203 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

If nukes could kill reapers as easily as some of you think, they would have been defeated MANY cycles ago. We have to remember just how long the reapers have been doing this. They have probably seen all of our tricks before. Even with our new tech don't expect some simple solution.

[Sgt Stryker]

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I wouldn't worry too much about that. I'm pretty sure throughout the entirety of the Battle of the Citadel, the Alliance ships would have ended up firing a total of several gigatons worth of energy into Sovereign.

WOAH. Not to sound rude, but you clearly don't know how much a gigaton is. The ships fighting Sovereign didn't even come close to unleashing a megaton of force against Sovereign.

Yeah, on second thought, I'll retract that statement until I can get accurate numbers on the main weapon yield of a cruiser-class vessel, how many were in the battle, what their rate of fire was, and how long the battle lasted.

You wouldn't happen to have those numbers on you, would you? That would make this exercise a hell of a lot easier.

Either way, if 22nd century weapons couldn't stop a Reaper, I have my doubts that 20th century weapons would even put a dent in them.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 04 novembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[SandTrout]

Nashiktal wrote...

If nukes could kill reapers as easily as some of you think, they would have been defeated MANY cycles ago. We have to remember just how long the reapers have been doing this. They have probably seen all of our tricks before. Even with our new tech don't expect some simple solution.

This is probably the best arugment that I've seen. Someone somewhere would have certainly attempted a last-ditch nuclear solution, and it apparently didn't work.

[Iron Star]

General User wrote...

Not to mention smaller and easier to deploy. Given the use of portable mass effect fields and the availability of antimatter for military applications, there's no reason 50+ megaton nuclear devices couldn't be small enough to fit in a backpack.

I'm not really sure the ME universe have that kind of technology, think of the M-920 Cain. Sure it's not even a "real" nuke, but it's about the size of a fully grown human's upper body, and even though it doesn't state how much power it releases on impact, it's definately not comparable to a real nuke.

[Andy379]

All we need is a 25 kill streak for every reaper.

[CuseGirl]

Andy379 wrote...

All we need is a 25 kill streak for every reaper.

killtacular!!!

[111987]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I wouldn't worry too much about that. I'm pretty sure throughout the entirety of the Battle of the Citadel, the Alliance ships would have ended up firing a total of several gigatons worth of energy into Sovereign.

WOAH. Not to sound rude, but you clearly don't know how much a gigaton is. The ships fighting Sovereign didn't even come close to unleashing a megaton of force against Sovereign.

Yeah, on second thought, I'll retract that statement until I can get accurate numbers on the main weapon yield of a cruiser-class vessel, how many were in the battle, what their rate of fire was, and how long the battle lasted.

You wouldn't happen to have those numbers on you, would you? That would make this exercise a hell of a lot easier.

Either way, if 22nd century weapons couldn't stop a Reaper, I have my doubts that 20th century weapons would even put a dent in them.

Well a dreadnaught is more than twice the length of a cruiser, and since the main gun's firepower is determined by the length of the ship, a cruiser's firepower is probably a lot less than half a dreadnaught's. Actually, it's probably way less than that because otherwise two cruisers would be equal to a dreadnaught and therefore dreadnaughts would be pointless.

But let's go with say, 8 (about 1/4 of a dreadnaught) kilotons per shot. I counted 16 cruisers firing on Sovereign, feel free to check that yourself though. So assuming the main cannon fires every 5 seconds, that means Sovereign is taking in 256 kilotons every 5 seconds. Assuming the battle lasts 2 minutes (a very generous amount), and taking into account the fact that 8 cruisers were destroyed by Sovereign, that would mean it took in an approximate energy yield of 1.7 megatons. Keep in mind that this is a very generous estimate.

Modern nukes today can get as large as 50 megatons. More than enough to obliterate dozens of Reapers if they were all concentrated within a few miles of course. Even if nuke sizes never increased, 50 megatons is way too much for a Reaper to take.

Nashiktal wrote...

If nukes could kill reapers as easily
as some of you think, they would have been defeated MANY cycles ago. We
have to remember just how long the reapers have been doing this. They
have probably seen all of our tricks before. Even with our new tech
don't expect some simple solution.

How do we know other
species haven't used nukes, and inflicted Reaper casualties, but ended
up losing anyways? After all if you're going to nuke a planet-based
Reaper you're pretty much killing yourself as well. That's why I said I
would only nuke a city that is already beyond saving, to kill a dozen or
so Reapers.

