556 réponses à ce sujet

[AnnaV]

marshalleck wrote...

Unfortunately I didn't have Morrigan in my group at that part so I don't know the context of what she may have said

Nutshell definition of psychopath: lacking conscience or empathy for others. That doesn't fit Morrigan (though you may think it does if you never talk to her or explore her character), but it does fit several of the villain characters in the game.

And hots for? Please. It's a video game character.

so lay off calling me sad then for not agreeing with you if it's just a video game character

You left out the manipulation and control part too but hey, and I think it's you who's not read her quest dialogue,  I'm not talking about her campfire talks and conversation tree, I'm talking about her responses to player choices.  Which all support my assertion that she lacks conscience or empathy when plot dialogue comes up.

[marshalleck]

I didn't call you sad. I was refering to your (in my opinion) poorly formed opinion of the character. If you wish to take that personally it's on you.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:56 .

[mrao]

Wouldn't she have to lack empathy for everyone to be classified as such? She certainly has empathy for Sten and Jowan, even if the PC doesn't wish to use either of them.  It can be argued that, if the PC makes an effort to romance/be friends with Morrigan, she grows to show affection and eventually love. It can also be argued that her words aren't genuine, and we won't really know until a sequel. I like to think she is more than a generic evil witch, wouldn't be very interesting at all if she conforms to that archetype in the sequel.

Modifié par mrao, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[marshalleck]

mrao wrote...

Wouldn't she have to lack empathy for everyone to be classified as such? She certainly has empathy for Sten and Jowan, even if the PC doesn't wish to use either of them.  It can be argued that, if the PC makes an effort to romance/be friends with Morrigan, she grows to show affection and eventually love. It can also be argued that her words aren't genuine, and we won't really know until a sequel. I like to think she is more than a generic evil witch, wouldn't be very interesting at all if she conforms to that archetype in the sequel.

The ending with the ring where you feel her remorse and regret suggests to me that she does indeed have a conscience and sense of empathy.

[akachei]

I'm thinking this will be a sequel, for the simple reasons following:



The game is called Dragon Age: Origins. The old gods were Dragons. Ok, this is probably over-interpreting the title, but still.

[AnnaV]

mrao wrote...

Wouldn't she have to lack empathy for everyone to be classified as such? She certainly has empathy for Sten and Jowan, even if the PC doesn't wish to use either of them.  It can be argued that, if the PC makes an effort to romance/be friends with Morrigan, she grows to show affection and eventually love. It can also be argued that her words aren't genuine, and we won't really know until a sequel. I like to think she is more than a generic evil witch, wouldn't be very interesting at all if she conforms to that archetype in the sequel.

Yes.

Which is why I say her character just didn't do much for me, she possesses apparent empathy for Sten, Jowan, PC, but not for helpless slaves, golem victims or mages awaiting execution by templars to name some.  What I keep trying to say( ignored by cursory post readers looking for something inflammatory about their precious Morrigan) is that the running hot and cold "keeel them alll" contrasted with "nobody deserves this" does not fit with the Morrigan you talk to and learn more about at camp.
 
I'm romancing her with an evil char right now, pretty much at endgame and I don't have a problem with her being evil but I wanted a more convincing character for her.  Oh and I don't really see much similarity between her and Viconia apart from the arc of the romance a little

[mrao]

How do those decisions not conform to her character? Her survival of the fittest mentality seemed pretty clear from the start and pretty much all her views on plot points stem from that. Infact I think her personality reflects her upbringing quite well, if you listen to what she says about Flemeth, or the circle of magi. She thinks that only people who fight for their freedom deserve to be free, she even says the circle mages "cage themselves willingly". Anyway, I never really got a chaotic "kill them all" vibe from her. Would she still want to kill the slaves if there was no power to be gained in their sacrifice?

Modifié par mrao, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:30 .

[marshalleck]

I think it does fit if you pay attention to what Morrigan respects and what she does not. Power and survival. Slaves have no power or control over their lives and their survival depends on others. Cruel though it may seem, Morrigan feels no sympathy for them. Like she feels no sympathy for Mages who allow themselves to be dominated by Templars. Morrigan represents an inversion of modern western liberal (and I mean this in the classical sense of stemming from the enlightenment period, not political liberal/conservative sense) morality--she represents nature, "red in tooth and claw" where survival and the ability to exert one's will on their surroundings are paramount virtues. Does this make her evil or psychotic? Hardly, in my estimation. She clearly values life for example, but life which is both capable and willing to fend for itself. She does not respect subservience.



