556 réponses à ce sujet

[Driveninhifi]

The problem with the Morrigan ending, and what Taleroth is getting at, I think, is two things:
One, it completely brickwalls her character development. She is developing into a layered, conflicted character.......and the game ends. If the sequel/expansion allows you to continue the relationship this really isn't an issue.
I do think the ending would have been much, much better served with a completely different set of dialog in the romance case. As it stands right now the acting jumps between her normal standoffish personality and her "i love you and it scares me" personality from line to line, and that feels unnatural.

Two, it isn't interactive. It forces the player into a passive acceptance of what is happening. By this point in the game the player is a very proactive person. It doesn't follow that they would just say "Well, ok, you can leave and I'll just stand here." I mean, the PC didn't give up when presented with the impossible task of raising an army and killing the archdemon - why would they simply accept their lover is leaving without an explanation?
You aren't even allowed to ask her why the PC can't come, or attempt to convince her to allow him to come with her. Those are two of the most obvious things someone would ask in that case, and the game doesn't allow you to ask them. I would suppose the writers don't want to show their hand yet, but it still feels very forced.

And I'd totally agree her agreeing to stay does not fit the character, but there are ways to keep the two together that aren't totally inane. As I've mentioned before, she could bring the PC with her for protection (though we aren't given enough information on what her motives are to know how feasible this is).

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:13 .

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

Taleroth wrote...Perhaps you can try discussing without strawmen?  My point in no way revolves around requiring her to stay.  Just that it be capable of changing based on previous choices.  In more ways than minor dialogue variation.

How is that a straw man?

Because you're presenting my argument as something it's not.

You're proposing that because she makes a decision which is entirely consistent with her disposition as presented throughout the whole game, any choices the player makes regarding her are meaningless? 

Her disposition actually changes throughout the game.  So you can't claim that the event is consistent with the dispotion.  The disposition changes, the event does not.  For it to be consistent, the even would have to change to.

There are several outcomes for her particular path in the game.

 Not really.  All but one of her endings revolves around a choice made at the very end of it, regardless of the choices before it.  With the exception that Flemeth might kill her.  She still goes off with a Child into the mountains or to Orlais.  This is wholly independent of every decision made prior.
 

I fail to see how any of your choices with her are meaningless

Because you fail to see how all choices lead to the same ending makes those choices meaningless, for some mind boggling reason.

...unless your ultimate point being that she should choose to stay with the PC, which would be even more out of character for her.

 Which it's not, hence strawman.

It could be anything.  Maybe she runs off without making the offer.  Maybe she doesn't run off, but chooses to walk away and she's stick around for the ceremony.  Perhaps she could turn on the PC and try to kill him.  Anything other than "you romanced her, befriended her, ignored her, killed her mother or didn't, she still makes the offer and runs away."

Look at Lelianna's ending.  She could be wearing leather or chantry robes, she could go off to seek Marjorlaine, or the Ashes, or run off with the PC.  Significantly different endings that all pay attention and tribute to the choices and developments that came before.

[tkaz85]

Her disposition changes, but her ultimate goal (getting the baby) does not. So it makes sense that she will make the offer regardless of your influence on her. Also, whether you are aliies, friends, or lovers, at no point does she ever hint at opening up fully to you. She has her secrets, and never reveals anything to you that she doesn't want you to know. So she will not tell you everything about the ritual regardless of your influence.



As for running away? She is at first scornful of love, and then afraid of it. Morrigan is someone who more than anything else wants to be in total control of her own destiny. Her opinions about the Chantry, the Circle, and the importance of power confirm this. Being in love ties you to someone else. You start to make decisions based on someone else. You begin to become concerned about someone other than yourself. As much as Morrigan may yearn for this, she is also deathly afraid of it because it contradicts everything she has ever known and been taught. So in the end, if she doesn't feel anything special towards you she completes her ritual and walks away. If she loves you, she completes her ritual and RUNS away. To her love is a risk she cannot afford to take.