[Nashiktal]

Wait you are relying on reapers being in the city when you nuke it? What if the reapers strike from orbit? Even with directionally charged nukes that really dampens the power to bear against the reapers. You also have to deal with reaper fighters tying up your own, (occuli) so you can't overly rely on fighters to deliver the payload.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

Wait you are relying on reapers being in the city when you nuke it? What if the reapers strike from orbit? Even with directionally charged nukes that really dampens the power to bear against the reapers. You also have to deal with reaper fighters tying up your own, (occuli) so you can't overly rely on fighters to deliver the payload.

Planet-side, nukes would be devastating against the Reapers.

If they remain in orbit and in space, nukes become less useful, but still a viable option. The head from radiation should be intense enough to fry the Reaper's electronics, if not melt the hull entirely. As for Occuli; no plan is perfect. But Reapers are just too large to be entirely protected from fighters. And you only need one fighter to get throughto release its payload.

[Nashiktal]

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Wait you are relying on reapers being in the city when you nuke it? What if the reapers strike from orbit? Even with directionally charged nukes that really dampens the power to bear against the reapers. You also have to deal with reaper fighters tying up your own, (occuli) so you can't overly rely on fighters to deliver the payload.

Planet-side, nukes would be devastating against the Reapers.

If they remain in orbit and in space, nukes become less useful, but still a viable option. The head from radiation should be intense enough to fry the Reaper's electronics, if not melt the hull entirely. As for Occuli; no plan is perfect. But Reapers are just too large to be entirely protected from fighters. And you only need one fighter to get throughto release its payload.

You are also assuming that nukes will be able to fry the electronics. What if they are shielded? Space is chock full of radiation in space and for creatures as old and traveled as reapers you have to assume they have some sort of defense against it.

[111987]

Nashiktal wrote...

111987 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Wait you are relying on reapers being in the city when you nuke it? What if the reapers strike from orbit? Even with directionally charged nukes that really dampens the power to bear against the reapers. You also have to deal with reaper fighters tying up your own, (occuli) so you can't overly rely on fighters to deliver the payload.

Planet-side, nukes would be devastating against the Reapers.

If they remain in orbit and in space, nukes become less useful, but still a viable option. The head from radiation should be intense enough to fry the Reaper's electronics, if not melt the hull entirely. As for Occuli; no plan is perfect. But Reapers are just too large to be entirely protected from fighters. And you only need one fighter to get throughto release its payload.

You are also assuming that nukes will be able to fry the electronics. What if they are shielded? Space is chock full of radiation in space and for creatures as old and traveled as reapers you have to assume they have some sort of defense against it.

In space, the blast of the nuke still generates heat, light, and expels radiation. The heat generated is as hot, if not hotter than the core of a star. I'm pretty sure that's hot enough to melt a Reaper hull at close range.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How do you get the nuke close enough to detonate it?

Fighters. If the fighters and cruisers at the Battle of the Citadel could hit Sovereign with disruptor torpedoes, which are the slowest weapons starships use, they can hit Reapers with nukes.

[Belisarius09]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Regardless, it shouldn't be taken overly literally either. We can tell from ME1 that Sovereign was being worn down by the Alliance fleet bombarding it: otherwise, it wouldn't have needed to possess the Saren corpse in order to hasten the takeover of the Citadel, when Vigil's data file was always a temporary roadblock.

That makes sense, though I'm not sure what difference it really makes. So a fleet (a whole fleet, mind you) can maybe wear down a single reaper's shields, given enough time. So what? It might as well be impervious for all the difference that makes.

keep in mind at the battle of the citadel the ships attacking soveriegn were cruiser class or smaller. there were no dreadnoughts firing at him.  also the alliance fifth fleet was splitting its firepower between two tasks, soveriegn being 1, and the geth fleet itself remained a threat and couldn't be ignored being 2.

[Arijharn]

But nukes need a transfer medium for heat to work.

[SkittlesKat96]

Nashiktal wrote...

If nukes could kill reapers as easily as some of you think, they would have been defeated MANY cycles ago. We have to remember just how long the reapers have been doing this. They have probably seen all of our tricks before. Even with our new tech don't expect some simple solution.