As I mentioned earlier, Howe and Uldred have no apparent moral code whatsoever. Morrigan does, but it's far from conventional.

[AnnaV]

mrao wrote...

She thinks that only people who fight for their freedom deserve to be free,

Therein lies my point, Jowan? Sten? Both having resigned themselves to death without a fight.

[marshalleck]

Jowan a blood mage who fought his way out of the Circle tower, and a Qunari warrior? Both immediately useful to the player's mission, and both far from helpless.

"If you cannot find a use for him..." etc

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:40 .

[mrao]

AnnaV wrote...

mrao wrote...

She thinks that only people who fight for their freedom deserve to be free,

Therein lies my point, Jowan? Sten? Both having resigned themselves to death without a fight.

I should have said, she respects those who she thinks have power, or aren't afraid of it. The very fact that Jowan is a blood mage, who acts in direct defiance of the templars would cause him to appeal to Morrigan, if only because she too is an apotate and hunted by templars. As a Qunari, sten not only looks like a person of power, but his blunt self awareness and complete lack of fear clearly impressed Morrigan ("Proud, Powerful creature" I believe, is what she used).  If she saw for example, a crying, broken man, I doubt she would have cared in the slightest.

Modifié par mrao, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:45 .

[Taleroth]

AnnaV wrote...

mrao wrote...

She thinks that only people who fight for their freedom deserve to be free,

Therein lies my point, Jowan? Sten? Both having resigned themselves to death without a fight.

Jowan only resigned himself after the resolution of the event with Conner.  While he was trapped in the cage, he still wanted to help.  Before then, he was fighting just to survive.

You don't see Morrigan standing up for him after he has his resignation.

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

Psychopath? What a sad little box you must live in if you think Morrigan is a psychopath.

Arl Howe is a psychopath. Uldred is a psychopath. Morrigan is far from being a psychopath. 

Psychopathy is characterized by hallucinations or delusions.  At its loosest, we can include positive symptoms of Schizoprenia, such as disorganized speach.

You may be thinking of sociopath.

[Taleroth]

Mithrundir wrote...

xcess wrote...
http://social.bioware.com/group/622/  Over 2000 posts about Morrigan alone

enjoy.

/sign

Is that group app not working or is it just me, joining doesn't work aswell as clicking any of the tabs.

Seems to be occuring for other groups, too.  I tried joining that one and then ran a test on a couple of the first ones to show up under the group list.  No go.

Edit: Seems to be an entire browser issue with a broken script.  None of my tabs work.  Some people still seem to be joining groups, so it may only be an IE8 issue.

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:04 .

[marshalleck]

Psychopathy?

I would actually object to simple labeling of anyone "psychopath" or "sociopath" if we really wanted to get clinical about it, which AnnaV apparently wanted to. I think they are very awkward terms for stuffing characters into an ill-fitting box.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:57 .

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

Psychopathy?

I would actually object to simple labeling of anyone "psychopath" or "sociopath" if we really wanted to get clinical about it, which AnnaV apparently wanted to. I think they are very awkward terms for stuffing characters into an ill-fitting box.

Labels are a big part of how we communicate.  Would we object to labelling a house red because it doesn't also describe the width of the doors?  Or it's not specific enough about the shade of red?  It doesn't specify who lives there, either.  But we can still find uses for referring to a red house.  We're not trying to stuff it into a red box, we're just trying to communicate a fact about it.

Similarly, psychopathy and sociopathy are useful for referring to groups of psychological disorders and the people who have them.

If you think they don't apply to the characters in question, that's one thing.  But don't discount the ability to communicate and describe for when they do apply.

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:05 .

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Psychopath? What a sad little box you must live in if you think Morrigan is a psychopath.

Arl Howe is a psychopath. Uldred is a psychopath. Morrigan is far from being a psychopath. 

Psychopathy is characterized by hallucinations or delusions.  At its loosest, we can include positive symptoms of Schizoprenia, such as disorganized speach.

You may be thinking of sociopath.

Well, actually, psychopathy is characterized by a lack of empathy. Hallucinations and delusions are clinical symptoms of other disorders and not psychopathy itself. There is no correlations between psychopathy or schizophrenia either.

However, Morrigan is not psychopathic by any means. When you first get her in your party and Flemeth mentions that she'll likely die before Morrigan sees her, Morrigan expresses regret. She does feel love and does care for people, she just hides it. There are interactions with Dog that suggest she may not hate it nearly as much as she pretends. 

