained old gods archdemons. Its a pretty good implication of a form of hierarchy within their kind. If you know what I'm getting at.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the implication of that Codex is that The Forbidden Ones were who really taught mortals blood magic since the Old Gods weren't mentioned in that paragraph at all. It's a another account of history.

[Bayz]

We don't really know who taught Blood Magic to Tevinter really.

One codex says it was the Old Gods, and there was another source that said it was the elves...A third group now? great...

Modifié par Bayz, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[jamesp81]

The taint is alien to the Fade and has great power over demons, according to Avernus. And that crazy old bat would know.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars don't concern themselves with Emissarries because, as Darkspawn, they would want to destroy them immediately anyway.

[Gervaise]

Thought a couple of quotes taken from the Calling might help.  The first is definitely taken from the Chant of Light:

"And so we burned. We raised nations, we waged wars,
We dreamed up false gods, great demons
Who could cross the Veil into the waking world,
Turned our devotion upon them, and forgot you."

This would suggest that the old gods were definitely powerful demons, which would tie in with the Archdemon of the Darkspawn.  The second is apparently from dissonent verses, in order words versus that for some reason the Chantry decided to exclude from the Chant as not being genuine.

"The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night."

Since the spirits and demons were the first children of the Maker, this would again tie in with the old gods being dragons in appearance but also demons.   Why the Chantry did not approve of these verses I have no idea.  I took these quotes from the Wiki but they were referenced to the Calling.   The last line may be the significant one if the "lost to night" refers to something other than being imprisoned underground.   Anyway I though it might be of help to the debate.

[Bayz]

Gervaise wrote...

Thought a couple of quotes taken from the Calling might help.  The first is definitely taken from the Chant of Light:

"And so we burned. We raised nations, we waged wars,
We dreamed up false gods, great demons
Who could cross the Veil into the waking world,
Turned our devotion upon them, and forgot you."

This would suggest that the old gods were definitely powerful demons, which would tie in with the Archdemon of the Darkspawn.  The second is apparently from dissonent verses, in order words versus that for some reason the Chantry decided to exclude from the Chant as not being genuine.

"The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night."

Since the spirits and demons were the first children of the Maker, this would again tie in with the old gods being dragons in appearance but also demons.   Why the Chantry did not approve of these verses I have no idea.  I took these quotes from the Wiki but they were referenced to the Calling.   The last line may be the significant one if the "lost to night" refers to something other than being imprisoned underground.   Anyway I though it might be of help to the debate.

Interesting...there was a theory somewhere saying that the Old Gods were
actually Dragon Abominations...