Your probably right but its possible that nukes are a standard/high in supply armament in the Mass Effect universe...maybe with enough of them it could still cause damage to the Reapers. After all from what we've seen most if not all cycle extinctions that have happened have basically happened so the Reapers sneak attack every planet one by one and take over the Citadel and etc.

It seems like the Reapers are a few years late past their due of genocide and so much technological advancement is happening

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Regardless, it shouldn't be taken overly literally either. We can tell from ME1 that Sovereign was being worn down by the Alliance fleet bombarding it: otherwise, it wouldn't have needed to possess the Saren corpse in order to hasten the takeover of the Citadel, when Vigil's data file was always a temporary roadblock.

That makes sense, though I'm not sure what difference it really makes. So a fleet (a whole fleet, mind you) can maybe wear down a single reaper's shields, given enough time. So what? It might as well be impervious for all the difference that makes.

Minor caveat.

It's implied there's been some serious up-gunning in technology between ME1 and ME3. Thannix's are mass-applicable, giving even a fighter the firepower of a Cruiser at range. New shield and new armor technologies. Etc.

ERm.... two points:

1) It's not stated explicitly that fighters get firepower of a cruiser. It said it can be mounted ona fighter, but it's redicolous to believe a fgirage, cruiser and fighter version fo the Thanix will have the same power.
Take a look at Normandy Mk2 - the thanix mounted on it gave it the firepower of a cruiser. (note that a un-upgraded Normandy can still take out the collector cruiser with 4-5 shots from it's regular guns...The Collector Cruiser is NOT IMPRESSIVE.)
You really think a fighter can carry the same gun? That it's core can generate the same amount of power?

2) All ships retrofitted with Thanix cannon? Since when?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 novembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Belisarius09 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Regardless, it shouldn't be taken overly literally either. We can tell from ME1 that Sovereign was being worn down by the Alliance fleet bombarding it: otherwise, it wouldn't have needed to possess the Saren corpse in order to hasten the takeover of the Citadel, when Vigil's data file was always a temporary roadblock.

That makes sense, though I'm not sure what difference it really makes. So a fleet (a whole fleet, mind you) can maybe wear down a single reaper's shields, given enough time. So what? It might as well be impervious for all the difference that makes.

keep in mind at the battle of the citadel the ships attacking soveriegn were cruiser class or smaller. there were no dreadnoughts firing at him.  also the alliance fifth fleet was splitting its firepower between two tasks, soveriegn being 1, and the geth fleet itself remained a threat and couldn't be ignored being 2.

Canonicly, the 5th Fleet had a DN or two in that battle.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 novembre 2011 - 07:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...
Well a dreadnaught is more than twice the length of a cruiser, and since the main gun's firepower is determined by the length of the ship, a cruiser's firepower is probably a lot less than half a dreadnaught's. Actually, it's probably way less than that because otherwise two cruisers would be equal to a dreadnaught and therefore dreadnaughts would be pointless.

But let's go with say, 8 (about 1/4 of a dreadnaught) kilotons per shot. I counted 16 cruisers firing on Sovereign, feel free to check that yourself though. So assuming the main cannon fires every 5 seconds, that means Sovereign is taking in 256 kilotons every 5 seconds. Assuming the battle lasts 2 minutes (a very generous amount), and taking into account the fact that 8 cruisers were destroyed by Sovereign, that would mean it took in an approximate energy yield of 1.7 megatons. Keep in mind that this is a very generous estimate.

Modern nukes today can get as large as 50 megatons. More than enough to obliterate dozens of Reapers if they were all concentrated within a few miles of course. Even if nuke sizes never increased, 50 megatons is way too much for a Reaper to take.

Slight corrections here..You're assuming each ship has only 1 gun. (The Kilimanjaro class is armed with 156 broadside mass accelerator cannons)
IIRC, cruisers seem to have 2 forward guns.. and ther's also other weapons - such  as missiles and lasers.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:00 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Personally, I think Bioware meant 'impervious to anything short of Dreadnought fire,' but the line got fumbled. Maybe even 'impervious to cruiser fire', since the point is that the Normandy itself couldn't win.

Regardless, it shouldn't be taken overly literally either. We can tell from ME1 that Sovereign was being worn down by the Alliance fleet bombarding it: otherwise, it wouldn't have needed to possess the Saren corpse in order to hasten the takeover of the Citadel, when Vigil's data file was always a temporary roadblock.

I disagree.

