134 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

About the stage on which the game plays: Yes, Skyrim has that. So does DE:HR. In DA2 you can have a situation in which an NPC tells that a mage is locked up, but you will never see that happening. Both disappear in thin air as soon as that cinematic is over. In Skyrim that NPC calls a guard and that guard escorts the mage to the dungeons. If you want you can follow the whole process or go about your business and take it for granted. In a first run I didn't follow them. I thought I had lost that mage, which was a shame, because he also was a destruction skill trainer. In a second run I decided to follow them. That way I figured out where they locked him up and I was still able to get training

About the [strength] and [intimidate] approach in dialogue: At first glance one can think strength is a physical attribute that may impact intimidation, but that only makes sense if the PC is a warrior. A weak mage with an awesome fire storm spell can be much more intimidating. So, I would be OK with this if the game used spell power for the mage instead. However, that cannot always be applied. Convincing others doesn't always have to do with combat skills. So, I rather have that separated in cases where combat skills are inappropriate to determine the result.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 décembre 2011 - 01:01 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Well, the idea is to not break things up into combat/non-combat stuff, just "character" stuff. Strength isn't good only for combat. Allows you to carry more things, for example.

But on the whole, you've got a good point. Perhaps tying it to the class would be the best idea. You could create a set of animations -- or even just use the "prepare for combat" stances, allowing you to intimidate differently depending on class. I think for the equivalent of charm or diplomacy options, you mix it up, making them more contextual. I've suggested new skill/talent trees such as Commerce and Leadership and those ones along with certain Attributes (Cunning) would be okay. Trying to convince a merchant to give a discount (peacefully), that's Commerce. Want to convince a local Lord to take your side in a conflict? Show good Leadership skills.

Or we can just do what's always been done. It doesn't exactly lead to bad games or anything. I just find it creates a big line saying "this is for this only and that is for that only". Which is annoying for me.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 05 décembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

To make the stage thing more clear: There was no dialogue option to follow the mage. I could follow that mage if I wanted and see where they went, though. Following him made a difference. So even if this was a linear event then my decision to follow him had a consequence. All the devs had to do was to make it possible and there would be no true branching required. It's a good example of the illusion of choice.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To make the stage thing more clear: There was no dialogue option to follow the mage. I could follow that mage if I wanted and see where they went, though. Following him made a difference. So even if this was a linear event then my decision to follow them had a consequence. All the devs had to do was to make it possible and there would be no true branching required. It's a good example of the illusion of choice.

I agree with you on that now that I've read it again. Thanks for clarifying. I was thinking you meant literal camera angles in the beginning. I actually provided my own example unintentionally before:

Just a random YT example:

...

Imagine if instead, the Elves were chasing the man across the map (actually running) and you got to hear their dialog back and forth as you ran after them. Eventually exhausted and surrounded the man begs for help. The game waits a few seconds for you to decide. If you approach them, that counts as deciding to help him, so the Elves become hostile. If you decide to stay back, that counts as deciding to let him die, so they execute him.

Perhaps not exactly the same, but similar.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:45 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Yes. However, in my sample the mage will be imprisoned. No matter what. And the guard will be called to escort the mage. No matter what. Assume that a dragon attacks the scene by accident then it will only delay the events. Also, the play continues on the stage, no matter whether you are watching it or not. If you leave the area, the game keeps track of what is happening when and where. So, if you re-enter another area through which the mage has to go in order to get to the dungeon then you can see him being escorted if you are there in time. Or you can find out where the dungeons are and visit the mage later while he is locked up. It's no special event, no scripting involved, because the mage is there anyway and you can just go there. If you enter a local pub and missed all of the above then you might hear an NPC talking about it as a rumor. If you investigate that rumor then the imprisonment will turn out to be true.

What this does it that the story is being told on the fly - complete with voice acting - and it gives you the illusion that you are part of it. No cinematics required.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Deleted.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Firky]

@mrcrusty - pertaining to a page back and responses to me. (I don't want to do a gigantic quote)

1. Whoops. Voiced. Not paying attention, sorry. Is writing a word for an emotion or way of presenting yourself much different to what DAII's wheel had though? (Not being confrontational, just thinking it through a little more.)

2. I think the consequence for failing a steal check in KOA was being attacked by guards - and I think (oh man, must take better notes) that stealing skill was seperate to class-based skills. I'm guessing it might also ruin a few things in the surrounding area/faction/quests etc, if you fail. That's a guess. It may not. (Like in certain Ultimas where, if you accidentally attacked someone, you had to raze the entire town.)

It must be a hard balance to strike, though. I remember killing guards in Witcher 2 and they'd just be replaced by other guards. (Unless I missed something.) It's a nice touch, but it's really just a touch. In Skyrim I accidentally killed a major quest giver, and some guards, then got worried and loaded, so I don't know the consequence of that. Would you be able to finish the game? (Maybe it was a minor quest giver.)

I don't think that simply failing to get whatever is in the chest is necessarily inconsistent with the "story-driven" RPG. I think it is inconsistent with other forms of RPG, sure, like open world/reactive etc. I wonder if there is some other way, like using skills to get stuff that progresses (or locks out) story options. Gamplay feeding into choice and consequence narrative?

I dunno. But interesting discussion.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Modifié par CrustyBot, 14 novembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Firky]

You've obviously put a lot of work into this, and I went back and looked at the first page of posts, too.

I don't disagree with anything. It's very complex. And I love gamplay over cinematics - like the most evocative moment for me in DAII was seeing my love interest in a red circle and hacking HP off said love interest. (There was no cutscene.)

It's an interesting one. I guess I prefer RPGs that cater to different niches rather than the idea of a super-RPG. (Although some kind of super RPG would certainly be worth a play. I think it'd also be exhausting.)

The fact that Merrill couldn't freak out Templars, didn't detract from the fact that Merrill was a great character (for me - I know lots disagree.) Also, DAII was a nice break from trying to break the game. I didn't feel the need to try to engage with a reactive game world. In Skyrim, I've been studiously slaughtering livestock in search of that illusive gem in the chicken - that's a BG2 related impulse. (Which is cool, and I love Skyrim, but it's a different kind of enjoyment.)

Still, I'm not saying DAII shouldn't have been more reactive, or more anything. My favourite game this year was a $12 indie that provided practically no gameplay at all. I'd love to post what it is, and in two weeks time I will post it in off topic. It's probably a personal preference, but I think there's lots of scope actually within the RPG genre, I guess.

(But really thought provoking ideas, nonetheless.)

[1varangian]

For me DA2 was a massive step backwards. Character creation is the foundation of any RPG and we need that back.

DA2 gameplay was appalling too. A believable RPG needs a believable world. Looking and playing like a cartoon does not help.

I want DA3 to be on par with Skyrim and Witcher 2 in this regard. A believable RPG world instead of cartoon characters bouncing up and down with oversized weapons and unlimited flashy magic. I'm sure there's lots of games for that already.

Modifié par 1varangian, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:28 .