I would also argue that she lacks glibness, parasitic lifestyle, promiscuous sexual behaviour and a host of other diagnostic criteria. Mostly, she's just a bastard.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:14 .

[marshalleck]

Oh I understand linguistics and symbolic language, don't get me wrong. If you would be so gracious Taleroth, allow me to revise my statement: I would object to labeling any character "psychopath" or "sociopath" as a convenient means to make the character fit preconceptions rather than making an effort to revise one's understanding of them.

To state it even more clearly, I get the distinct impression that AnnaV is simply eager to write Morrigan off as "generic bad person." Why? Who knows, and I don't know that it matters. But since this is a forum for discussing the game and arguing on the internet is one of my guilty pleasures, I'm indulging the discussion.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:24 .

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Well, actually, psychopathy is characterized by a lack of empathy. Hallucinations and delusions are clinical symptoms of other disorders and not psychopathy itself. There is no correlations between psychopathy or schizophrenia either. 

I double checked, you're right.  I confused psychopathy for psychosis incorrectly.

Pardon me while I kick my own arse.  That's a mistake I would have criticized someone else for making.

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:21 .

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...
I double checked, you're right.  I confused psychopathy for psychosis incorrectly.

Pardon me while I kick my own arse.  That's a mistake I would have criticized someone else for making.

Ah, check.

I'm not sure if Morrigan has any clinical psychosis, though I suppose I could see one making an argument for a couple. She does need some therapy though, and maybe a little lesson on how the world actually works. I shudder at the thought of her trying to raise a child. I'm so glad I kept Flemeth alive... oh the surprise of that reunion would be well worth the price of admission.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
I double checked, you're right.  I confused psychopathy for psychosis incorrectly.

Pardon me while I kick my own arse.  That's a mistake I would have criticized someone else for making.

Ah, check.

I'm not sure if Morrigan has any clinical psychosis, though I suppose I could see one making an argument for a couple. She does need some therapy though, and maybe a little lesson on how the world actually works. I shudder at the thought of her trying to raise a child. I'm so glad I kept Flemeth alive... oh the surprise of that reunion would be well worth the price of admission.

Oh, I doubt she does.  She probably has a disorder in there somewhere, but it's outside the parts of the DSM I'm familiar with.  I'd be half inclined to look at disorders first diagnosed in childhood.  I'm no Freud fan, but her mother is the first place I'd look.

[Driveninhifi]

I think you guys may be getting off topic. Also, keep in mind that Morrigan isn't consistent throughout the game, either. This isn't surprising, as she's really an emotional wreck of a creature and this is really her first time outside of the swamp and interacting with other people for a prolonged period. She's now trekking with the PC, whom she may be falling in love with (really doesn't know how to handle it), is forced to interact with this group of people (some she really doesn't like and do not like her - like Alistair) and is trying to keep her overarching goal secret - plus she's been away from the only home she's known. The game takes place over like a year, right? Not to mention how messed-up being raised by Flemeth clearly was.

Makes sense that she'd be a little (or a lot) crazy.

[Taleroth]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think you guys may be getting off topic. Also, keep in mind that Morrigan isn't consistent throughout the game, either. This isn't surprising, as she's really an emotional wreck of a creature and this is really her first time outside of the swamp and interacting with other people for a prolonged period. She's now trekking with the PC, whom she may be falling in love with (really doesn't know how to handle it), is forced to interact with this group of people (some she really doesn't like and do not like her - like Alistair) and is trying to keep her overarching goal secret - plus she's been away from the only home she's known. The game takes place over like a year, right? Not to mention how messed-up being raised by Flemeth clearly was.
Makes sense that she'd be a little (or a lot) crazy.

Inconsistency in video game characters I typically chalk up to various writers.  My understanding, as potentially wrong it may be, is that each scenario has different writers trying to follow an outline set by a lead writer or the designer of that scenario.  So they may be up to individual interpretations.

Like Alistair's freakout.  Jumping christmas, buddy.

[AnnaV]

And it's inconsistencies that I was trying to point out, not just attack the character for some random reason. I won't bother detailing it anymore but I found the generic and predictable responses to the major good/evil decisions really stripped away a lot of her complexity and the interest I had. She was still great for the chats, I just think most of the other characters were better. *shrug*

[Sarevok Anchev]

Dont you guys/girls talk bad about the mother of your Char in Dragon Age 2!

I mean... isnt this obviously going in the direction of Baldurs Gate 1(followed by 2) plot-and-storyline?

Seems like DA:O 1 was "just" the "Baldurs Gate Prologue Story".