I feel Sovereign's hubris brought him down.  He was focused on his single goal of activating the citadel through his agents.  He waited unphased by anything thrown at him with no sign of faltering.  When they falled he then took it upon himself to manefest himself in an avatar and that was sovereign's mistake.  His sense of urgency can easily be explained in that he was already delayed in activating the Citadel for whatever reason they do it and it was becoming urgent.

The made the reapers too strong, period. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Diagreee all you want, the devs confirmed Sovereing - even without the avatar - would have been brought down. Of course, with MUCH higher losses.

[General User]

Get fired up wrote...

General User wrote...

Not to mention smaller and easier to deploy. Given the use of portable mass effect fields and the availability of antimatter for military applications, there's no reason 50+ megaton nuclear devices couldn't be small enough to fit in a backpack.

I'm not really sure the ME universe have that kind of technology, think of the M-920 Cain. Sure it's not even a "real" nuke, but it's about the size of a fully grown human's upper body, and even though it doesn't state how much power it releases on impact, it's definately not comparable to a real nuke.

Nuclear bombs are explosive devices, the Cain is a projectile weapon.  The two are based around entirely different principles.  You'd do just as well to compare the destructive potential of brick of C-4 with that of a gun.

Nashiktal wrote...

Wait you are relying on reapers being in the city when you nuke it? What if the reapers strike from orbit? Even with directionally charged nukes that really dampens the power to bear against the reapers. You also have to deal with reaper fighters tying up your own, (occuli) so you can't overly rely on fighters to deliver the payload.

No one said it would be easy, but flying escort for bombers and their payloads has been a standard mission for every fighter squadron since WWI.

Not that 'fighters' are the end all and be all of delivery systems, they are simply proof-of-concept that getting close enough to Reapers where nukes might be effective is possible.  I favor QE-controled 'kamikaze drones' myself.

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 12:48 .

[General User]

SandTrout wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

If nukes could kill reapers as easily as some of you think, they would have been defeated MANY cycles ago. We have to remember just how long the reapers have been doing this. They have probably seen all of our tricks before. Even with our new tech don't expect some simple solution.

This is probably the best arugment that I've seen. Someone somewhere would have certainly attempted a last-ditch nuclear solution, and it apparently didn't work.

Maybe, probably, almost certainly.  Really it depends on how they are used. 

If one tried to use nukes against the Reapers the way you would if you were bombing an enemy city, it probably wouldn't work.  But if you incorporate the awesome destructive potential nuclear weapons into weapons specifically designed to penetrate armor and kinetic barriers... whole other ball game.

Arijharn wrote...

But nukes need a transfer medium for heat to work.

If the nuke itself was designed to convert the heat of it's blast into high energy plasma then it would still deliver damage to target, even in a vacuum.

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:31 .

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...
Well a dreadnaught is more than twice the length of a cruiser, and since the main gun's firepower is determined by the length of the ship, a cruiser's firepower is probably a lot less than half a dreadnaught's. Actually, it's probably way less than that because otherwise two cruisers would be equal to a dreadnaught and therefore dreadnaughts would be pointless.

But let's go with say, 8 (about 1/4 of a dreadnaught) kilotons per shot. I counted 16 cruisers firing on Sovereign, feel free to check that yourself though. So assuming the main cannon fires every 5 seconds, that means Sovereign is taking in 256 kilotons every 5 seconds. Assuming the battle lasts 2 minutes (a very generous amount), and taking into account the fact that 8 cruisers were destroyed by Sovereign, that would mean it took in an approximate energy yield of 1.7 megatons. Keep in mind that this is a very generous estimate.

Modern nukes today can get as large as 50 megatons. More than enough to obliterate dozens of Reapers if they were all concentrated within a few miles of course. Even if nuke sizes never increased, 50 megatons is way too much for a Reaper to take.

Slight corrections here..You're assuming each ship has only 1 gun. (The Kilimanjaro class is armed with 156 broadside mass accelerator cannons)
IIRC, cruisers seem to have 2 forward guns.. and ther's also other weapons - such  as missiles and lasers.

True, there are other weapons. So let's say even with this generous estimate I gave, let's say Sovereign took in 5 megatons. To kill it, let's pretend we would need double that, so 10 megatons to take down a Reaper.

Modern nukes could still bring that down. And Sovereign is the largest known class of Reaper (as they range from 500-2000 km).