In short, I do not believe that Morrigan's actions at the end of the game are incosistent with her character development (if it occured). I would definitely like to see more of this complex character in the future

[MassEffect762]

You're so predictable bioware. That can be both good and bad I guess.



You'll eventually A) have us kill her or turn her to the light side through blood,sweat and tears.

[marshalleck]

Pretty much like I said. Not getting your way with her doesn't mean her character isn't developed nor does it render your choices meaningless.

[Taleroth]

MassEffect762 wrote...

You're so predictable bioware. That can be both good and bad I guess.

You'll eventually A) have us kill her or turn her to the light side through blood,sweat and tears.

I'm half-expecting she gets offed in an Epilogue.  Though that is one possible ending to this game, I'm expecting it to be an official one later.  A la Viconia.

[daguest]

i don't sign, what happen is normal. Morrigan is not meant for happiness and love. It's not her purpose, not her destiny. Don't ask to a bridge to lead a war on Mars.

David Gaider wrote...



Just as a question, let's say you romanced Morrigan and you *did* chase after her once the story is over. What would you expect to happen if you found her?

I guess something really really bad. I doesn't like sad ending, but it should be. Maybe the child kill the mother, or she, with the help of the flemeth book, take the control of the child for some dark purpose. And she will be probably more dark than before, because she have experienced love, and lost it by her fault. Dark and tortured soul. Poor girl.

[Gegenlicht]

I'm sure someone else has said this already on the last 12 pages, but here goes...



Obvuously, some 18 years from now Flemeth is gonna pop out of the woodwork and try to take over godbaby's body. In the conversation where Morrigan reveals how Flemeth has kept alive for so long, she clearly states that a naturally more powerful host is preferable to Flemeth. How much more powerful than godbaby can you get? The real question is whether Morrigan knows this and is willing to give godbaby to Flemeth so she herself is spared (and you have to stop this from happening) or whether she comes running to you so you can protect godbaby from Flemeth once she realizes just how dumb she's been.



It's pretty much thrown in our faces that no matter what we do, we won't have seen the last of Flemeth yet.

[Ghrelt]

Morrigan is like Darth Vader. She will be the focus of a 3-game redemption arc.

[marshalleck]

Ellythe wrote...

Morrigan is like Darth Vader. She will be the focus of a 3-game redemption arc.

That would be horribly trite. I hope that's not the plan. :/

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:44 .

[PappaCube]

CimmerianJester wrote...

Yes and no.

Would I LOVE to track down Morrigan? Romance her further, explore that relationship more? Of course. She's a phenomenal character, and a relationship I would never have expected to enjoy as much as I did.

But DLC? No thanks. Give me Dragon Age 2. That's where you'll find more Morrigan content, pretty much guaranteed.

DLC is an add-on. Usually short-lived and with very little (if any) game-changing content. You might get an hour or so of play out of it, a cool sword, maybe a nifty suit of armor.

But for Morrigan? I want a whole game. She deserves better than 10 bucks worth of DLC to answer all our questions. I appreciate your frustration and sense of longing for more of my girl Morrigan, but I don't want her short-changed for content by accepting DLC of something as potentially EPIC as the hunt for True Love Lost as my lost son/daughter/demon.

No chance, man. Full game or nothing at all.

Agreed, totally.     And, yes, I have a real-life woman too.    

Starting a new game now to see if Leliana can have the same effect  !  

[MassEffect762]

What Gegenlicht and Ellythe said.



"softy"

[NaruUtsuro]

I would like Morrigan to re-join your party, and raise your kid with her happily, AND if she's killed, in the DLC, she comes back to life. And it should be about 5 bucks, tops. <3

[Ghrelt]

marshalleck wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

Morrigan is like Darth Vader. She will be the focus of a 3-game redemption arc.

That would be horribly trite. I hope that's not the plan. :/

I think the story possibilities would be interesting, but it would really anger some people if you finally "saved" her, just to have her die.  That would be truly awful.  So I get where you're coming from.

[Driveninhifi]

tkaz85 wrote...

Her disposition changes, but her ultimate goal (getting the baby) does not. So it makes sense that she will make the offer regardless of your influence on her. Also, whether you are aliies, friends, or lovers, at no point does she ever hint at opening up fully to you. She has her secrets, and never reveals anything to you that she doesn't want you to know. So she will not tell you everything about the ritual regardless of your influence.

As for running away? She is at first scornful of love, and then afraid of it. Morrigan is someone who more than anything else wants to be in total control of her own destiny. Her opinions about the Chantry, the Circle, and the importance of power confirm this. Being in love ties you to someone else. You start to make decisions based on someone else. You begin to become concerned about someone other than yourself. As much as Morrigan may yearn for this, she is also deathly afraid of it because it contradicts everything she has ever known and been taught. So in the end, if she doesn't feel anything special towards you she completes her ritual and walks away. If she loves you, she completes her ritual and RUNS away. To her love is a risk she cannot afford to take.

In short, I do not believe that Morrigan's actions at the end of the game are incosistent with her character development (if it occured). I would definitely like to see more of this complex character in the future

This is true, but you can also make the argument that she is never actually in control of her own destiny. The plan is Flemeth's all along, after all. She repeats everything Flemeth said to her without questioning it (all her "lessons," etc). You don't see her decide much for herself at all. This actually makes her more interesting, I think, as it adds to the character's depth. She really is lying to herself for a lot of the game (she DOES want to love the PC, she DOES want trinkets like the mirror, etc) and her inner conflict is what makes her compelling.

That said, it feels to me this could allow for a situation where her loyalties actually do shift to the PC. Not sure how it would play out because it would be easy to make this outcome very cliche. Her always being the tragic character that's afraid of love would be equally as cliche though. I do think it's in character for her and the PC to both unite and attempt to overthrow the Chantry or something along those lines though, and that would allow them to remain together.

[Vicious]

Im really surprised so many people love Morrigan. Did you play a total douche or did she sit at camp and you romanced her there? Seriously my first playthrough she sat at Camp and I romanced her, took her along only for a few things.



Next playthrough I took her along for everything and every 5 seconds she disapproved with a choice I made unless it was selfish.



Seriously she got mad when I refused to allow the Blood Mage to suck the life out of his slaves and give it to me.



Morrigan has empathy only for herself or those like her. Really the only time she seemed empathic was towards the Tevinter slaver and Jowan. She is quite corrupt and while she does slightly change if you romance her, its not enough to stop her from doing what she does.



Frankly I wonder if she really IS any different from her demon-possessed mother?



And yes as said in a previous post... Flemeth will be back. And I doubt she'll be happy.

[Acemath]

Morrigan needs her own game.This is the first time ever i really got attached to a game-character.That she looks great is a bonus.I really like her view on things.Like i said in another thread concerning Morrigan;She's the person who dares to say what 90% of the people think...

[Cyric133]

So many with the "real life" angle. Video games are my escapism, I don't want RL BS when I am trying to have fun. Give me the satisfying, if not happy ending dammit!



Back on topic, I don't think a DLC would do the situation justice, better off in an xpac or sequel, as mentioned.

[Setz69]

I think they did the Morrigan ending perfect. You give her gifts to make her love you, she feeds you lies and keeps you in the dark about everything, and in the end just up and leaves. Your absolute realistic relationship with the part of the female party played perfectly!



(I kid I kid, really)

[SageGaspar]

Taleroth wrote...

No, it's meaningless because it occurs regardless of any choice you make.  Did you have her +100 Friendly?  +100 Love?  -25 whatever?  Doesn't matter, it occurs all the same.  Therefore, it the choices are meaningless.

Meaning being derived by having effect.  When your choices have 0 effect, when an event occurs regardless of any other events, then there is no meaning to those choices.

It's not a matter of opinion.  I'm not voicing a preference for an ending.  I'm voicing for meaningful choices.

She leaves either way but it doesn't occur the same. My character had one last night of romance with her and she expressed some regret before the final battle, there were no hard feelings between them before they parted. Different from throwing Allistair or Loghain at her strictly to save lives or denying her plan outright and having her take off.

The fact that your character's friendship or love or clever choice of dialogue options can't flip a switch that changes Morrigan's nature or agenda just makes her a better character instead of a glorified relationship slider to me.

[Taleroth]

Vicious wrote...

Im really surprised so many people love Morrigan. Did you play a total douche or did she sit at camp and you romanced her there? Seriously my first playthrough she sat at Camp and I romanced her, took her along only for a few things.

Next playthrough I took her along for everything and every 5 seconds she disapproved with a choice I made unless it was selfish.

Seriously she got mad when I refused to allow the Blood Mage to suck the life out of his slaves and give it to me.

Morrigan has empathy only for herself or those like her. Really the only time she seemed empathic was towards the Tevinter slaver and Jowan. She is quite corrupt and while she does slightly change if you romance her, its not enough to stop her from doing what she does.

I can't help but draw comparisons between her and Aeryn Sun from Farscape.  Largely inspired by having the same actor.

It's not an entire stretch to compare them otherwise, however.  Their upbringings have similar seriousness and harshness.  Both are taught that love is a weakness.

Of course, Aeryn has her bouts of running away on occassion, as well.

[PappaCube]

David Gaider wrote...

Just as a question, let's say you romanced Morrigan and you *did* chase after her once the story is over. What would you expect to happen if you found her?

I find it hard to believe that you would honestly expect a reunion where you run towards each other across a field of grass, arms open to sweep each other up? Morrigan says, "you found me, you big silly! I know I told you to never come after me, but I was totally wrong!" And then you go off to raise your demon baby in a nice cottage with a white picket fence?

Or you think that, having found her, she will answer questions for you then? Do you intend to offer child support, what? I know that you were hoping for something *more* -- but that's part of the point. I obviously have my own ideas on where the story will go, but now I'm just really curious as to what sort of romantic reunion is being pictured here.

You have definately described what I dont want to see.  

Now, I know Flemeth has a huge role to play in whatever happens.   And I dont think I would even care to have full romance with Morrigan in the continuation.  I do think it would be cool to have some sort of play toward the romance they once shared and maybe my character would have a some sort of influence over Morrigan at a pivotal point in the "save the world from Flemeth" campaign.

I'm probably several play-throughs away from getting the full picture of what really happened between my character and Morrigan.  I am intrigued because I don't know if Morrigan really thinks the is giving birth to an untainted old-god or if she is just blowing smoke up my character's gullable back-side.  Maybe you can write both arcs into the expansion and make everyone happy?      We can aide Morrigan in a campaign to right our wrong (killing the demon-child), or you can aide the gray wardens in the same (including the death of Morrigan).   I don't see Flemeth dying, ever.  She is, afterall, an ancient...

[Walina]

God, please Mr Gaider don't make any DLC or expansion just around Morrigan unless you wanna have half your players to stop paying for DAO games



It's really a selfish wish from all those Morrigan fans, I would prefer a new adventure with new companions in any new expansion or a new companion to joi in a DLC like Jowan.

[Cyric133]

Taleroth wrote...

I can't help but draw comparisons between her and Aeryn Sun from Farscape.  Largely inspired by having the same actor.

It's not an entire stretch to compare them otherwise, however.  Their upbringings have similar seriousness and harshness.  Both are taught that love is a weakness.

Of course, Aeryn has her bouts of running away on occassion, as well.

Finally, someone else has noticed this as well (and wrote about it)!

And for those that haven't seen the series in its entirety, it ends rather nicely.

[Taleroth]

Cyric133 wrote...

Finally, someone else has noticed this as well (and wrote about it)!

And for those that haven't seen the series in its entirety, it ends rather nicely.

I would think any Farscape fan would seek out these connections.  It's a great series, I watch it all the way through at least twice a year.  Skipping only a few episodes such as "I, ET" or "Home on the Remains."